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Chadzok posted:I didn't say to not include Manhattan, they could include his perception without closed time loops (for example, the original comic) and I thought the episode was cool too. It's definitely not "the greatest love story ever told", Lost's "The Constant" was exactly the same idea but better. You don't need to tell me show is good, I can like the show and still think that particular incident was unnecessary and dumb. Yeah, The Constant was great. I didn't mean to say you hate the show but just to suggest that the episode did work really well for lots of people. But I can also see how it feels like Lindelof is just kinda repeating himself but worse.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:36
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Even if the response from Will was something like "I don't know who this Judd Crawford is, but if he a nazi then I'll catch up with him yet" then at least it's open to the idea that maybe he would have gotten there anyway. But I guess that's not the story Lindelof wants to tell. He wants to tell a story about a closed time loop even though Netflix' Dark cannot be bested.
Chadzok fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 01:37
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Chadzok posted:Even if the response from Will was something like "I don't know who this Judd Crawford is, but if he a nazi then I'll catch up with him yet" then at least it's open to the idea that maybe he would have gotten there anyway. But I guess that's not the story Lindelof wants to tell. He wants to tell a story about a closed time loop even though Netflix' Dark cannot be bested. Huh, guess I gotta watch that next then...
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Dec 12, 2019 01:42
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Necrothatcher posted:One of his basic personality traits is annoying and freaking out other characters by being inhumanly honest. ... Who also agreed to conceal the true cause of death of 3 million in NYC. It's not like he hasn't got it in him.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:43
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Zaphod42 posted:Oh my god you're trying to kill me aren't you? Found the compatibilist.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:43
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Zaphod42 posted:This is where it gets real tricky, but I think its still all consistent. this is also correct it isn’t that hard to understand. angela always asked doc that question and he always asked will who always found out that way. it happened that way because it always happened that way. it was able to always happen that way because of doc. it’s a deterministic universe. doc is a puppet who can see the strings. he’s not a puppeteer and any apparent puppeteering he does only appears to be so due to everyone else including us perceiving events he is involved in linearly
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Dec 12, 2019 01:46
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Zaphod42 posted:Huh, guess I gotta watch that next then... You're in for a treat, and you'll get to live watch the last season soon. I did really like Calhattan muttering about rhe chicken and the egg as if he'd noticed something relly interesting about the universe, that was dead on to the character from the comics
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Dec 12, 2019 01:50
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just another posted:Found the compatibilist. No I'm actually a super-determinist!  Free will is an illusion! That's why I keep having heart attacks over people mixing up Free Will and Agency.
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 01:50
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Jon sees the world the way we see a comic book. Characters in the story experience the events linearly, but for us it's a complete and self-contained artifact, and the entire narrative exists at once in the object. We can flip back and forth but it all exists at once, and it's linearity is a trick of perspective. Imagine literally asking the image of Manhattan on the page of your Watchmen TPB why he didn't do things differently. That's what it means to ask the character that question within the universe of the show.
