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Jon is like a fictional character, not only in the sense that he is literally a fictional character but also in the sense that's he's watching the script unfold, the fact that he read the script doesn't mean that he can change it.
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Dec 12, 2019 13:59
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Jon is like a fictional character, not only in the sense that he is literally a fictional character but also in the sense that's he's watching the script unfold, the fact that he read the script doesn't mean that he can change it. His perception of time is specifically a meta-commentary on the nature of viewing art sequentially, which is the basis of comics.
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Dec 12, 2019 14:36
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Jon is like a fictional character, not only in the sense that he is literally a fictional character but also in the sense that's he's watching the script unfold, the fact that he read the script doesn't mean that he can change it. That largely works in the comic when he's largely a disinterested observer alienated from humanity (and even then Veidt has to do his tachyon bullshit to stop Manhattan seeing the future and beating him up) but making him an active participant in the plot with clear and immediate desires kills that perspective on him. He knows the Nazis are outside and he's entirely capable of instagibbing all of them or just teleporting himself and Angela 5000 miles away in an instant. Hinging the climax of the story on some 'he read the script' meta-explanation would be extremely rubbish.
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Dec 12, 2019 14:49
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The Ninth Layer posted:I'm wondering how much of an accident it was Manhattan runs across Angela specifically. He creates life, gets bored, gets lonely, feels like going to a bar, sees Angela and realizes in the moment he falls in love with her and everything goes from there, sure. Or even: he knows he's going to fall in love with Angela from the beginning, goes to the bar when he knows he's going to go to the bar etc, fine. But this could have happened with anybody, and instead it happens with Hooded Justice's granddaughter. That's a massive coincidence if Dr. Manhattan happens to fall in love with someone who happens to set up events like the causality time loop that just happen to disrupt some massive events that were ongoing in Tulsa, which just happen to be related to what Hooded Justice was already investigating. wow don't kinkshame jon 
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Dec 12, 2019 14:50
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Also while we’re in the topic of deterministic comics and time fuckery if you’re looking for a Watchmen sequel that focuses on even more comic book poo poo instead of what this show is doing then I strongly recommend you read Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt. It’s a comic about the world being invaded by aliens and the heroes realizing the whole thing is a hoax created by the smartest one of them.
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Dec 12, 2019 14:57
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Huh. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0122116/ quote:Upon moving into a bigoted neighborhood, the scientist father of a persecuted black family gives a superpower elixir to a tough bodyguard, who thus becomes a superpowered crimefighter.
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Dec 12, 2019 15:19
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah, but in her defense she had a superhero mom and a rapist superhero father and grew up in a really, really weird way. Who amongst us didn't start dating an omniscient nigh-omnipotent 35 year old when they were HS juniors
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Dec 12, 2019 15:41
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multijoe posted:It's worth mentioning that that King Crimson can also see the future and its user uses that knowledge to change the future, because if you have foreknowledge of an outcome that is obviously what you would do. Except that's not how Jon's foreknowledge works. It's made explicit that he percieves everything as "now", so as much as he knew about the teleport gun 10 years ago, he didn't know he would get hit with it until he was getting hit with it. He knew he was getting hit with it 10 years ago because he was getting hit with it 10 years ago, just like he was getting ripped apart by the IFG 10 years ago, and turning Rorshach into chunky salsa while he was getting hit with the teleport gun.
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Dec 12, 2019 15:51
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Well poo poo. Did goons miss this prior to now? I don’t remember seeing it itt
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Dec 12, 2019 15:54
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Did y'all see Arrival
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Dec 12, 2019 15:57
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beanieson posted:Well poo poo. Did goons miss this prior to now? I don’t remember seeing it itt i dont know if it came up in this topic but i think one dude on reddit caught it
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Dec 12, 2019 16:02
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beanieson posted:Well poo poo. Did goons miss this prior to now? I don’t remember seeing it itt Well obviously, goons are white. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrOEL_rV8N4
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Dec 12, 2019 16:12
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zoux posted:Did y'all see Arrival Not an empty quote
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Dec 12, 2019 16:13
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ThanosWasRight posted:Well obviously, goons are white. This movie rules https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBeShQyd8dw
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Dec 12, 2019 16:22
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zoux posted:Did y'all see Arrival Movie owns. Everyone should watch it. Also I feel the "He knew the 7k were outside he should've killed them all" would hold weight if it's been made abundantly clear that's not his personality. He let JFK get shot, he let comedian kill the woman pregnant with his child, etc. Even if he could change those things (he can't due to the nature of time in the Watchmen universe) dude doesn't give a gently caress enough to want to do anything. He just wants to be nude and logjamming with the occasional science experiment.
