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okay, pretend the word in my post was "wrong" instead.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:05
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Can do. We're in agreement then, he's not a wrong guy
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Dec 11, 2019 18:08
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his last line of dialogue in the film is literally him admitting that he was probably wrong.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:09
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cargohills posted:his last line of dialogue in the film is literally him admitting that he was probably wrong. "Maybe"
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Dec 11, 2019 18:10
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that the best defence he can offer of his entire philosophy that he sets up for himself is "maybe" is an admission that it's an act he uses to justify his own selfishness. kylo's philosophy of "letting the past die" is similarly not genuine.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:17
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The entire point of his character seems to be, "maybe we shouldn't trust this rogue we just met," and subvert the Han Solo trope, but it just comes out so weird. He's way too willing to help the characters in the beginning, goes in way too deep where even Solo would have bailed before they'd have to bribe him to continue, and then not only abandons the heroes to save his life, but some how profits from it, when he at best he should have only been able to save his own skin. I guess they succeeded at the goal of his character being a weirdo you shouldn't trust?
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Dec 11, 2019 18:20
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"Maybe" makes DJ the most nuanced character in the film. Not that that's a high bar.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:21
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TLJ doesn't really even try to engage with what DJ or kylo are saying, it's fine with just going 'oh but they're the bad guys so they're wrong' and like, how are they wrong? their viewpoints ultimately support each other, the cycle of endless star wars isn't going to stop because big corporations will continue to profit off of it no matter if red laser or green laser is in charge for the moment
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Dec 11, 2019 18:27
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Kylo's idea of stopping the conflict is to get his girlfriend to be a dictator with him. DJ's motto is "live free, don't join" while he tries his hardest to profit from the conflict in the same way as the arms dealers do. but the thing is with conflicts of this nature is you can't just pretend they don't exist. you can't have peace while the conflict is still going on and you ultimately will have to pick a side. they are pretending to be neutral, not to have chosen a side, but both are ultimately aligned with the fascists.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:48
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DJ and Rose are meant to be read as foils. Most of the Casino Night Zone plotline is exposition on the nature of the weapon traders on Canto Bight. Both DJ and Rose share a deeper perspective on what those weapon traders represent than Finn, the audience surrogate. DJ's explanation that the traders sold weapons to the Resistance is deeper than Rose's, but not incongruous. Rose and DJ's perspectives sync up to an extent, hence Rose allowing DJ to use her super special necklace; they understand each other. Where DJ and Rose diverge is their ultimate political conclusions. DJ believes that the Canto Bight people discredit both sides of the conflict, so it's best to just look out for yourself. Rose doesn't believe this because....well, who knows. The movie does want us to side with Rose because she's nice and DJ's mean, but that's neither satisfying nor persuasive.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:54
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Brother Entropy posted:and like, how are they wrong? their viewpoints ultimately support each other, the cycle of endless star wars isn't going to stop because big corporations will continue to profit off of it no matter if red laser or green laser is in charge for the moment The movie spends all of Rose and Finns screen time going to a planet where they discover that the Resistance and First Order are patsy's that the rich use to offload product onto while they laugh at them from their opulent resorts. Then the movie wants us to be mad at DJ for... not dying in a pointless war that is essentially the Hunger Games? How dare you DJ! You should be glad to die for the amusement of the rich!
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Dec 11, 2019 18:57
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Kylo is not actually interested in letting the past die. He's still LARPing his personal myth about his grandpa. He's still planning on killing his uncle. The line is some bullshit he tells Rey to try and persuade her to get on board with killing everyone she cares about and giving up on her own history so she can be his evil space queen.
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Dec 11, 2019 18:59
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galagazombie posted:The movie spends all of Rose and Finns screen time going to a planet where they discover that the Resistance and First Order are patsy's that the rich use to offload product onto while they laugh at them from their opulent resorts. Then the movie wants us to be mad at DJ for... not dying in a pointless war that is essentially the Hunger Games? How dare you DJ! You should be glad to die for the amusement of the rich! at least those horses got a few hours to run free before getting caught again #resistance
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Dec 11, 2019 19:00
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If you find it strange that Disney would make a bad sequel trilogy, maybe you should check out some of their other sequels. Or better yet: Don't! 
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Dec 11, 2019 19:01
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pospysyl posted:DJ and Rose are meant to be read as foils. Most of the Casino Night Zone plotline is exposition on the nature of the weapon traders on Canto Bight. Both DJ and Rose share a deeper perspective on what those weapon traders represent than Finn, the audience surrogate. DJ's explanation that the traders sold weapons to the Resistance is deeper than Rose's, but not incongruous. Rose and DJ's perspectives sync up to an extent, hence Rose allowing DJ to use her super special necklace; they understand each other. Rose doesn't believe that because she thinks it's good to fight fascists, and bad to not fight fascists. the resistance (and the republic before it in the prequels, and the rebellion) are not perfect (because they are liberals) but are better than the first order or the empire (who are fascists). cargohills fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 19:03
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cargohills posted:the resistance (and the republic before it in the prequels, and the rebellion) are not perfect (because they are liberals) but are better than the first order or the empire (who are fascists). Maybe.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:08
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I forgot if the movie left any wiggle room but is it established after the Rashōmon poo poo that Luke definitely tried to kill his nephew in his sleep for having bad thoughts?
