Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

The Walrus: Jul 9, 2002; by Fluffdaddy

Gumdrop Larry posted:

All you really had to do with Luke if you wanted the same basic premise of him being in exile was to have him try the same pacifism route that he did with Vader on Kylo. The culmination of his character growth in the OT was taking the moral high ground and sticking to his conviction of saving his father in spite of both the good guys and the bad guys saying he needed to pick someone to kill. His punk rear end nephew comes along and is showing signs of being a bad guy and the believable response for his character is to say "I won out with kindness when faced with the most evil man in the galaxy, I'm older and even wiser now so I can do it again." It doesn't work, and now you've got Luke questioning himself and what's right. Paint him as not a cynical rear end in a top hat but contemplative, and you're arriving at a similar destination without any weird nonsensical invalidation of that aforementioned development.

See, I read all this into Luke's motivation already. It's not a movie about Luke, Luke is NOT the last jedi. All this stuff doesn't need to be spelled out to be inherent in the characterization. Why wouldn't that make him a cynical rear end in a top hat?

edit: like yeah, Luke failed. His actions at the end of this film did not reverse that. Luke did not think that he was able to do any good in turning Ren back at that point, and he sacrificed himself to buy the resistance a few more minutes to escape. pretty depressing, I can see why people didn't like it. Luke failed in ESB too, the only difference is now it's someone else's job to take the torch and move forward. Again, this goes back to the basic fundamental point of the movie.

The Walrus fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Dec 11, 2019

# ? Dec 11, 2019 21:49

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 7, 2024 17:47

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

Colonel Cancer posted:

And what's up with that evil hole on Luke's island anyways?

Everybody has one of those, some people like Rey are interested in exploring them, but most would rather just stay away.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 21:49

Mooey Cow: Jan 27, 2018; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS; Pillbug

Colonel Cancer posted:

And what's up with that evil hole on Luke's island anyways?

That's the Ancient Jedi Latrine. It's full of poo poo.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 21:53

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

The Walrus posted:

It's fine to like the movie! But it's just objectively bad

# ? Dec 11, 2019 21:53

Colonel Cancer: Sep 26, 2015; Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

Sydin posted:

Everybody has one of those, some people like Rey are interested in exploring them, but most would rather just stay away.

But Luke found this evil hole and decided "hey! I'm gonna build a house and live on top of it :downsa:

" and isn't that suspicious for a failed Jedi who quit the order?

# ? Dec 11, 2019 21:56

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

The obvious and cheap edited empty quote joke aside though, I actually don't think there's such a thing as an "objectively" bad movie. Cinema is an art form and trying to put objective qualifiers on art is a deep dark rabbit hole that leads to bad places very fast. I'm not surprised many people like TLJ and hey good for them, glad it brought some people joy. Personally I found it to be a complete mess that dragged on way too long and didn't really elicit any enjoyment at all, and I've now learned my lesson and am not going to go see ROS because I don't want to waste another two and a half hours of my time on media I'm fairly positive I won't end up enjoying.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 21:57

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

The Walrus posted:

But it's just not objectively bad, and it makes an awful more sense than people like to pretend.

If we just pretend to agree with this will you shut the gently caress up already?

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:00

Mooey Cow: Jan 27, 2018; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS; Pillbug

I'm telling you, he lives in the shithouse! Luke is trying to tell Rey not to go down the toilet but when you gotta go you gotta go I guess.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:00

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Just Chamber posted:

- Have Rey actually team up with Kylo at the end. Actually embrace the whole abandoning the Jedi and Sith code and go towards the grey. The books stay burnt.

i agree with everything but this. Kylo never changes really, he just switches from "being the best edgelord sith man ever" to "gently caress it burn it all down because I got hosed in the past and i refuse to learn from mistakes, so i am just gonna erase it". he is still a darkside monster, he is just his own monster now instead of snokes. rey comes to terms with her past and is able to move on from it, kylo can't which is why he just projects.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:00

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

Colonel Cancer posted:

But Luke found this evil hole and decided "hey! I'm gonna build a house and live on top of it " and isn't that suspicious for a failed Jedi who quit the order?

