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Legin Noslen posted:I don't think anybody ITT thinks that. (That Roachshack was cool and good.) Supreme Allah posted:From the trailers there's obviously a Cult of Rorschach. Count me on that side of the situations. e: pew pew
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Dec 11, 2019 21:32
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The only problem with it is that there’s not constant CGI blue glow around him, and that’s not actually a problem really. He looks fine.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:33
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Raxivace posted:FWIW Lindelof doesn't believe Rorschach was a white supremacist. i mean i think he is racist but not in the same way the 7K is. he is super broken little man who hates himself and humanity in general and leans into regressive monster politics because he is broken self hating gently caress and as Alan moore said he basicaly was kinda happy when Manhattan blew him apart. now his insane writings have basicaly become SIEGE for the watchman universe.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:36
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Colonel Whitey posted:The only problem with it is that there’s not constant CGI blue glow around him, and that’s not actually a problem really. He looks fine. I wonder how many of them have only seen the movie and don't realize the show costumes are much more derivative of the comics and look pretty campy overall.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:03
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King Of Coons posted:e: pew pew Oh man some of that dude's posts lol Supreme Allah posted:Rorschach was never racial was he? Fascist sure but only against criminals. He killed lots of white baddies. Supreme Allah posted:Nooo.. he hated anyone indulging in their impulses, he hated the idea of sex in general, but racist? Supreme Allah posted:I think the racial stuff is being over-indulgent in lue of actual, Watchmen related story telling.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:07
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Legin Noslen posted:MENTAL. GYMNASTICS. King Of Coons fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 22:13
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I thought the Dr. M. effects were pretty decent myself.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:31
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Zaphod42 posted:I posted an article which reveals who Lube Man is. Y'all should read it This was obvious from the get-go because he and Lube Man both have the same luscious lips.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:00
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i mean i think he is racist but not in the same way the 7K is. he is super broken little man who hates himself and humanity in general and leans into regressive monster politics because he is broken self hating gently caress and as Alan moore said he basicaly was kinda happy when Manhattan blew him apart. now his insane writings have basicaly become SIEGE for the watchman universe. What's funny is I'm pretty sure he's the only part of the main cast to have extended interactions with a black character -- in this case, his psychiatrist. That's not a commentary on Rorschach's racial politics as much as the original Watchmen was really white. Also, who was it that wrote "black unrest" on that map way back in that meeting of the Crimebusters?
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Dec 11, 2019 23:04
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Xanderkish posted:Also, who was it that wrote "black unrest" on that map way back in that meeting of the Crimebusters? My guess is Captain Metropolis, given his dismissive comment to Will/HJ about "solving black unrest by yourself" or whatever in the flashback episode. e: Or maybe not. I was struck by his use of the phrase in that episode, but maybe both instances are just a reflection of America's general attitude that racial conflict is the fault of entitled minorities who don't know how good they have it and need to stop complaining. Weedle fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 23:09
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Weedle posted:My guess is Captain Metropolis, given his dismissive comment to Will/HJ about "solving black unrest by yourself" or whatever in the flashback episode. It is Captain Metropolis. The Comedian then asks why anybody gives a poo poo about any of that stuff when they will all be dead due to nuclear armegeddon soon anyway. That is, as the kids say, the “inciting moment” to the 🤫🧠🦑💥🗽☮️
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Dec 11, 2019 23:13
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lube man is supposed to represent the audience and their reaction to the shows attempts to be meta.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:13
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What does it mean that a character who was on the show for all of two minutes has become the most unambiguously loved part of the entire show. At a certain point I'm afraid of getting any further information on Lube Man for fear it will ruin the magic.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:23
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Xanderkish posted:What does it mean that a character who was on the show for all of two minutes has become the most unambiguously loved part of the entire show. It’s gonna be sad when Lube Man’s Diary is used as a manifesto by right wing terrorists 30 years from now
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Dec 11, 2019 23:28
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Lube Man is eternal. He will defeat any terrorists that appropriate his ways and he will do so with extreme prejudice and his lube.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:30
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King Of Coons posted:Gallant realizes he has missed an important part of the show and asks his friends for clarification. Really long, boring post but I saw some quoted-post-yellow in there. Anything noteworthy?