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Dec 11, 2019 19:11
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That's what luke ultimately admits to in his revised account, though after he lied in his first rashomon there's really no reason to take his second story for truth other than that he manages to look really sad about it that time.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:13
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/movies/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-jj-abrams.htmlquote:So when Abrams was once again approached, amid a last-minute creative shake-up, about taking on “The Rise of Skywalker,” he balked. To be considered a success, the new movie must satisfy a seemingly impossible array of demands: It has to wrap up the current trilogy while tying together the many themes and plotlines of its eight predecessors while — oh, yes — working as a complete story on its own. For those same intimidating reasons, Abrams accepted the assignment. “Sticking this landing is one of the harder jobs that I could have taken,” he said. “But that was why it felt worthy of saying yes.” Why would you not plan out a set of movies that you knew would be a trilogy? It’s pretty clear that the films were made piecemeal.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:15
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It's a good article for those who like to lol at JJ for surequote:The filmmakers tried to shield the actors where possible from a behind-the-scenes process in which major plot elements and whole swaths of dialogue were being reworked up to and on the days they were filmed.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:16
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Kart Barfunkel posted:I forgot if the movie left any wiggle room but is it established after the Rashōmon poo poo that Luke definitely tried to kill his nephew in his sleep for having bad thoughts? Kylo's version is that Luke attacked him in his sleep for having bad thoughts. Luke's first account, where he lies, is that he went in to check on Ben's thoughts and then Ben attacked him because he was already evil. The last version is that Luke read the kid's mind and then wanted to murder his nephew in his sleep, to the point of drawing his weapon in the kid's room, but decided not to after Ben had already sensed the threat Zoran fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 19:17
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Kart Barfunkel posted:I forgot if the movie left any wiggle room but is it established after the Rashōmon poo poo that Luke definitely tried to kill his nephew in his sleep for having bad thoughts? considering the first order blew up 5 planets at once in TFA, it's a little worse than "having bad thoughts." but that's a failure of the writing. Kylo's supposed to be the big bad guy, and aided in the destruction of 5 planets, but since starkiller base's megabeam is never mentioned once by any character he just comes across as an angsty teen who stabbed his dad. Polo-Rican fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 19:19
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The most confusing thing about these new movies is the notion that theme is supposed to be correcting the things the past generation got wrong. They're so vague with these new characters that they fail in explaining how they're different enough from the previous characters to represent meaningful change. Is totally rejecting one's biological family, rather than reconciling the different aspects of them as Luke does in the original trilogy, truly supposed to make the difference? As it stands, if the rumors are true, I don't see how these movies meaningfully contrast the new generation with the previous ones, beyond being played by younger actors. Shooting lightning at your Nazi grandpa doesn't meaningfully comment on the generational divide much, if you ask me. Especially because these movies have presented the Skywalkers and Solos in a pretty negative light, their main contribution appears to be teaching one character how to lift rocks good, and another character to obey his commanding officers without question.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:31
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The best thing about the TROS leaks is that they (if accurate) ignore the galactic political situation completely and the movie ends with no real government running things
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Dec 11, 2019 19:31
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cargohills posted:Rose doesn't believe that because she thinks it's good to fight fascists, and bad to not fight fascists. the resistance (and the republic before it in the prequels, and the rebellion) are not perfect (because they are liberals) but are better than the first order or the empire (who are fascists). Okay, but you realize this is a false dilemma, right? Having to choose between fascists and a bunch of fractious children who literally cannot make a decision to save their lives sucks. TLJ could have conveyed DJ's choice to abandon both sides by having him found a third faction that's better than both of the others, or request to have his family freed from slavery, but TLJ frames his decision as straightforwardly selfish and wrong. From this, we can gather the movie is making one of two arguments: 1) Yours, that solidarity is important enough to require choosing the lesser of two evils; or 2) It's not a false choice, the Resistance is inherently good. While I disagree with 1, I would respect it, but I think it's more likely the movie believes 2. The Resistance's relationship with slave-owning arms dealers is insufficient to make it bad. There's no reason for Rose or anybody else to think that the Resistance is actually worth supporting instead of finding some other solution.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:32
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I'd love to know what was so horrible that, a Jedi Master, the person who showed down with the Emperor and Vader impulsively wanted to murder his nephew in his sleep when he saw his thoughts.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:33
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ROTJ Luke: “I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully.That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now.” TLJ Luke: “Somebody had a BAD DREAM! TIME TO DIE!” No wonder Hamill is so disillusioned with Star Wars now. FlamingLiberal posted:The best thing about the TROS leaks is that they (if accurate) ignore the galactic political situation completely and the movie ends with no real government running things Now I want to see a sequel that deals with anarchism.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:39