It's another lazy Yoda parallel. Yoda lived in a remote location with an evil cave that showed you visions, so Luke gets one too.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:01

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

Oh man guys. GUYS! I had just an epiphany. You know we may not like TLJ, but really it's not objectively bad. Maybe we've been too harsh. It's just Star Wars after all!

Wow thanks The Walrus. You really opened our eyes. You're job is done! There is no reason for you to remain here anymore!

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:02

LGD: Sep 25, 2004

The Walrus posted:

there's a lot here but real quick

- no something being widely hated is not a sign it was interesting or unique, but when it is literally the exact same story that people have already seen and loved and this time they hate it that signals to me that it challenged them in some way despite being basically the same

consider: what you think of as "the same" isn't really the same thing at all despite some superficial structural similarities

for example: one thing can be enjoyable because it's was well executed and had something of a point, while a similar thing is poorly executed and is profoundly unsatisfying on any emotional or intellectual level

quote:

- people in this thread are arguing that no, it's throwing it into the water which is what they hated. a couple people have said 'it would have been better if he just threw it at his feet' lol. If you disagree, cool.

I suspect most of those people would also agree that the toss at least serves to raise questions about what's going on with Luke, and if the film had provided satisfying answers a perhaps-slightly-too flippant moment wouldn't matter at all

instead, it's just the start of our interactions with a grossly out of character Luke, which all the fart-huffing about "symbolism" in the universe doesn't fix

quote:

- Yes, Luke has changed. personally I think that the events that are described and the time that has elapsed since ROTJ are more than enough to account for a change in personality. There are enough elements of himself that are so clearly the same (a lot of the same characterization elements that people complain about) that I can still see the Luke of the original trilogy, just changed. It's not all spelled out but there's enough there that it makes sense to me. I take Luke at his word that he saw murder in Ren's heart and saw that he was beyond redemption. If we believe that Luke really is the same guy from the OT, why wouldn't that be true? Obviously he wouldn't just murder his nephew. But people seem to want to see Luke in at once the best light saying he should have been more like he was in the OT while at the same time ascribing the worst possible interpretation of the flashback scene to him.

no, absolutely not - "time elapsing" is not an explanation for a complete inversion of redemptive hero into a child-murdering monster, and you're "taking him at his word" in something that is completely out of character and the film doesn't even attempt to actually explain or justify

if Luke was the same guy from the OT he obviously wouldn't just try to murder his nephew - but in TLJ he does, and the film "explains" it with a throwaway line

this isn't a problem with unsophisticated moviegoers needing Luke to be a perfect hero that Brain Geniuses What Understand Film see past, it's an issue with TLJ being a complete shitheap of a film

quote:

- This isn't a story about Luke. It's a story about Luke passing on the torch. A focus on 'what's luke been up to' beyond what we get is just not what this movie is or what it's trying to be.

duh

and that's a major problem with TLJ as a film - if we have a beloved character passing on the torch then you probably don't want to make him so radically different that the thing the audience is most curious about is how he could possibly have ended up the way he did
but yet that's what TLJ decided to do, and instead of addressing that at all we got the world's slowest, smallest scale, and least tense boat chase interspersed with prequelesque casino hijinks (none of which ultimately really mattered to either the characters or the plot)

LGD fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 11, 2019

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:02

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Colonel Cancer posted:

But Luke found this evil hole and decided "hey! I'm gonna build a house and live on top of it " and isn't that suspicious for a failed Jedi who quit the order?

i feel like their are probably weird dark side/light side caves/holes/trees/etc all over the galaxy. but yeah its lazy yoda thing.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:04

Just Chamber: Feb 10, 2014; WE MUST RETURN TO THE DANCE! THE NIGHT IS OURS!

