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Maclunkey 
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Dec 12, 2019 00:49
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 17:08 |
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ty for your service
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Dec 12, 2019 00:52
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The Walrus posted:no I'm just not being nearly as hyperbolic as you are and I just disagree that his portrayal goes as far from his OT portrayal as you are suggesting I see many contradictions between his OT portrayal and Luke in TLJ, I have yet to see you point to consistencies, just a dogged insistence that you can make "rational guesses" as to why he's a totally different character which is also why your second point is hilariously transparent bullshit - Obi Wan and Vader weren't established characters in the OT, and the movie wasn't entirely reliant on previous knowledge of them to function at all (while simultaneously contradicting much of that knowledge) and you're back on your "it's not about Luke!" bullshit to paper over obvious problems again - nobody forced TLJ to make Luke a completely different character who acts in a manner entirely at odds with his previous portrayals, nor make those wildly out-of-character actions a central (if static) part of the film e: oh you added some stuff lmao @ "willful ignorance" and "impetuousness" - what was he willfully ignorant and impetuous about? it might have some bearing on this! and this "it's a lot harder to correct a problem rationally or in the 'right' way when you have all the guilt for creating it" is just bullshit, because you're once again projecting from post-"failure" Luke to pre-"failure" Luke (neither of which have any basis in the OT) oh and then another superficial thematic comparison, as though those are the basis by which people judge quality LGD fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 00:54
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okay agree to disagree. the fundamental tenet of the movie is that your heroes aren't what you think. nothing in the movie betrays that idea so I think it's a consistent movie. I dont care what it does to Luke's character from the ot but more than that I think it's just turning a generic hero avatar into a real person and I think that's cool.
The Walrus fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 01:00
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Boy(ega) this conversation is dumb
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Dec 12, 2019 01:00
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Sydin posted:"broke people's brains" is an interesting way of saying "made no sense and sucked" but you do you.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:03
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The Walrus posted:I've referenced commonalities between his OT and NT portrayals many times but made an edit where I made them clear. lmao repeatedly saying you saw commonalities without actually elucidating them wasn't an argument, and neither is now identifying two negative character traits without explaining how, say, "impetuousness" can be naturally understood to lead to the attempted murder of a child placed in your care (which you keep insisting is hyperbole despite citing text where Luke talks about how he "thought he could stop it" [with a lightsaber murder]) this is especially funny since you're the guy who keeps talking about how we should understand that time changes people, but then cites traits most commonly associated with youth and known to often diminish with age as though they're eternal character facets of the dude who ended the OT seemingly on a path to becoming a wise mystic e: Gologle posted:Boy(ega) this conversation is dumb yeah LGD fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 01:08
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TLJ was a middle of the road Star War rating it by the standards of a body of canon that includes at its nadir Attack of the Clones and the Clone Wars CGI movie (which got a theatrical release, so it counts). Its merits and flaws have been re-litigated so much online that when someone asks me my opinion IRL I just say "it was fine" in a tone of voice that I hope conveys I'm not interested in star war discourse, and tune out whatever response they have. No matter how bad ROS ends up being it will never be as bad as the fetid sluice of youtube videos and thinkpieces warring over its quality and culture war relevance will be.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:09
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the movie hasn't even hit theaters yet. Give it a chance Don't get mad at things that don't exist yet
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Dec 12, 2019 01:10
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Starwars is actually this super nuanced thing that requires a Sherpa to interpret it. It's not a bankrupt gross money grab.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:15
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I am the wise poster that can tell you how Disney Corp is making honest films.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:16
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roarpower posted:the movie hasn't even hit theaters yet. Give it a chance whether it is good, or it is bad, The Rise of Skywalker Discourse is going to be intolerable. search your feelings
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Dec 12, 2019 01:19
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It's gonna be bad.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:21
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my dog died im sad posted:It's gonna be bad. yeah, most likely. All of the Disney Star Wars was bad
