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Pesmerga posted:Labour is increasingly seen as an ‘out of touch liberal elite’ in its so-called heartlands, and even with Brexit off the political agenda I don’t think that’s going to change. If Brexit is a disaster and thinks get even worse for people (which they will), they’ll look for the next scapegoat, and Johnson will be more than happy to provide one. It’ll be Labour Right v nationalist Labour Left, dogwhistling as hard as they loving can while McCluskey and Lavery shout that they should have taken a harder line against foreign workers. The heartlands were shat on for decades, they finally got the promised labour government in 1997 and new Labour did gently caress all for them. They pitched their tent on Brexit to do something this time and when in 5-10 years Brexit is shown for the absolute sham it is I imagine they will disengage with politics altogether. Labour will have to work hard to get them back.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:33
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CGI Stardust posted:
Go in hard, and let the opponent write an essay on why, say, "eat the rich" is a bad thing to say. No one's reading the essays.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:35
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Guildencrantz posted:And a bunch of late middle age people who are going to become more conservative as they get angry that the world is changing around them. We've heard the generational change argument everywhere for decades, and in the end the reactionary olds that die just get replaced by new ones, often even people who voted left in their youth. You say this but come on, are we really going to argue that boomers in their 60s had the same viewpoints as their grandparents when they were in their 60s? I don't think so. There's going to come a point within literally ten years where the Tories can no longer ignore massive student loan debt in order to gain votes from the Greys, because the Greys will still have no housing and still debt from when they were 20 years younger.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:35
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Sakurazuka posted:Same, now I have to work for 9 hours I am so glad I took today off work.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:38
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I'm glad I'm working from home today
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Dec 13, 2019 09:39
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Pistol_Pete posted:A few random thoughts on last night's results: Yep, can't disagree.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:39
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I can't get enough of are Dan 
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We here in the colonies voted in Jacinda. You folks voted in Boris. Why could you not have followed suit for once? You done hosed up. Nah, but seriously condolences and What the Actual gently caress? The Tories will laugh at Trump for being a buffoon and then happily elect the same character? "Biggest majority since Thatcher" conjures up just absolute dread.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:39
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Mighty Steed posted:Labour campaign wasn't able to make the election not about Brexit, while Tories refused to talk about anything else. Until brexit is through, there is nothing really that can penetrate the mind of the public. They're tired of it being all that's in the news, the only other factor is the demonisation of Corbyn - it does stick, but it's the second main excuse of tory voters from people I've managed not to throttle while talking politics. Now what I'd like to see is the next Labour leader step up and kick arse and the current "journalists" try and justify why that person is not electable or good enough. Whoever takes over can just come out swinging about addressing the anti-semitism angle, and concentrate on crucifying the tories on everything. Let's face it, they'll gently caress brexit and everything up hard enough that come the next election cycle, the public will have to choose based on something other than a brexit soundbite. Also, less olds will be around to push for them.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:40
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Azza Bamboo posted:Go in hard, and let the opponent write an essay on why, say, "eat the rich" is a bad thing to say. No one's reading the essays.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:42
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Pesmerga posted:It’s time to dump the ‘kinder, gentler politics’ approach. Humanity is fighting for its survival (both in terms of the species and in terms of its ethics). People need to keep themselves and those they care about safe, as we can’t expect those in power to do it. This. I realize this is probably an unhealthy reaction I'm having, but still . . . I've been increasingly wondering whether the left needs to start getting its hands dirty rather than continuing to lose a rigged game. Get our own disinformation campaign going, since apparently people just want to be lied to if the message is easier. Spend the entire time between elections microtargeting right-wingers with whatever is likely to demotivate them. It doesn't even have to be true, because they don't seem to give a gently caress about that anyway. poo poo, get a bunch of burly minority folks to hang out by every polling place where it'd make a difference, so they can scare the racists away. I dunno. Like I said, this is probably unhealthy thinking (and it would be unethical as gently caress), but I'm still processing. UK Labour under Corbyn is the first time a genuinely left party I've been aware of has had a shot at making real change in a country in my lifetime. Just don't gently caress it by replacing him with a melt. Please?