The Walrus posted:

He really doesn't act all that weird compared to Yoda. He is standoffish but his move is basically to just ignore Rey and go about his usual day.

Nah it's pretty loving weird dude. The scene after the lightsaber toss is him drinking the loving blue milk with an alien practically moaning in ecstasy that it's being milked. He might not be Yoda crazy but he's definitely directed in a way where we're supposed to think this guy has lost it, but he actually hasn't so it's pointless.

The symbolism of Luke throwing the saber away is obvious yes, how it was handled, the way it was played for humor is the poor part. We get this dramatic tension, the music swells, then it cuts off and he yeets it away, like i said, add a slide whistle after that and it would fit in perfect. Plus we then get a nice shot of some Porgs kicking it around.

Yes the symbolism is there, that he's done with the jedi code etc, but there are a million better ways they could have done that scene.

Colonel Cancer posted:

But Luke found this evil hole and decided "hey! I'm gonna build a house and live on top of it " and isn't that suspicious for a failed Jedi who quit the order?

If you wanna be nerdy (and hey this is the perfect place for that) then the explanation might be the same reason that Yoda hid on Dagobah, which was that the dark side energy masked his presence from those hunting him, as otherwise he was a beam of light to the Sith so it cancelled that out. So Luke hiding near Scary Hole serves the same purpose.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:04

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

LGD posted:

nah

as a protip: being widely hated is not actually evidence that something is "done interestingly" or "unique," much less that it was good

Are we still talking about the lightsaber-throwing thing? Outside of a small number of very online people, I'm not convinced that that's widely hated.

quote:

the part people hated was that the answer was "no reason, the person making this movie just doesn't understand/care about Luke as a character and decided to write him as someone completely different"

There were reasons. The movie takes time to show those reasons. It takes time to show that Luke Skywalker isn't the same dude he was 30 years ago, which shouldn't really be that surprising considering that Luke Skywalker also wouldn't have ever voluntarily gone into exile. People change, it's fine and normal

Colonel Cancer posted:

But Luke found this evil hole and decided "hey! I'm gonna build a house and live on top of it " and isn't that suspicious for a failed Jedi who quit the order?

The jedi temple was there long before Luke showed up. Luke probably didn't even build anything, he's just a squatter

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:07

Infinite Karma: Oct 23, 2004; Good as dead

The dumbest part of how Luke treated Kylo in the past and even more in the present is comparing Kylo to Vader.

Vader was a robotic, irredeemable monster with no compassion and no hesitation to do evil. He liked being Darth Vader. And Luke still saw goodness in him and drew it out and redeemed Vader.

Kylo is struggling hard with being the bad guy. He feels the pull of the Light Side (which is dumb in itself) and has to remind himself to be an edgelord. He's constantly on the edge of a face-turn but keeps loving up. If anyone looks redeemable, it's Kylo Ren, and Luke not only doesn't try, he pushes him over the edge the first time, and then dunks on him the second time.

Colonel Cancer posted:

And what's up with that evil hole on Luke's island anyways?

Yoda hid near the dark side cave because it made it harder to notice his force "aura" or whatever, Luke presumably did the same thing, that's just a basic repeat of ESB.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:07

Mooey Cow: Jan 27, 2018; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS; Pillbug

Chomp8645 posted:

Oh man guys. GUYS! I had just an epiphany. You know we may not like TLJ, but really it's not objectively bad. Maybe we've been too harsh. It's just Star Wars after all!

Wow thanks The Walrus. You really opened our eyes. You're job is done! There is no reason for you to remain here anymore!

Yeah I tried this tactic on a JW once. You'd think if you just tell them "yep I sure do believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ok bye now" they'd go away but no, then they start dragging you to all these meetings and you gotta sing a bunch of lovely songs, they hook you up with increasingly weird crazies, ritually slaughter a few goats, and before you know it you're the one knocking on people's doors selling e-subscriptions to The Watchtower.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:09

The Walrus: Jul 9, 2002; by Fluffdaddy

Chomp8645 posted:

Oh man guys. GUYS! I had just an epiphany. You know we may not like TLJ, but really it's not objectively bad. Maybe we've been too harsh. It's just Star Wars after all!

