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VideoGameVet posted:Here's one in operation: https://www.power-technology.com/projects/roosevelt-island-tidal-energy-project-new-york/ That's cool! I'm glad to see it being brought to the US. Wave power is also a great idea and IDK why we don't use it more. I think one of the limitations of these underwater turbines is that they need fast moving water which might be difficult to find any old where. But go offshore and the sea is almost always moving on Its surface. Anyone know much about water batteries to store grid energy?
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Dec 9, 2019 23:10
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UnknownTarget posted:That's cool! I'm glad to see it being brought to the US. The biggest issue is that the Ocean really does a number on equipment. Longevity of any of these systems is an issue.
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Dec 9, 2019 23:13
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https://weather.com/forecast/regional/news/2019-12-05-pacific-northwest-strange-dry-november-snowpack There's no drat snow in the PNW. We gonna be hosed next summer if this keeps up.
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Dec 10, 2019 00:33
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The smoke in Sydney is really bad today, the worst it's been. I can barely see to the end of my street. The trees out the back are being progressively swallowed up in the thick haze. https://twitter.com/Andytwit123/status/1204137170425892865 Here's an interactive map showing how much land has burned so far Helith fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Dec 10, 2019 |
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Dec 10, 2019 00:44
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UnknownTarget posted:Anyone know much about water batteries to store grid energy? It's better known as pumped hydro, and clocks in at ~$250/MWh, making it the cheapest grid scale storage option currently available by far. It is, however, subject to all the same restrictions as hydro power itself.
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Dec 10, 2019 01:06
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Sjs00 posted:It's gonna be 80 degrees out tonight. In December. 50F tonight, 20F tomorrow. Normal.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:29
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It was -1c on Saturday -20c on Sunday thanks to wacky wavy arm inflatable tube polar jetstream.
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Dec 10, 2019 02:46
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The Protagonist posted:It's better known as pumped hydro, and clocks in at ~$250/MWh, making it the cheapest grid scale storage option currently available by far. It is, however, subject to all the same restrictions as hydro power itself. Readily available water supply that can be pumped uphill?
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Dec 10, 2019 03:50
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UnknownTarget posted:Readily available water supply that can be pumped uphill? Reservoir available uphill, in a space that won’t displace either vulnerable or wealthy populations, or ecosystems that provide important ecological services, stuff like that. So if you’ve got a barren volcano caldera right next to your city.... it’s great! Of course, we all die if we don’t do these things so some sacrifices will have to be made.
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Dec 10, 2019 06:15
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tuyop posted:Reservoir available uphill, in a space that won’t displace either vulnerable or wealthy populations,... Goodbye, vulnerable populations.
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Dec 10, 2019 06:28
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UnknownTarget posted:Wave power is also a great idea and IDK why we don't use it more. I think one of the limitations of these underwater turbines is that they need fast moving water which might be difficult to find any old where. But go offshore and the sea is almost always moving on Its surface. That article's title is a bit misleading. I think the author doesn't know the difference between tide and current and would refer to someone as being "carried out to sea by the tide".  Tide is the vertical movement of the ocean as the moon (and to a lesser extent the sun) drags up a bulge of water and the earth rotates underneath it. Tides generate currents but currents in rivers have nothing to do with tides. Major ocean circulation currents like the Gulf Stream while moderately affected by tides are generated by other factors like temperature or density differences. The turbines are being installed in the lower end of a river so they are probably a) in fresh water and b) operating in a relatively constant flow of water travelling in one direction. Basically one of Rime's wind turbines scaled down and stuck upside down in a ditch. From the article it sounds like they are operating at a fairly constant range of 1.8 to 4.2 knots (not sure what that translates to in Imperial, it's not particularly fast but still faster than a (normal) human can swim). At any rate, it sounds like they're high enough up the river that they don't have to deal with the problem that true tidal power has to account for - dead periods twice a day while the tide is switching directions between rising and falling and taking the current with it. As the earth and moon