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Dec 12, 2019 16:39
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Jon is like a fictional character, not only in the sense that he is literally a fictional character but also in the sense that's he's watching the script unfold, the fact that he read the script doesn't mean that he can change it. To add to this, he's written by normal human beings who, like us, perceive time as a linear sequence rather than a totality. They can't write a good way for us to understand his mentality because they don't really get it either. For what it's worth, I think it's kind of stupid in concept, because as far as I can tell, what I perceive as my consciousness is so drastically informed by linear data that it's nonsensical to even posit that it would be possible to have a personality as we know it without a linear sequence of data to build on it. I don't know about anyone else, but when I wake up, I'm not really "me" until a few minutes have passed and I've had time to review all the memories and data I have, and to construct the story known as "my personality/life". To be in a state of perceiving and experiencing all time simultaneously is so alien as to be, well, nonsense.
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Dec 12, 2019 16:40
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I mean we don't even have the vocabulary to describe the concept. Above someone talked about "Jon's foreknowledge" and while we can understand what he's getting at, it's not foreknowledge to Dr. M., it's just knowledge. Not a criticism of that guy, and he's correct in his analysis anyway, but it demonstrates why this concept is so hard to understand without just kind of unfocusing your eyes, staring into the middle distance and just accepting it. It doesn't help that internet culture has created a tradition of basically nitpicking every time travel story to death by pointing out paradoxes.
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Dec 12, 2019 16:45
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Yeah I've been wondering how the writers couldve better conveyed what's happening and the only thing I could come up with would be to have manhattan always talk in present tense. So "I'm going to get shot by a laser" would be "I'm getting shot by a laser". I dunno.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:01
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Thinking about it, if the characters he tries to explain it to get infuriated and have problems understanding, is it ok if we feel the same?
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Dec 12, 2019 17:08
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So I've always preferred to read the comic's Manhattan a lot differently. Don't get me wrong, the explanation of Manhattan y'all are going over is valid in the comic and enforced in the show, but Manhattan always made more sense to me this way: He can't actually see the future. That part is just bullshit. He's just a really good predictor of things, kind of like parlor trick predictions. He thinks he can see the future--he's not exactly lying to everyone or pulling a con--but he wants time to work this way. It absolves him of making actual choices or dealing with the responsibility of choice, and he is loving terrified of responsibility. His whole life, he's let other people choose his path. Dad says I'll be a watchmaker, so I'll be a watchmaker. Now dad says it's physics, so it's physics. What's that? Burn down a Vietnamese village? Yes, Mr. President. The idea that all this has already happened is just what he wants to be true, and the root cause of his detachment from humanity isn't his godlike powers; it's a fear of free will. It's been a while since the last time I read it so correct me if I'm wrong, but if you get really skeptical about it, the comic never gives you any actual proof that he's all that omniscient. You do get that sequence where he's talking about past and present happening at once, but that sequence conspicuously never shows us anything that would happen later in the comic that we, as readers, could use to confirm his abilities. So I see him in the comic a lot more like Billy Pilgrim in that he absolutely believes what he's saying, but he's still a very unreliable authority, at least on the way time works. It's entirely possible that he's making it all up, the same way Pilgrim may be making up the Trafalmadorians to rationalize PTSD flashbacks. I dunno, those two characters have such a similar presentation of time that once I got the idea in my head that Doc might be similarly unreliable, I couldn't get it out.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:11
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precision posted:Whether free will exists or not, we have no choice but to assume that it does. No we don't. Free will doesn't exist. And its fine. All we need is agency and we definitely have that. You're killing me smalls.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:13
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AtraMorS posted:So I've always preferred to read the comic's Manhattan a lot differently. Don't get me wrong, the explanation of Manhattan y'all are going over is valid in the comic and enforced in the show, but Manhattan always made more sense to me this way: The tachyon fuckery blocking his experience at a certain point that he thinks is nuclear war and is really Veidt loving with him shows this isn't the case, doesn't it?