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Dec 13, 2019 09:43
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i dont really want to buy that poster a buttplug, have they nominated a charity yet? sorry ive skipped like a thousand posts
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Dec 13, 2019 09:45
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Does anyone have any books I can read on building parallel structures? Alongside that, how did people use to meet up and form Anarchist collectives back in the day?
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Dec 13, 2019 09:45
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Popping in to offer my sincere condolences as well as heartfelt applause for those of you who worked so hard on this campaign. You have nothing to regret on that score. Kudos. Apart from that, I unsubbed the thread for a while to save my sanity. Now I get to see how Denmark will handle me as a UK citizen going forward...
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Dec 13, 2019 09:45
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Kreeblah posted:This. The Immortal Lenin posted:I must say at this point that our propaganda and agitation must be open and above-board. We must condemn most resolutely those who regard politics as a series of cheap little tricks, frequently bordering on deception. Their mistakes have to be corrected. You can’t fool a class. I guess it turns out you really can though.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:48
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Is Johnnie Walker Black considered palatable by you whisky aficionados? I’ve had a bottle in my house for years but never fancied it much as I recall. Wondering if the single malts you previously discussed are significantly different or better or if I don’t like this one then I won’t like them.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:49
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kustomkarkommando posted:Well the election in NI went alright The one glimmer of solace. Do you reckon there will be a border poll before the GFA gets shat on by Joris?
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Dec 13, 2019 09:49
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/who-will-be-the-next-labour-party-leader So out of this lot who would you vote for?
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Dec 13, 2019 09:49
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If you’re going to be combative you need to go 100%. Rallies, anger, full on class war, pushing the boundaries every day, daring the police to stop you at every turn, outright hostility and contempt to the biased media, ideally of the type that makes stupid people nod along and go “yeah”. But the key thing is the incrementalism: pushing the boundary just a little bit more each time. It’s a fundamentally immoral way of doing things but it works; we know this because the right has done it successfully since Karl Rove in the US. You could also maybe run Labour as a violently anti-elite anti-liberal party, so long as you had the liberals on side strategically. Labour doesn’t run in lib leaning areas Libs don’t run in working class anti-elite areas. It needs to be more than tactical voting, it needs to be a formal pact where one party takes the first move to stand down - like Nigel Farage very intelligently (fucker) did this time.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:50
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Kreeblah posted:This. I’m feeling the same way, as unhealthy as it is. Any progressive movement will be stamped on, and while the message of Victor Jara is beautiful, his torture and execution shows that a beautiful message only goes so far. We should be reading less Fully Automated Luxury Communism and more The Prince, Republic and Nicomachean Ethics. We should be paying attention to Hannah Arendt talking about the banality of evil and how an entire population can become complicit in it, and think about the strategies needed to combat it.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:51
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Not unexpected results for me, however I'm kinda sad that reality is as grim as I thought it was. Good luck UKMT goons.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:52
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Sorry, UKMT, I had hoped for a better result for you all.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:52
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/who-will-be-the-next-labour-party-leader Rayner, so long as she wears brass knuckles to Parliament.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:52
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chird posted:Is Johnnie Walker Black considered palatable by you whisky aficionados? I’ve had a bottle in my house for years but never fancied it much as I recall. Its all a matter of preference - I always found singles to be better as they are uncomplicated and are down to what were aged in really. Blends are ok, but they end up not really having a specific taste and just end up being generic. Just taste as many different varieties as you can, there is no wrong opinion.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:54
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jacksbrat posted:The one glimmer of solace. Who knows - there's talks to restart devolution and considering Alliance biting at the DUP in their seats and SF getting some pretty spooky swings out west (losing 8-9% in solid seats and getting obliterated in Foyle) I think there may be some incentive to evade an election in Feb/March which is what is being talked about at the minute. Will see but I'm imagining SF may go a little bit quite on border poll now and focus on devolution must be restored to prevent Tory direct rule for the imminent future.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:54