change relative positions around the sun the tide also changes - the dead spot at slack water you had at 0400 last week is closer to noon today and the high/low height difference is smaller so the current at peak flow is 25% what it was last week. Not a problem if you have a really big battery bank. Assuming you could store extra energy between peak flows there are some awesome sites in the channels along the British Columbia coast. There are a number with current flows hitting 10-20+ knots. Spooky places sometimes - you go from mirror calm to raging-malestrom-I'm-just-going-to-climb-up-this-bluff-and-tie-myself-to-a-tree in the space of a couple of hours. At one site there's an island above the rapids called "Tremble Island". Spending a tide change on it is supposed to be a bit of a religious experience, although the vibrations coming through the rocks are a bit unnerving. Installing anything at these sites would be "interesting". Think of Rime's descriptions of bolting together wind generator towers, only you have 20 minute windows twice a day to get stuff nailed to the bottom. Hopefully the machine is 30 years maintenance free. I imagine one 30 meter deadhead (a waterlogged tree close to neutrally buoyant and barely floating) could do a lot of damage to a turbine if it hits it at 10 knots. The Gulf Stream can produce a reliable 3 knots, but it can wander around a bit and there's a lot of ship traffic off that coast which means more accidents involving anchors and trawl nets. Might want to check on the expected impact of Greenland's ice sheet melting before investing in that type of offshore power on the east coast. Some of the proposals to harvest wave power are probably easier to install than working in high current areas. One scheme uses "nodding ducks" that ride up and down on the swells and pressurize hydraulic fluid, pumping it to a shore station where it drives a generator. Always nice to keep the electrics out of the salt water but there's still the problem of periodicity and calm weather.
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Dec 10, 2019 07:13
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Helith posted:The smoke in Sydney is really bad today, the worst it's been. I can barely see to the end of my street. The trees out the back are being progressively swallowed up in the thick haze. Ho ho ho, this is only half as bad as a bad day in Delhi or Beijing. Except for that 1400 reading that's nuts.
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Dec 10, 2019 13:04
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Arglebargle III posted:Ho ho ho, this is only half as bad as a bad day in Delhi or Beijing. Oh, it got worse, there were readings of up to 2500 in a few areas later on.
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Dec 10, 2019 13:36
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Nocturtle posted:There was a recent article summarizing the projected impact of climate change on food production and fisheries across the world in a fairly dense graphic: that super red region under the sahara has more people than the US just ethiopia + nigeria is 300 million but hey i guess ethiopia is orange instead of red so everything should be ok
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Dec 10, 2019 15:42
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Hexigrammus posted:That article's title is a bit misleading. I think the author doesn't know the difference between tide and current and would refer to someone as being "carried out to sea by the tide". Yes let's spend longer than the time necessary to write and read effortposts such as this to deliberate on whether or not to save the planet because stockholder interests
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Dec 10, 2019 16:30
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Sjs00 posted:Yes let's spend longer than the time necessary to write and read effortposts such as this to deliberate on whether or not to save the planet because stockholder interests You're expending misdirected anger at him. He's just explaining the limitations, considerations and benefits of systems like these to someone (me) who asked a question. Individually, no one in this thread can do anything of real consequence. However, sharing his knowledge benefits those who stand to gain from understanding the issues in more detail. Basically, it's doing more than yelling at a guy on the Internet for explaining something to someone who's genuinely interested in it. What's your disagreement here anyway? He's spending a long time explaining a system instead of...?
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Dec 10, 2019 17:52
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UnknownTarget posted:You're expending misdirected anger at him. He's just explaining the limitations, considerations and benefits of systems like these to someone (me) who asked a question. Individually, no one in this thread can do anything of real consequence. However, sharing his knowledge benefits those who stand to gain from understanding the issues in more detail. My disagreement is overly complicated techniques like an 'downscaled upside down windmill stuck in a ditch' when the real answer is to abolish all usage of fossil fuel, cars, airplanes, manufacturing, offshore oil rigs, etc, which will never loving happen because number goes up. Yes I these little science projects like wave energy and wind energy are good and fine but we all know they're a drop in the bucket and way too little way too late. You're right I'm angry is all.