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Dec 11, 2019 23:43
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Pretend I empty quoted all your posts it ironically
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Dec 11, 2019 23:53
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King Of Coons posted:Pretend I empty quoted all your posts it ironically 👍🤙 just wanted to know if I was the goofus, the gallant, or the white man
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Dec 11, 2019 23:59
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Re: Manhattan and predetermined course of action. It's not that Jon can't change outcomes, it's that he has committed to this particular sequence of events because it has what he considers to be the most beneficial possible outcome (how he makes those choices is anybody's guess). I'm reminded of a bit in Rudy Rucker's Ware series where 4D creatures show up on Earth. One of the humans attempts to shoot them repeatedly but the creatures always dance out of the way. When the character asks why he can't shoot them, the human is reminded that the creatures exists outside of time and can see all the infinite branching paths from one moment to the next... and they simply choose to move forward in one of the millions of realities where the human missed. Jon has probably played the game of Earth a couple billion times. It's probably easier for Jon to explore a scenario if he tells everyone he *can't* change the future rather than won't.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:08
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Can we talk about the philosophy of the lack of free will and the kind of implications that has for the characters. Because that's the argument I feel the series is falling on the side of. And it's about to get really calvinism vs arminianism in here but essentially if people have no free will the series really kind of contradicts itself. Because if people do not have free will, there are no such things as good people or bad people or racists or not racists, because all that is essentially predetermined. Racists have no more choice to not be racist in that concept than black people have a choice to not be black. That's why the concept that there is no free will is ultimately stupid fatalistic bullshit and calvinists are satanists.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:13
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ThanosWasRight posted:
I would absolutely love to see an edit of the morgue scene where Angela opens the fourth cabinet to reveal Frank and a magnum condom.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:15
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We regret to inform you that Lube Man is a nazi.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:25
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rich thick and creamy posted:Re: Manhattan and predetermined course of action. I don't agree with this read. I think Dr. M is a metaphor for powerlessness, he's not Dr. Strange. For all his abilities he's a slave to time and chance like anyone else. He's more like Cassandra, aware of the future but unable to change it. That's he's nearly omniscient is only meant to hammer that point home. Also imo he doesn't give a poo poo about "beneficial outcomes" or if he did, we couldn't trust that the well-being of humanity was one of them.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:28
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My take is that all stories based on time travel or being able to see into the future (basically the same thing) are inherently stupid because the idea that people can travel through time or see the future are both inherently stupid. It's just a question of whether you're willing to suspend your disbelief or not.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:38
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rich thick and creamy posted:Re: Manhattan and predetermined course of action. Both the show and the book devote an entire episode/issue to explaining how Jon perceives time and it's explicitly not this.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:45
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I think people in Watchmen still have free will. It just appears to be predetermined through Jon’s eyes/explanations because of the way he experiences time.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:47
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King Of Coons posted:Gallant realizes he has missed an important part of the show and asks his friends for clarification. Okay but lets add to this Gallant informs his friends that they overlooked an important detail in the show Goofus lords over his friends and tells them they're "bad show watchers" because they missed something in A TELEVISION SHOW
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Dec 12, 2019 00:50
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ThanosWasRight posted:Can we talk about the philosophy of the lack of free will and the kind of implications that has for the characters. Oh my god you're trying to kill me aren't you? AGENCY IS NOT FREE WILL. FREE WILL IS NOT AGENCY. You can have agency and not have free will. (that's what we have) Everybody on Watchmen has Agency, and that's all we have.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:51
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rich thick and creamy posted:Re: Manhattan and predetermined course of action. Necrothatcher posted:Both the show and the book devote an entire episode/issue to explaining how Jon perceives time and it's explicitly not this. Yeah this is wrong. Man I'm sad that everybody is getting so hungup on Manhattan. Its not that he can't change his mind. Its that he already made up his mind and already did the thing. Its always "too late" for him to choose something different, because it already happened. Manhattan can pick any choice he wants at any moment. But he can't change his options based on the past or future any more than we can. You can't change what you had for breakfast because it already happened. Its set in stone. You say "well, why can't Manhattan look forward, see what happens, and then change something?" Because for him to see it, it has to already have happened. One goon explained it well a couple pages ago, for Manhattan everything is happening simultaneously. Imagine we were to create a billion clones of manhattan and teleport each clone to a different second of time. Each clone makes the best decision he can. All that happens *before* the show starts, because if Manhattan knows what happens, it has to be decided already. That's why he still reacts to things in the moment as though he didn't already know them, but he did also already know them. The moment where he is told already happened. He knows that he'll be told, but he was told before he was able to see that he'll be told. Its all happening simultaneously.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:54