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Dec 12, 2019 01:23
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The discourse can really only go up from TLJ. No one has as much skin in the game this time, either on the "woke disney" or "actual nazi" sides of the debate
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Dec 12, 2019 01:26
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No Mods No Masters posted:The discourse can really only go up from TLJ. No one has as much skin in the game this time, either on the "woke disney" or "actual nazi" sides of the debate life, uh, finds a way
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Dec 12, 2019 01:27
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I just want a good Star Wars movie you nerds
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Dec 12, 2019 01:28
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LGD posted:lmao I identified those traits previously and I didn't give examples in the OT because I thought they were obvious, and I didn't explain how it led to his TLJ decisions because again I thought it was obvious - it lead to him impetuously turning the lightsaber on without thinking of the consequences. you keep referencing 'attempted murder' but it's very specifically never attempted. he reconsidered after his initial impetuous thought. it's easy to paint luke as a monster when you misrepresent what he actually did over and over. I'll say it again, his character in the OT was some hero journey generic avatar and I have no issue with trying to introduce some nuance so long as it's not a totally different character. And that's where we disagree, you think the character changes were too great.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:31
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So the council agrees. The Last Jedi is a star wars movie but we do not grant it the rank of good
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Dec 12, 2019 01:31
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No Mods No Masters posted:The discourse can really only go up from TLJ. No one has as much skin in the game this time, either on the "woke disney" or "actual nazi" sides of the debate I have no skin in either side of that debate and this conversation is just awful so trust me it's gonna be a ride. I've never really argued about TLJ online, I wanted to give it a shot once before the world moves on.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:31
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roarpower posted:I just want a good Star Wars movie you nerds Unironically, watch the first three episodes of Mandolorian and enjoy your 90 minute Star War movie done in the key of Sergio Leone.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:32
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star wars is like DC comics. the movies are a train wreck, but the TV shows and cartoons are top tier
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Dec 12, 2019 01:39
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There's just not that much to say about JJ films. He's a hack and he hacks movies together. Whereas the bizarre badness of TLJ was complex and rich enough to sustain an entire ecosystem of embarrassing apologists and enraged nazis in forever war. We may not see its like again
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Dec 12, 2019 01:39
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my dog died im sad posted:Starwars is actually this super nuanced thing that requires a Sherpa to interpret it. It's not a bankrupt gross money grab.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:53
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That Walrus guy should submit all his posts to fanfiction.net.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:00
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Owlbear Camus posted:Unironically, watch the first three episodes of Mandolorian and enjoy your 90 minute Star War movie done in the key of Sergio Leone. the thing is, I already like three star wars movies.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:09
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Also, there are some good Sergio Leone movies that don't require a quick coat of star wars?
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Dec 12, 2019 02:11
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my dog died im sad posted:Also, there are some good Sergio Leone movies that don't require a quick coat of star wars? they do not have Ewoks in them
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Dec 12, 2019 02:21
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I don't see what's so difficult to understand about the reasoning that TLJ Luke is sufficiently different from his OT characterization that most viewers require the movie to make an argument for his change before they buy in rather than simply accepting authorial fiat and that the movie does not in fact make the argument Maybe it's just editing contrivance from having to cram in the casino subplot to satisfy the suits or whatever and a lot of this stuff that ought to be there just ended up on the cutting room floor, but the way this movie uses "well the Force told me" to get the plot to work is just lazy and dumb. It's been discussed to death the last couple of pages WRT Nephewcide Rashomon Bullshit but it does the same thing with Rey's decision to split and go try to redeem Kylo which renders so much of the following Rey/Kylo/Snoke poo poo dramatically incoherent because the parameters are really not established at all. Like it's like they figured since Luke ditches Yoda in Empire because of a vision of his friends suffering and thought it was Luke acting spooked that made it persuasive instead of the fact the viewer has seen his friends on the lam for the whole