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Dec 10, 2019 19:03
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I'm sorry you're upset, it's reasonable to feel that way given the current circumstances.
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Dec 10, 2019 19:27
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Sjs00 posted:You're right I'm angry is all. We all are, really.
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Dec 10, 2019 19:54
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Sjs00 posted:My disagreement is overly complicated techniques like an 'downscaled upside down windmill stuck in a ditch' when the real answer is to abolish all usage of fossil fuel, cars, airplanes, manufacturing, offshore oil rigs, etc, which will never loving happen because number goes up. A massive cut in consumption makes stuff like Wind & Solar viable. Right now what happens is that we grow solar and wind sources AND grow carbon-based generation at the same time. So Mass Transit and e-Bikes and not so much e-Cars.
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Dec 10, 2019 20:12
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VideoGameVet posted:A massive cut in consumption makes stuff like Wind & Solar viable. Right now what happens is that we grow solar and wind sources AND grow carbon-based generation at the same time. I'm really trying think how this would work in places in the US like where I live where its currently in negative degree wind chill. I mean they cancel school for cold around here because kids standing at bus stops are in danger of frostbite and we have days when exposed skin freezes near instantly.
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Dec 10, 2019 21:11
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Oracle posted:I'm really trying think how this would work in places in the US like where I live where its currently in negative degree wind chill. I mean they cancel school for cold around here because kids standing at bus stops are in danger of frostbite and we have days when exposed skin freezes near instantly. Don't live there
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Dec 10, 2019 21:13
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Don't live there And people on the coasts will have to move because of sea level rise and hurricanes. Don't live in California, Washington or Oregon or neighboring states because of wildfires. Can't live in the south or southwest because the coming heatwaves will be deadly as wet bulb temps reach 35C. Where exactly are people supposed to live?
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Dec 10, 2019 21:17
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Oracle posted:I'm really trying think how this would work in places in the US like where I live where its currently in negative degree wind chill. I mean they cancel school for cold around here because kids standing at bus stops are in danger of frostbite and we have days when exposed skin freezes near instantly. I don't know if they have a bus service for the schools, but when my children were in school they didn't and so you have parents driving the children to school ... a massive line up of SUV's etc. <old-person> When I was a child (NY) this didn't seem to be an issue (the cold). And it still isn't in places like Finland etc. And I suppose this was true back in the day in ND and other freeze zones. </old-person> I don't know if we can solve the problem in the places you live in, but my children grew up in LA and San Diego and lack of bus service was a major waste of energy.
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Dec 10, 2019 21:20
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Oracle posted:And people on the coasts will have to move because of sea level rise and hurricanes. Don't live in California, Washington or Oregon or neighboring states because of wildfires. Can't live in the south or southwest because the coming heatwaves will be deadly as wet bulb temps reach 35C. Where exactly are people supposed to live? On the new coasts, of course
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Dec 10, 2019 21:23
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VideoGameVet posted:I don't know if they have a bus service for the schools, but when my children were in school they didn't and so you have parents driving the children to school ... a massive line up of SUV's etc. Yeah we had to wait out in the cold for the bus when I was a kid too. We have bussing but kids can wait quite awhile outside for it to show up (problem with having enough bus drivers, traffic, busses just plain not being able to start because of the cold) It does seem like we're getting colder cold snaps and hotter heat waves though from when I was a kid.
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Dec 10, 2019 21:26
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If "kids will die if they have to wait for the bus" is an issue, then school should very obviously be closed. I'm from inland Finland where -30c has historically been common, and I don't remember that being an issue, but ymmv. Anything above that isn't really an issue for children old enough to dress themselves
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Dec 10, 2019 21:30
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Ras Het posted:If "kids will die if they have to wait for the bus" is an issue, then school should very obviously be closed. I'm from inland Finland where -30c has historically been common, and I don't remember that being an issue, but ymmv. Anything above that isn't really an issue for children old enough to dress themselves We have poor kids who may not have the types of clothing that can hold up to that kind of weather. I know this may be shocking to you in Finland. 