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Dec 12, 2019 17:14
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multijoe posted:It's worth mentioning that that King Crimson can also see the future and its user uses that knowledge to change the future, because if you have foreknowledge of an outcome that is obviously what you would do. He has a good reason, it already happened. Read the discussion we had.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:14
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Ugly In The Morning posted:The tachyon fuckery blocking his experience at a certain point that he thinks is nuclear war and is really Veidt loving with him shows this isn't the case, doesn't it?
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Dec 12, 2019 17:18
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AtraMorS posted:I don't think the tachyon gizmo blocked anything. That's just as far as Manhattan was able to game things out and make reasonable guesses as to how people/sides would behave. Except he was like "Hey, I can't see past this certain point because tachyon fuckery". Then he got to that point, and there was tachyon fuckery, but it wasn't the kind of tachyon fuckery he expected. That kind of strikes me as evidence that things work as he says. Plus, he's so disconnected from humanity he really has no reason to do what you're talking about. multijoe posted:It's worth mentioning that that King Crimson can also see the future and its user uses that knowledge to change the future, because if you have foreknowledge of an outcome that is obviously what you would do. He better have a good reason for getting hit because a character in a completely different piece of media has foreknowledge that works in a completely different way?
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Dec 12, 2019 17:26
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Herostratus posted:Also from Peteypedia, Laurie tells Petey to " get over to Mirror Guy’s house and bring him in. He flipped on Abar too fast and given what I just heard, I can’t rule out the little poo poo is Kavalry." When he was watching the wall-O-TVs, he was also getting a blast of new-and-improved mind control. I love how any 'old' footage they have is in 4:3. I wonder if they made the Cyclops hand-signal, which seems to be 'middle finger pressed to thumb, index finger up,' stupid and obvious so it hopefully wouldn't be picked up and used by actual racist shitheads?
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Dec 12, 2019 17:32
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beanieson posted:Well poo poo. Did goons miss this prior to now? I don’t remember seeing it itt It came up a couple times but just as reference, think this is the first time any links/videos were posted.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:33
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I liked how Jon sounded surprised when Angela told him about her parents, even when he knew it prior to that due to experiencing time all at once. The moment it happened was still “new information.” So, later, Jon knows the tragedy happens and yet when it happens it still catches him off guard or whatever. He knows he loves Angela and yet he doesn’t experience falling in love with her until right there at the end (although since he experiences all of time at once so technically he falls in love with her always). It is very, very difficult to wrap a linear mind around.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:35
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AtraMorS posted:So I've always preferred to read the comic's Manhattan a lot differently. That's how I read his character in the comic as well. That he was too human, too afraid, and used his alleged omniscience to cover it up.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:37
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^^Okay, so I'm not the only one.Ugly In The Morning posted:Except he was like "Hey, I can't see past this certain point because tachyon fuckery". Then he got to that point, and there was tachyon fuckery, but it wasn't the kind of tachyon fuckery he expected. That kind of strikes me as evidence that things work as he says. Plus, he's so disconnected from humanity he really has no reason to do what you're talking about. Manhattan: "Midnight. Midnight, November second. That's unusual. I'd expected us to reappear on Earth much earlier. The static interference I noticed earlier makes everything so unpredictable. Obviously, it wasn't caused by a warhead detonation. What, then? Not tachyons, surely...yes! Definitely! A squall of tachyons. Where can they be coming from? I'd almost forgotten the excitement of not knowing, the delights of uncertainty." Also in my reading, he's not gaming it out because he's interested in humanity. He's gaming it out to maintain an illusion for himself and relieve himself from any sense of responsibility. It's pure self-interest. AtraMorS fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 17:38
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Zaphod42 posted:No we don't. Free will doesn't exist. You didn't choose to type that, and I'm not choosing to type this. I respect your perception but, for my own sanity, reject it
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Dec 12, 2019 17:40
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AtraMorS posted:So I've always preferred to read the comic's Manhattan a lot differently. Don't get me wrong, the explanation of Manhattan y'all are going over is valid in the comic and enforced in the show, but Manhattan always made more sense to me this way: That's Paul Atreidis basically. Prescience in Dune is less about being a Jedi and actually seeing the future and more about running an overclocked brain and being able to deduce future events. Paul sees the future and comes up with the conclusion that he doesn't have the strength of character to change it and live with the consequence, I think Jon has similar views. Dune has other parallels, in that Paul realizes that controlling the future deprives humanity of its freedom and understands that beings like him cannot exist without becoming tyrants. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 17:42
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AtraMorS posted:So I've always preferred to read the comic's Manhattan a lot differently. Don't get me wrong, the explanation of Manhattan y'all are going over is valid in the comic and enforced in the show, but Manhattan always made more sense to me this way: You are entitled to your own read of course but this is entirely extra-textual. The "proof" as it were is that it's being presented to us this way by the author and artist, unless you believe they are intentionally misleading you in this manner while never, ever revealing that fact within the story, or interviews, or anything ever. We see how he perceives time, we see it in the way the panels are laid out, and Moore and Gibbons are taking advantage of their medium in a way that you cannot in others to convey this very complicated and counter-intuitive idea. Captain Splendid posted:Thinking about it, if the characters he tries to explain it to get infuriated and have problems understanding, is it ok if we feel the same? Oh for sure, I get why it's frustrating, and it's that very frustration that shows the distance between Dr. M. and mortals, and why he is so alien to us and alienated from us. If he were perceiving time linearly and just lying about it, I think that would be a much more disappointing and less interesting character.