Wow thanks The Walrus. You really opened our eyes. You're job is done! There is no reason for you to remain here anymore!

its way weirder to me to lurk a thread for a movie that you hate a year after the fact but you do you pal

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:10

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

Infinite Karma posted:

Kylo is struggling hard with being the bad guy. He feels the pull of the Light Side (which is dumb in itself) and has to remind himself to be an edgelord. He's constantly on the edge of a face-turn but keeps loving up. If anyone looks redeemable, it's Kylo Ren, and Luke not only doesn't try, he pushes him over the edge the first time, and then dunks on him the second time.

The Walrus posted:

its way weirder to me to lurk a thread for a movie that you hate a year after the fact but you do you pal

Technically this thread is supposed to be about Rise of Skywalker but everybody already knows that movie is going to be dogshit so there's nothing really interesting to discuss about it.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:12

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

The Walrus posted:

its way weirder to me to lurk a thread for a movie that you hate a year after the fact but you do you pal

This rubbish argument doesn't even work on the surface because this is NOT a The Last Jedi thread lol.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:14

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

it's nice to see billy dee getting work

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:15

LGD: Sep 25, 2004

QuarkJets posted:

Are we still talking about the lightsaber-throwing thing? Outside of a small number of very online people, I'm not convinced that that's widely hated.

that post is very clearly not talking exclusively about the lightsaber throwing thing - if your understanding of context is that bad how are you discussing film?

quote:

There were reasons. The movie takes time to show those reasons. It takes time to show that Luke Skywalker isn't the same dude he was 30 years ago, which shouldn't really be that surprising considering that Luke Skywalker also wouldn't have ever voluntarily gone into exile. People change, it's fine and normal

it does not actually show those reasons at all

Luke obviously being a completely different person is not a demonstration of why he's a different person, and "30 years passed" is not remotely an adequate explanation for a transition from redemptive hero who internalized and surpassed the wisdom of his teachers into a cynical, abusive, child-murderer who has nothing to offer anyone

nor are "themes" or "symbolism" (which, when cited on their own, amount to an admission a character has been contorted beyond recognition to further other goals)

LGD fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 11, 2019

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:15

Comfy Fleece Sweater: Apr 2, 2013; You see, but you do not observe.

Regardless of recent movies, this is cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw88nyiuo6Q

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:17

The Walrus: Jul 9, 2002; by Fluffdaddy

QuarkJets posted:

Are we still talking about the lightsaber-throwing thing? Outside of a small number of very online people, I'm not convinced that that's widely hated.

No that conversation was about how Luke's story is essentially a mirror image of the major points of Obi Wan's

LGD posted:

no, absolutely not - "time elapsing" is not an explanation for a complete inversion of redemptive hero into a child-murdering monster, and you're "taking him at his word" in something that is completely out of character and the film doesn't even attempt to actually explain or justify

if Luke was the same guy from the OT he obviously wouldn't just try to murder his nephew - but in TLJ he does, and the film "explains" it with a throwaway line

this isn't a problem with unsophisticated moviegoers needing Luke to be a perfect hero that Brain Geniuses What Understand Film see past, it's an issue with TLJ being a complete shitheap of a film

duh

I'm gonna edit out the stuff that I think we just subjectively disagree on and speak to this real quickly, but Luke never tries to murder his nephew. he considers it and then pays the rest of this life for it. And then we move back to subjective disagreement in that I don't think any of this is out of character for him. He's old and he's tired and he's not the young idealistic person that he used to be, who is?

Infinite Karma posted:

The dumbest part of how Luke treated Kylo in the past and even more in the present is comparing Kylo to Vader.