fuckin runtime and thus the specific contents of the vision are unnecessary for us because we've already seen it Rey being like "well movie's wrapping up and I'm bouncing because me and Kylo touched hands and I'm ready to abandon my Jedi goals in favor of a guy who murdered my temporary surrogate father in front of me and put my best friend in a coma" and then Snoke being like "ahaha sucker I gave you the vision, expectations subverted bitch, this is what really happened in the future vision" and then Kylo being like "actually bitch it's your expectations that were subverted" and offing him to (maybe?) prove Rey's vision right but then being like "well looks like I did kill Snoke and fight beside you like you thought but actually I'm even eviller now so your expectations are subverted too" could maybe have worked. Typing it out in sequence I can see what the movie was going for. But again, the problem is that we never saw any part of the loving vision so we're never really able to calibrate what are expectations ought to be in the first place
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Dec 12, 2019 03:35
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:
I should* watch these movies again to better remember their structure but does Rey have a good reason for going to Kylo beyond he can be potentially good? They spent a sum total of 30 minutes on the force phone bantering and now he's worth leaving Jedi island for? *won't
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Dec 12, 2019 03:46
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Like how hard is it to turn someone away from the dark side anyway Don't you just get the lightning powers and the ability to choke people? You can still throw rocks and stuff with the light side. Plus you get to be a ghost afterwards.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:51
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That would be a minus for me. I long for oblivions embrace. The dark side does tend to make you look gross tho
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Dec 12, 2019 03:52
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Kazak posted:I should* watch these movies again to better remember their structure but does Rey have a good reason for going to Kylo beyond he can be potentially good? They spent a sum total of 30 minutes on the force phone bantering and now he's worth leaving Jedi island for? *won't I mean, he looked pretty good shirtless.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:56
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Sydin posted:I mean, he looked pretty good shirtless. What the gently caress
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Dec 12, 2019 04:05
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hey if rey 'starwars' palpatine is a palpatine then why was luke's laser sword calling to her
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Dec 12, 2019 04:27
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Kazak posted:I should* watch these movies again to better remember their structure but does Rey have a good reason for going to Kylo beyond he can be potentially good? They spent a sum total of 30 minutes on the force phone bantering and now he's worth leaving Jedi island for? *won't It's not even necessarily a belief, in that the way Rey explains herself, she's not even taking a leap of faith in trusting Kylo not to betray her. She claims to be operating out of certainty based on a Force vision and that's basically it How was this vision communicated by the movie? They touch hands and she gasps. Later when she's beating up Luke she clarifies for the audience that this moment was meant to represent a vision rather than like, idk, a very subdued orgasm. Honestly I think it would have been more dramatically sound if it had been an orgasm and Rey was just horny out of her mind and really needed some red lightsaber action. At least that's a human motivation that would shade her character a little bit
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Dec 12, 2019 04:27
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It certainly doesn't help that Rey is barely a character with how little Rian or JJ bothered to fill in her details. When Luke goes to try and redeem Vader it makes sense to us as an audience even though Vader captured his friends and cut off his hand because we know enough about Luke as character to expect compassion from him. He also has a clear connection to Vader. Meanwhile Rey going to redeem Kylo makes no sense because Rey expressed nothing but hatred for him until like 30 minutes ago when they had a five second skype call, and they have nothing really connecting them. I do wonder how much more the ST would be in general if Rey were actually a well fleshed out character you could get invested in.
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Dec 12, 2019 04:38
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I had really high hopes for Rey based on her intro in tfa. She had a good self sufficiency thing going on nottattooine that echoed Luke's farm boyishness while giving her some room to be a different kind of hero in waiting
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Dec 12, 2019 04:55
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I'm looking forward to hearing about what happens in RoS that will retcon and shittify the OT. Because gently caress if I'm actually paying to see this garbage heap in a theater. Gimme ALL the spoilers.
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Dec 12, 2019 05:28
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Buy a ticket to CATS and sneak in to ROS. Worst case star wars keeps sucking and we get a CATS cinematic universe
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Dec 12, 2019 05:37
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