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Dec 10, 2019 21:32
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Oracle posted:We have poor kids who may not have the types of clothing that can hold up to that kind of weather. I know this may be shocking to you in Finland. You’re right, rather than expanding social services as well as public transit, we just have to drive those kids to school forever and ever!
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Dec 10, 2019 21:35
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tuyop posted:You’re right, rather than expanding social services as well as public transit, we just have to drive those kids to school forever and ever! Yeah I mean I think a big point about climate adaptation has to be that we shouldn't go for the obvious, nihilistic answer. If Finland offers a misleading example, ask what people in Siberia do
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Dec 10, 2019 21:40
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Oracle posted:We have poor kids who may not have the types of clothing that can hold up to that kind of weather. I know this may be shocking to you in Finland.
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Dec 10, 2019 21:40
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VictualSquid posted:The fact that there are children who can afford cars to drive to school, but not winter clothes is the real problem. There aren't, they simply close school so that the gulf between rich kids who can drive to school when busses can't run and poor kids who can't doesn't widen by the poor kids being kept home. tuyop posted:You’re right, rather than expanding social services as well as public transit, we just have to drive those kids to school forever and ever!
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Dec 10, 2019 21:45
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Very uncool and bad. https://twitter.com/eilperin/status/1204483079798177792
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Dec 10, 2019 21:47
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Oracle posted:There aren't, they simply close school so that the gulf between rich kids who can drive to school when busses can't run and poor kids who can't doesn't widen by the poor kids being kept home.
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Dec 10, 2019 21:49
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about the only good thing about consumer society is that things like inexpensive but functional winter clothing is pretty easily available. if people cannot afford a sweater to survive the cold wait for the bus, that is not a problem with the bus imo
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Dec 10, 2019 22:00
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"It's too cold for kids to wait outside for the bus" is some insane poo poo to justify the hour long lines at pickup/drop off zones, and I walked to elementary school when I was growing up in NYC.
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Dec 10, 2019 22:33
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Sjs00 posted:My disagreement is overly complicated techniques like an 'downscaled upside down windmill stuck in a ditch' when the real answer is to abolish all usage of fossil fuel, cars, airplanes, manufacturing, offshore oil rigs, etc, which will never loving happen because number goes up. I fully understand your anger. In Canada these projects are becoming a distraction - Prime Minister Selfie Blackface is expected after confirming Canada's commitment to the environment in Madrid to return and announce the approval of the largest tar bitumen strip mine in Canadian history, Teck Frontier. This abomination will be emitting 6 megatonnes of carbon each year well past 2050, adding to the 131 megatonnes in additional tar sands projects that are approved and awaiting construction. Those are just the emissions from mining the crap, we don't count the emissions when it's burned because apparently that's someone else's problem. Tidal power and batteries might be great for getting small isolated villages in coastal B.C. off diesel generators but most of those are moving to small hydroelectric stations since in addition to scenic channels with fast moving currents we also do alpine lakes with picturesque waterfalls falling hundreds of metres into the ocean. Much easier to install and no fouling organisms making GBS threads Crazy Glue as an evolutionary strategy. Unfortunately these projects just give us a warm fuzzy feeling while Albertans pitch a wobbly and threaten to leave Canada if they aren't subsidized to ship dilBit faster. Which reminds me - I need to buy an EV so I can travel to the TMX dilBit pipeline expansion and get arrested. Tekne posted:Very uncool and bad. How thoughtful! Mother Nature is removing the overburden so our tar sand strip miners have better access. 
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Dec 10, 2019 22:34
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Hexigrammus posted:
You don't need an EV for that! Lots of us are going and we can give you a ride. 
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Dec 10, 2019 22:49
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How real is this possibility? https://twitter.com/ClimateBen/status/1204156771775979523?s=20
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Dec 10, 2019 23:09
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VideoGameVet posted:How real is this possibility? "Inconclusive"
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