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Dec 12, 2019 01:55
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just another posted:Jon sees the world the way we see a comic book. Characters in the story experience the events linearly, but for us it's a complete and self-contained artifact, and the entire narrative exists at once in the object. We can flip back and forth but it all exists at once, and it's linearity is a trick of perspective. Okay this is a bit of a tangent but you just reminded me of something and I don't care In Jojo's part 5, Golden Wind, there's a stand called King Crimson who can manipulate time, in particular, "time erasure". In comics/manga, we infer that actions are going on between panels, but then King Crimson's power reverses that, and means that you actually do jump straight from panel to panel with zero time left between them, confused on how you suddenly got somewhere else. Its a fun deconstruction of the nature of comics itself, meaning that the characters only experience the moments that we see, and they start living a hyper-literal version of a comic page, which leaves them vulnerable. Manhattan definitely is a similar kind of thing, Moore was probably riffing on the nature of comics panels themselves when he wrote it. There's no way that isn't intentional. A person who's ability is to simply read the comic that they're in. He's aware its a book, unlike everybody else in it. But he can't change the book any more than anybody else, because for him to read it, it has to already have been printed. And once printed, the page doesn't change. You're just viewing it in a certain order.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:08
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It just occurred to me that Manhattan's ability to be present at all moments simultaneously must make sex perpetually awkward. It's like that moment when you're having sex and you're reminded of a conversation you had with your partner about Steve Buschemi, and then you realize you're thinking about Steve Buschemi while having sex, so now you're trying to not think about Steve Buschemi while having sex, but the more you try to not think about Steve Buschemi while having sex the more you're thinking about how you don't want to think about Steve Buschemi while having sex, so you just keep thinking about Steve Buschemi while having sex even though that is explicitly the one thing you don't want to do. That's Dr. Manhattan's curse. Every time he's loving, he's thinking about Steve Buschemi. Forever.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:20
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Actually no wonder he really likes to lay pipe, he's experiencing all those times at once
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Dec 12, 2019 02:24
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Actually no wonder he really likes to lay pipe, he's experiencing all those times at once When you think about it, he should probably be hard 24/7 Xanderkish posted:It just occurred to me that Manhattan's ability to be present at all moments simultaneously must make sex perpetually awkward. Its even worse because he can "clone" himself and have a orgy with himself, while also working on a computer system in the other room. 
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Dec 12, 2019 02:33
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It's 1941. I am having my first sexual experience, to a grainy black and white picture of Eleanor Roosevelt. It's 1985. I am blowing up Rorschach with my hands, causing a warm and gooey explosion. It's 2010. We are roleplaying as the Contessa and the naughty stable boy(s).
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Dec 12, 2019 02:43
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Respect to Angela, she handled having a magical boyfriend better than Laurie.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:45
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laurie loving sucks and always has
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Dec 12, 2019 02:50
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Mandrel posted:laurie loving sucks and always has Yeah, but in her defense she had a superhero mom and a rapist superhero father and grew up in a really, really weird way.
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Dec 12, 2019 02:56
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Zaphod42 posted:Huh, guess I gotta watch that next then... DARK is the best original content on Netflix as well as the best depiction of time travel in any medium ever The fact that it's even about time travel is an unfortunate spoiler but I think Netflix straight up says that when you launch the show now Read nothing and speak to no one about DARK Immediately watch DARK
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Dec 12, 2019 03:29
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Zaphod42 posted:When you think about it, he should probably be hard 24/7 Which raises an interesting question: how many Dr M clones were loving in other rooms Laurie wasn't in?
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Dec 12, 2019 03:29
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rich thick and creamy posted:Which raises an interesting question: how many Dr M clones were loving in other rooms Laurie wasn't in?
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Dec 12, 2019 03:38
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:DARK is the best original content on Netflix as well as the best depiction of time travel in any medium ever Hey... hey.... hey.... Primer is one of my favorite movies. So, you just wrote a big check right there.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:40
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Zaphod42 posted:Hey... hey.... hey.... Primer is one of my favorite movies. So, you just wrote a big check right there. Oh poo poo before I forget... IMMEDIATELY switch off the dubbed audio and deal with the original german + english subtitles.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:41
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Can also vouch that Dark is the best thing Netflix has made and is so far the best time travel story ever and next to Watchmen and The Expanse is probably my favorite ongoing show. If you like Primer its right up your alley. Its also just a really really good character drama and the tone is delightfully German.
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Dec 12, 2019 03:45
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Oh poo poo before I forget... IMMEDIATELY switch off the dubbed audio and deal with the original german + english subtitles. Ah, good call. I love watching foreign films so that's no issue for me. (And I assume the dubs are weak if you're stressing this)
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Dec 12, 2019 03:50
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SardonicTyrant posted:When they asked me if I wanted to gently caress God I said yes, and then something funny happened. It's like Schrodinger's Horny Blue Man. Behind every closed door, around every corner exists the potential of $NUM Dr Manhattan clones going at it hammer and tong. It's only the act of observation that collapses the superposition.