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Dec 12, 2019 17:48
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AtraMorS posted:So I've always preferred to read the comic's Manhattan a lot differently. Don't get me wrong, the explanation of Manhattan y'all are going over is valid in the comic and enforced in the show, but Manhattan always made more sense to me this way: while i don’t think the not actually being able to see the future thing holds up (because he doesn’t make any claim to seeing the future because there is no future, determinism, non linear time blabla etc) i think the rest of your read on Doc’s personality/flaws is spot on. imo it’s important to always remember that about the guy. not only is he not a god, he is a man who is flawed in a lot of very clear and relatably human ways, and his detachment circa 85 is as much a result of his emotional immaturity and self absorption as it is anything else. he’s like a teen dude hitting his ayn rand libertarian phase hard. by the HBO show we see he seems to have matured somewhat
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Dec 12, 2019 17:59
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But yeah the sort of non chronological causality we've seen when Will and Angela used Jon as a temporal communication relay cannot work if we're merely dealing with 'extreme prescience' unless we're willing to throw in some pretty crazy 11 dimensional chess shenanigans into the whole thing.
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Dec 12, 2019 18:01
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zoux posted:You are entitled to your own read of course but this is entirely extra-textual. The "proof" as it were is that it's being presented to us this way by the author and artist, unless you believe they are intentionally misleading you in this manner while never, ever revealing that fact within the story, or interviews, or anything ever. I don't think that entire reading is extra textual. Jon being a deeply insecure and ineffectual God is very much textual.
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Dec 12, 2019 18:02
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precision posted:You didn't choose to type that, and I'm not choosing to type this. CHOICE IS AGENCY. That's not what free will means. You can choose things without free will. We have agency. You edited the part out where I say that and that's all we have. Please learn the terms, the difference is significant and you're just gonna confuse everybody when you say the wrong thing that isn't what you mean.
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Dec 12, 2019 18:03
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also regarding doc faking seeing the future, he never pretends to be able to see all the future, it’s just his own. any theories or claims he makes to things that don’t directly involve him ARE just educated guesses based on his own lived experiences (all of which he is experiencing all of the time at once). he outright states he isn’t omniscient at all. he cannot see the future, only his own future, which isn’t future at all to him
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Dec 12, 2019 18:05
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zoux posted:You are entitled to your own read of course but this is entirely extra-textual. The "proof" as it were is that it's being presented to us this way by the author and artist, unless you believe they are intentionally misleading you in this manner while never, ever revealing that fact within the story, or interviews, or anything ever. We see how he perceives time, we see it in the way the panels are laid out, and Moore and Gibbons are taking advantage of their medium in a way that you cannot in others to convey this very complicated and counter-intuitive idea. That said, I completely respect the reading most people go with, including what the show appears to be presenting. I just like that the comic leaves the tiniest bit of room to see it the other way, and that that reading still loops back around to a really interesting character sketch.
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Dec 12, 2019 18:07
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precision posted:I don't think that entire reading is extra textual. Jon being a deeply insecure and ineffectual God is very much textual. That's not the thrust of the theory though nor is counter to the reading presented in the text. Honestly if you want to grasp the concept of non-linear time you're going to have to take a fistful of psychedelics (like the author) and you will immediately lose that understanding after you come down.  Ah the distinguished gentleman from Florida has made a common error, mistaking Rorshach for his British version. Those geezers'll look up en say "Oi, give us a hand mate" and Oil look down and say "Feck off ye coonts"
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Dec 12, 2019 18:08
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