Vader was a robotic, irredeemable monster with no compassion and no hesitation to do evil. He liked being Darth Vader. And Luke still saw goodness in him and drew it out and redeemed Vader.

Kylo is struggling hard with being the bad guy. He feels the pull of the Light Side (which is dumb in itself) and has to remind himself to be an edgelord. He's constantly on the edge of a face-turn but keeps loving up. If anyone looks redeemable, it's Kylo Ren, and Luke not only doesn't try, he pushes him over the edge the first time, and then dunks on him the second time.

Yoda hid near the dark side cave because it made it harder to notice his force "aura" or whatever, Luke presumably did the same thing, that's just a basic repeat of ESB.

Yeah, Luke fails. This movie is about him failing. Over and over again. Continually with really no moment of redemption at the end. This is not a flaw in the film. It's a flaw in Luke's character, which makes him interesting. Luke never really gets a chance to try and turn Ren back, as soon as he realizes he's turned he never gets another chance to speak to him until the end of TLJ, when his motivation is only to delay the first order, not to turn Ren back to good. It's not his place in the movie to succeed, it's Rey's, in the third movie.

The Walrus fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Dec 11, 2019

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:18

Just Chamber: Feb 10, 2014; WE MUST RETURN TO THE DANCE! THE NIGHT IS OURS!

Dapper_Swindler posted:

i agree with everything but this. Kylo never changes really, he just switches from "being the best edgelord sith man ever" to "gently caress it burn it all down because I got hosed in the past and i refuse to learn from mistakes, so i am just gonna erase it". he is still a darkside monster, he is just his own monster now instead of snokes. rey comes to terms with her past and is able to move on from it, kylo can't which is why he just projects.

I think we would have had a MUCH better third movie if there was no Sith, no Jedi. You're right he doesnt change in TLJ but you just know we're going to get a Kylo redemption story in this new film so some evidence of change would have been nice.

A Kylo that realised that in fact he'd been manipulated by Snoke, that being rah rah evil, kill everyone, kill your dad etc wasnt the way but also Luke's teaching of being pure good and purging emotions/ the typical jedi poo poo was also wrong would be so much more interesting than the NEW DARK LORD we got at the end of TLJ. We know he has some light in him from his conversations with Snoke so it makes some sense he'd think the middle was more where he belonged.

You could have had Rey join with him at the end of TLJ because she's manipulated or is so disheartened by Luke's teachings, the reveal she's a nobody etc then at the beginning of this new film perhaps she's realising Kylo is loving nuts, but hey Luke is still alive and he plays a role at bringing Rey back in the first act of the film (perhaps here is where he sacrifices himself) and she runs back to The Resistance etc. I'm spitballing but i do think that team up was a much better plot point than what we got.

Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Dec 11, 2019

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:19

Just Chamber: Feb 10, 2014; WE MUST RETURN TO THE DANCE! THE NIGHT IS OURS!

Also John Boyega dislikes The Last Jedi now.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:20

Nice Guy Patron: Jun 29, 2015

Star Wars.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:23

The Walrus: Jul 9, 2002; by Fluffdaddy

Just Chamber posted:

Also John Boyega dislikes The Last Jedi now.

JB actually did get done dirty because he's supposed to be a main character in the movie and he has basically no arc at all. I agree with this. It's by far my biggest issue with the movie.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:23

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

my dog died im sad posted:

Star Wars.

my dog died im sad posted:

Star Wars.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:24

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

my dog died im sad posted:

Star Wars.

WRONG! Here's some long winded bullshit why NOT Star Wars.

- The Walrus

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:24

Nice Guy Patron: Jun 29, 2015

Yeah, but...you know, Star Wars.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:25

Nice Guy Patron: Jun 29, 2015

Star? Wars?

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:25

Sydin: Oct 29, 2011; Another spring commute

If Finn doesn't turn out to be force sensitive in ROS and have an epic fight where he kills Phasma who somehow isn't actually dead with a lightsaber I will be shocked.

# ? Dec 11, 2019 22:25