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the theme of the sequel trilogy is very simple to understand once you see it.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:40
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:the theme of the sequel trilogy is very simple to understand once you see it. *puts a curling iron in my eyes and ears*
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Dec 11, 2019 19:41
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TerminalRaptor posted:I'd love to know what was so horrible that, a Jedi Master, the person who showed down with the Emperor and Vader impulsively wanted to murder his nephew in his sleep when he saw his thoughts. It made sense to me for Luke to momentarily give in to rage and despair at the idea of yet another Skywalker becoming corrupted, his own nephew who he trained no less, and possibly upending everything he and his friends had saved as well as probably hurting a lot of people and making a lie of the prophecy that Luke himself was supposed to fulfill. We see the same thing in ROTJ - Luke loses his poo poo at the idea that Vader and the Emperor would go after Leia because of his own refusal to join them and his inability to stop them. In his rage he beats the brakes off of Vader and just barely stops himself from executing his own father. In TLJ he comes to his senses and realizes that he can't actually harm his nephew for things he hasn't yet done, that there might still be good in him and Luke just has to help him find it, but by then Ben is threatened and the choice has been made for both of them. I think it also dovetails with Yoda's commentary on Luke in TLJ; he's always so focused on the future that he overlooks the possibilities of the present. Maybe if he had just talked to Ben instead of believing in his visions of an uncertain but dark future things could've been different. However, that might just be a sympathetic reading because I liked Luke's characterization in TLJ. Pollyanna posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/movies/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-jj-abrams.html https://twitter.com/coopercooperco/status/1204767459397554188 What is going on behind the scenes that this kind of stuff is being allowed out in public? Is it just a campaign of "hey we've righted the ship, come back!" or trying to manage expectations in the hope that people won't hold the poo poo sandwich of whatever TROS ends up being against future Star Wars projects? Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 19:45
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FlamingLiberal posted:The best thing about the TROS leaks is that they (if accurate) ignore the galactic political situation completely and the movie ends with no real government running things The first order is still in charge isn't it
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Dec 11, 2019 19:45
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Gonz posted:ROTJ Luke: “I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully.That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now.” he cuts his father's hand off in a rage after saying that first line there. pospysyl posted:Okay, but you realize this is a false dilemma, right? Having to choose between fascists and a bunch of fractious children who literally cannot make a decision to save their lives sucks. TLJ could have conveyed DJ's choice to abandon both sides by having him found a third faction that's better than both of the others, or request to have his family freed from slavery, but TLJ frames his decision as straightforwardly selfish and wrong. From this, we can gather the movie is making one of two arguments: the resistance is implicated in buying arms (which they'll have to supply somehow) and make some tactical blunders but are otherwise portrayed as good-hearted and genuine. they come across as a hell of a lot better than the corrupt republic, and even that is worth fighting to restore according to the six films which George Lucas was involved in. (and, not to go too into real politics talk, there have in real life been wars fought by bad people against much, much worse people, and in the same way stepping back from them would not have helped anyone.)
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Dec 11, 2019 19:46
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the comments from some of the cast upset that they were separated in tlj as if thats rian johnsons fault is making me go crazy. Jj abrams is the one who put finn in a coma and had rey go find luke by herself!! lol
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Dec 11, 2019 19:47
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The knives are out for rian, so to speak. His trilogy was already DOA but disney allowing a cast/crew beatdown on him feels especially RIP
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Dec 11, 2019 19:48
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Jerkface posted:the comments from some of the cast upset that they were separated in tlj as if thats rian johnsons fault is making me go crazy. Sure but it’s not like Finn couldnt have woken up and mathemagically found rey somehow. Actually Finn faffing around while Luke tries to train Rey sounds kind of rad.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:53
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https://twitter.com/coopercooperco/status/1204782028987744256 lmao
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Dec 11, 2019 19:56
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Let Rian Johnson make the Teräs Käsi movie in the vein of Bloodsport.
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Dec 11, 2019 19:56
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TerminalRaptor posted:I'd love to know what was so horrible that, a Jedi Master, the person who showed down with the Emperor and Vader impulsively wanted to murder his nephew in his sleep when he saw his thoughts. the first order blowing up five planets simultaneously
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Dec 11, 2019 19:57
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Get excited for the Jon Favreau focus grouped rear end new trilogy coming in 2022, probably.
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Dec 11, 2019 20:05
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Disney's got another minefield to navigate once these actors and production crew start spilling the beans on the ST production trouble once the statute of limitations expires on Disney retribution. But by then Disney should be in a position to release another salvo of SW movies.
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Dec 11, 2019 20:08
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