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Kreeblah posted:This. Yes, I tend to agree. If you're in a contest and your opponent whips their dick out and starts pissing all over you, you HAVE to respond in kind. Otherwise you just end up soaking wet, while your opponent points at you and says: "well, you can't vote for them, they're covered in piss!" Evidence: the 2019 election. I appreciate Corbyn's principle of "when they go low, we go high" but it's probably the one thing that I'd criticize him on. When poo poo was being flung at us (to slightly alter the metaphor), we should have been flinging poo poo right back and to hell with how fair or decorous it was.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:54
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/who-will-be-the-next-labour-party-leader Tossup between Rayner and Long-Bailey. I like Emily Thornberry generally but she hasn't been raised in the McDonnell tradition of gutting opponents like fish.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:54
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Beefeater1980 posted:If you’re going to be combative you need to go 100%. Rallies, anger, full on class war, pushing the boundaries every day, daring the police to stop you at every turn, outright hostility and contempt to the biased media, ideally of the type that makes stupid people nod along and go “yeah”. But the key thing is the incrementalism: pushing the boundary just a little bit more each time. It’s a fundamentally immoral way of doing things but it works; we know this because the right has done it successfully since Karl Rove in the US. Class war isn’t going to cut it, I think. Those you’d want to be leading it are fully in line with the ‘gently caress immigrants, no surrender, nationalism all the way’, and will dismiss class action not in keeping with white ‘keep the economic power structures the same just deprive immigrants of them’ ideas. The vox pops with a lot of people in these areas dismissing the things Corbyn wanted to introduce to make their lives better were dismissed as ‘fairy tales and socialism’. That’s not a mindset that will favour economic redistribution from top to bottom.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:56
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Kreeblah posted:This. Left and right voters are asymmetric. Getting caught doing shady, cynical poo poo depresses leftist voters whereas conservatives see cheating and lying, win-at-all costs behaviour as tough and smart.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:57
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/who-will-be-the-next-labour-party-leader Rebecca Long-Bailey.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:58
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/who-will-be-the-next-labour-party-leader Starmer
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Dec 13, 2019 09:58
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I woke up and read the news and now I'm tired again. At least I'll make a killing on all these palettes of dog insulin I er, found.
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Dec 13, 2019 09:59
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Has there been any info regarding overall turnout and percentage of votes per party?
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Dec 13, 2019 09:59
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Angela Rayner because she recently wrote a very cogent piece about gently caress the lib dems in general, so she's got my vote
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Dec 13, 2019 10:01
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Paperhouse posted:Has there been any info regarding overall turnout and percentage of votes per party? Saw this on twitter https://twitter.com/electoralreform/status/1205378194334978049?s=20
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Dec 13, 2019 10:01
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/who-will-be-the-next-labour-party-leader RLB or Rayner.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:01
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This is so loving poo poo My instinctive reaction is to hope for Angela Rayner
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Dec 13, 2019 10:02
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Yeah. The problem with crossing lines and ditching morals is that if something like this happened to Corbyn, he'd be ousted the next day https://twitter.com/prchovanec/status/1204972523240198144?s=19 If it happens to Bojo, nobody gives a poo poo, it's par for the course. When you ditch the morals at the beginning you can do anything. And that's why this vote is depressing and short of a coup the best thing is migration to a country that you identify with more - using the free movement against the free capital, which is one of the last weapons people have (for now).
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Dec 13, 2019 10:03
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Another for RLB or Rayner.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:03
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I know Labour was never the answer but I feel a bit rudderless now they've been loving trounced. I'm volunteering with Crisis over Christmas and I'm gonna get in contact with Food Not Bombs I guess but i don't really know how to translate those kind of.... symptomatic, community-based approaches into anything bigger? I dunno, I don't expect any of you to have the answer either, and I'm worried that a lot of people right now are going to feel pretty directionless and without momentum (pun unintended)
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Dec 13, 2019 10:05
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How many PLP nominations will leader hopefuls require to get on the ballot?
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Dec 13, 2019 10:08
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