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Dec 12, 2019 04:37
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Dec 12, 2019 04:48
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Zaphod42 posted:Oh my god you're trying to kill me aren't you? I feel you don't don't understand the difference between the two anymore than we do because your arguments against it doesn't seem to follow any rules.
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Dec 12, 2019 05:20
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ThanosWasRight posted:I feel you don't don't understand the difference between the two anymore than we do because your arguments against it doesn't seem to follow any rules. Because you don't understand the difference somehow.... that means I don't understand the difference? Dude, you're projecting. Just google the two terms its not hard.
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Dec 12, 2019 05:29
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Manhattan is the egg.
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Dec 12, 2019 06:09
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Can we just do a read along of The Sirens of Titan instead of arguing about the philosophical veracity of sci-fi time travelling tropes?
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Dec 12, 2019 06:14
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I forgot that Dr. Manhattan dated a child once, and it's really informing my take on how passive and lovely he acts to his wife
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Dec 12, 2019 06:16
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Zaphod42 posted:Huh, guess I gotta watch that next then... Dark is the poo poo and I think you'll really like it but watch it in German!  fe;fb
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Dec 12, 2019 06:26
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even blue men crave young flesh
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Dec 12, 2019 07:54
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Mameluke posted:I forgot that Dr. Manhattan dated a child once, and it's really informing my take on how passive and lovely he acts to his wife What's the deeeal...with all these tachyons? I mean I can't see through 'em, but you...can't even see 'em. Talk about the blind leading the blind, am I right? [applause break] WE'RE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS HERE, PEOPLE.
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Dec 12, 2019 07:55
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If Bob walks out of the Dr. Manhattan machine and says "I just blue myself!" I'll at least crack a smile.
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Dec 12, 2019 08:13
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If this is true - that Yahya didn't know he was playing Doc until between shooting eps 2 and 3 - that will certainly make for an interesting rewatch to see how the writing and direction contrast with his acting before and after. https://youtu.be/5x_atMEKJD4
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Dec 12, 2019 08:53
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I'm wondering how much of an accident it was Manhattan runs across Angela specifically. He creates life, gets bored, gets lonely, feels like going to a bar, sees Angela and realizes in the moment he falls in love with her and everything goes from there, sure. Or even: he knows he's going to fall in love with Angela from the beginning, goes to the bar when he knows he's going to go to the bar etc, fine. But this could have happened with anybody, and instead it happens with Hooded Justice's granddaughter. That's a massive coincidence if Dr. Manhattan happens to fall in love with someone who happens to set up events like the causality time loop that just happen to disrupt some massive events that were ongoing in Tulsa, which just happen to be related to what Hooded Justice was already investigating. Why does Dr. Manhattan enter that bar specifically? Why Angela? Jon wants Angela in Tulsa. When at the bar he tells Angela that she'll come up with an elegant idea for how he can hide his identity, and he won't tell her what it is when she presses him. But later he tells her outright that they'll live in Tulsa, and that it will be her idea. He plants the idea in her head, we see him do this with their fight too where his reminding her of it ends up provoking the fight... which in turn motivates her to find a long term solution to their relationship... which gets her thinking about Tulsa. I'm not convinced this stuff is just explained by the time loop, it feels very deliberate. It's less like Dr. Manhattan is looking ahead to a closed time loop created by his looking ahead, and more like he is deliberately putting himself in situations where he can exploit his foresight through the promptings of other characters. Dr. Manhattan may be experiencing everything at once but I don't think he has an infinite attention span, he is reminded of experiences as others bring them up. Jon wants Hooded Justice in Tulsa. He actually needs Hooded Justice in Tulsa because otherwise Angela doesn't have enough information to put together the Cyclops connection. Only his insistence she takes his memory pills gets him to do it. At the same time though HJ probably doesn't go there if Dr. Manhattan doesn't give him a reason to go. His