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Man, what would this forum have been like if it was around when "The Treachery of Images" came out.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:56
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah this is wrong. this is the correct explanation
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Dec 12, 2019 01:00
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Mandrel posted:this is the correct explanation Then how did he ask a question in the past based when someone in the future told him.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:01
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socialsecurity posted:Then how did he ask a question in the past based when someone in the future told him. This is where it gets real tricky, but I think its still all consistent. Jon does know things that will happen before they do, like how he tells Angela in the bar that they're going to go out on a date. Its not that he can't see the future. He just can't change his own actions. He always talked to Angela and always talked to Will. That's consistent. He doesn't change anything about what he does. The part where it gets real tricky is because Angela and Will are both experiencing time in a linear forward fashion, and out of order, and ask him something, and then make up their minds based on what he tells them. So it seems like Angela has to ask Jon before Jon can ask Will. But if Time isn't this linear flow but this one constant thing, then that "order of operations" doesn't really need to exist at all. Angela needs to ask Jon, and Jon needs to tell Will. Jon tells Will, and then Angela asks Jon. The order doesn't matter, because of Manhattan. Both will happen, that's all that matters. Manhattan himself couldn't really do that, because he's already experienced all time. But Angela and Will haven't. Like... (and this is where it gets super confusing) from Manhattan's perspective they have, but from their own perspective when he tells them they haven't yet, and then they make a decision, and then Manhattan sees that decision and knows they were always going to make it before they did. The show is very comfortable with time paradoxes as long as they're completely consistent in the end. How the paradox "got started" is unknowable, and that's the "chicken and egg" problem that the show tried to explain so much. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 01:11
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Necrothatcher posted:Both the show and the book devote an entire episode/issue to explaining how Jon perceives time and it's explicitly not this. You sound as if Manhattan somehow lost the ability to lie in that intrinsic field generator.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:21
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Closed time loops are a logical conclusion of his abilities and the way he talks to everyone (just casually revealing the future constantly) but I really wish they hadn't "gone there" because it just raises too many questions. They should have been able to make a watchmen without time travel bullshit and they really didn't need to - it could easily have been "hooded justice never gave up his fight" and knew Judd was a part of it because he knows how this white supremacy poo poo works all by himself
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Dec 12, 2019 01:25
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The real answer is that Dr Manhattan doesn't actually make a lick of sense in reality, any more than something like the time travel of Back to the Future. It's a fun narrative device
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Dec 12, 2019 01:26
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Chadzok posted:Closed time loops are a logical conclusion of his abilities and the way he talks to everyone (just casually revealing the future constantly) but I really wish they hadn't "gone there" because it just raises too many questions. They should have been able to make a watchmen without time travel bullshit and they really didn't need to - it could easily have been "hooded justice never gave up his fight" and knew Judd was a part of it because he knows how this white supremacy poo poo works all by himself If they did a watchmen show without Manhattan people would complain, if they did a Manhattan episode but ignored his unique perception of time people would complain, IDK man I thought the episode was pretty cool? And I'm not the only one https://tv.avclub.com/watchmen-composes-the-greatest-love-story-ever-told-1840286252
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Dec 12, 2019 01:29
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rich thick and creamy posted:You sound as if Manhattan somehow lost the ability to lie in that intrinsic field generator. One of his basic personality traits is annoying and freaking out other characters by being inhumanly honest.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:30
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SlipkPIe posted:The real answer is that Dr Manhattan doesn't actually make a lick of sense in reality, any more than something like the time travel of Back to the Future. It's a fun narrative device Who said anything about reality? We're talking about internal consistency here. This is like the classic "Its Harry Potter! Its magic fantasy! Who cares if there's a plot hole!" argument. Gotta disagree with you heavily here. Like, duh time travel isn't in our world. But if you're talking about the rules of Back to the Future, its because you're curious about the impact the mechanics will have on the narrative. Not because you think BTTF is a textbook that is going to teach you new science in our world.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:31
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Zaphod42 posted:If they did a watchmen show without Manhattan people would complain, if they did a Manhattan episode but ignored his unique perception of time people would complain, IDK man I thought the episode was pretty cool? I didn't say to not include Manhattan, they could include his perception without closed time loops (for example, the original comic) and I thought the episode was cool too. It's definitely not "the greatest love story ever told", Lost's "The Constant" was exactly the same idea but better. You don't need to tell me show is good, I can like the show and still think that particular incident was unnecessary and dumb.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:33
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