granddaughter is something but maybe not enough, he needs the extra information of a secret Klan member. The way the information is passed looks like a closed time loop because on the other end we see Jon look confused, but very quickly he seems to recover, comes up with an explanation (chicken or egg? oh, both at the same time) and starts cooking. Before this moment he seems to not have his full faculties, but after this he seems to regain himself as though he suddenly remembered, oh yeah this was the plan. I'm not saying Jon is lying about "both events happened at the same time" but even if that's the case the only reason it happens is because Jon positions HJ there to pick up the kids, so Angela asks about him, so Jon passes the information on. Jon puts himself in a position where he can essentially make a phone call ten years back, it comes off as a pretty deliberate move. Jon also needs Veidt for the plan because the only real way the plan works at all is because Jon comes out of his memory loss disoriented enough that he doesn't immediately teleport away or whatever. In turn hey what a coincidence that Veidt is heavily implied to have escaped his captivity recently, and is heavily implied to be in Tulsa. Sure looks like Manhattan put him on ice for just long enough to keep him out of the way. This then makes Jon's manor house on Europa part of the plan too, and incidentally the exact sort of prison that would keep Veidt occupied for long enough to escape at the perfect time. Again this could easily just be another time loop: Jon makes the manor, which turns out to be useful, which leads him to make the manor... But in any case Jon also seems to need Veidt in Tulsa for whatever reason... Which then leads to Trieu, who we know is connected to Veidt, has the resources to produce memory-enhancing pills, and was aware of Dr. Manhattan's identity. When I watched ep 7 I assumed she just got this information from Angela, who passed it on to the elephant, but after episode 8 I think she knew from the very start. Angela needs Hooded Justice's memories to make the Cyclops connection and ask him. It would be a closed time loop if HJ tells her about his days fighting Cyclops, because she asked him about a secret Cyclops member, because he told her about fighting Cyclops, because... But that's not what happens. It's Trieu's memory pills, and her insistence Angela takes them, that passes this information on. And Trieu and HJ are confederates in this. Which means she's also Dr. Manhattan's confederate. Incidentally Trieu can make the memory pills probably in large part because she bought Veidt's company (and elephant research) out when he "died," which is also too convenient to be coincidental. Which in turn is a way to break the "time loop." It's possible that Dr. Manhattan knows he must set himself up to be zapped by the 7th Kavalry, so he formulates a plan to set himself up to get zapped by them, so that he can get zapped by them, so that he knows he must get zapped by them... Or it's possible that someone like Trieu knew about Cyclops, Hooded Justice, Keene's big plan, and maybe even Angela herself, and just told Dr. Manhattan about them. "You should look into the daughter of Hooded Justice," and that alone could be enough to set the plot in motion. Then it's just a matter of how directly she's steering Dr. Manhattan vs how much is just incidental. I'm not gonna begin to guess what the final plan is and also I didn't get into how Laurie or Looking Glass fit in, or to what degree they were also manipulated into their respective positions (or if they were). My guess is that Trieu is a good guy because even if she were a bad guy setting up a masterstroke she would still need something really convincing to tell HJ and Manhattan to get them on her team. But for that matter she could have also manipulated 7K into looking like a bigger threat than they are to manipulate HJ and Manhattan to etc. In any case after typing this out I definitely don't think it's a coincidence or easy time loop that Manhattan happened to fall in love with HJ's daughter, make himself forget all his memories and set a bunch of people up to foil 7K's operation. The Ninth Layer fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 09:02
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ThanosWasRight posted:Can we talk about the philosophy of the lack of free will and the kind of implications that has for the characters. Whether free will exists or not, we have no choice but to assume that it does.
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Dec 12, 2019 09:17
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ThanosWasRight posted:
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Dec 12, 2019 11:11
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Zaphod42 posted:Okay this is a bit of a tangent but you just reminded me of something and I don't care It's worth mentioning that that King Crimson can also see the future and its user uses that knowledge to change the future, because if you have foreknowledge of an outcome that is obviously what you would do. So Jon better have a really good reason for getting hit by the teleport gun, because pretending it was bound by fate to happen when he knew it was coming and entirely capable of stopping it would be really stupid.
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Dec 12, 2019 13:56
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