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Gone over the last couple of years in my head and I cant help but feel Corbyn was right from the start but wasn't able to pursue the path he wanted. I remember when he whipped for article 50, and everyone complained. He didn't want to come for a 2nd referendum either but wanted to deliver a Labour brexit, I don't know how you people remember it but to me it looked like he was strong armed into a 2nd referendum by his own allies, everyone told him to go remain and or 2nd referendum, but I think Corbyn himself would have instead focused around delivering a Labour Brexit instead of a 2nd referendum and this staying neutral stuff. So it seems to me Labours mistake was not trying to deliver a Labour soft brexit instead. I believe Corbyns political instincts told him this and it's what he was going for initially, and it seems he has good political instincts, better than his allies.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:07
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CGI Stardust posted:anyone feeling hopeless, take some time away from politics if you can. poo poo's unpredictable and chaotic, it'll only get more so, you never know what'll happen. an opportunity may come. or might not. who knows. It doesn't feel chaotic at all. It feels like an orderly shift to the right that will push us all off a cliff sooner rather than later. Progressive problem solving sounds more and more like a bunch of powerless people multiplying by zero. All ideas and no path to make those ideas a reality.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:08
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I'm seeing a few people saying "well at least the majority is big enough he won't be beholden to the ERG any more and it may tone down some of his worst impulses" which is, like, a take, but I've got nothing. Last night was awful but I enjoyed the bit of it I spent in the chat. I hit the bottle pretty hard when the exit poll went up so I didn't make it far but I hope everyone's OK.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:10
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This the result I feared and we're going to be in for a wild ride. The single thing that spooked me most during the campaign was a TV interview with a man in some town in the north of England. He and his partner and daughter were being interviewed in a special shop for people who can't afford to buy stuff from supermarkets. They had moved to this town basically as economic refugees from a place they could no longer afford to live in. This man said he liked what Boris was saying. This is what it's come to. There are too many people who aren't able to connect the dots between their personal circumstances and who in government is responsible for creating them and who could possibly make them better.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:10
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Saith posted:And again we vote labour and get the tories I thought Wales was in itself a fan of Brexit.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:15
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big scary monsters posted:European migrants aren't necessarily particularly uneducated. There are plenty of Poles with graduate degrees working as hotel cleaners in richer countries right now. Yeah. Immigrants are often also more susceptible to anti-union intimidation and pressure from bosses because they have fewer resources and less stability than domestic workers, who will (usually) have family and assets to fall back on if their job is threatened. These are solvable problems, if we cultivate a labour movement that doesn't pander to xenophobia and isn't endemically reluctant to deal foreigners in on union business.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:15
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Is Mermaid the charity that people are donating to in the aftermath of this?
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Dec 13, 2019 13:17
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Pesmerga posted:Yeah, the ‘working class’ as a concept no longer has meaning, particularly in the U.K. and US. I mean, they’re an entire apolitical (or at least see themselves as such) that just like being told what to do by powerful interests, because then they don’t have to think about things for themselves. All the vox pops this morning have people repeating the same media lines of ‘fairy tales’, ‘socialism’, ‘get Brexit done’ and talking about immigrants. They’re a lunpenproletariat, except one that doesn’t seem susceptible to arguments from the left, which they hate. If they would vote for Labour again, it would only be one that promises more for them, less for foreigners, and leaves everything else pretty much alone and doesn’t ‘politicise’ anything. The BNP with some very light redistribution basically. Eh, disagree. At least in most of Europe there is still a working-class identity and a sense of shared interest and political alignment. The thing is, it's not economic but cultural. The common enemy is no longer capital, which is so distant and pervasive it has become basically transparent, but rather the educated professional class and its affectations. The self-perception has shifted from emphasizing "we're the people who actually make things, unlike the rich parasites" to "we're the ordinary decent folks with common sense, unlike the moralizing ivory-tower academics". And that's why the left is taking such a drubbing. Historically, socialist movements were only successful when they could forge an alliance between the workers and the intelligentsia, one organizing labor power in their immediate economic interest and the other making the moral/theoretical case for socialism and pulling powerful institutions leftward. There's always friction due to different life experiences etc., and victory for socialists is strongly dependent on being able to overcome it. Where the right wins it's because they're able to successfully drive a wedge between these two groups, by appealing either to working class distrust of fancy-pants intellectuals or urbane types' disdain for the backward masses. Guildencrantz fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 13:21
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Pesmerga posted:Randomly thought of that scene where Agent Smith says that originally the Matrix was intended to be a utopia where everyone’s needs were met and desires granted, and it was a colossal failure because people couldn’t accept it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qs3GlNZMhY
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Dec 13, 2019 13:21
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It was the brexit election and labour tried to make it the NHS election but failed
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Dec 13, 2019 13:22
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Reminder that Jess Philips is a toxic Terf/swerf and that no one should vote for her.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:24
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Jel Shaker posted:It was the brexit election and labour tried to make it the NHS election but failed It feels like the Tories have 40% baked in always, no matter what. All the time, forever. So labour not turning out means they suddenly win.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:25
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I've had my cry and drank myself unconscious, now I've woken up and I just feel white hot rage. Please for the love of god someone tell me how to disperse this. Thank gently caress my partner is coming through later so we can cry and rage together.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:25
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learnincurve posted:Reminder that Jess Philips is a toxic Terf/swerf and that no one should vote for her. This is why you will carry on losing. This stupid idealistic purity test. If you tell everyone to gently caress off and vote Tory, well, they just loving did. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 13, 2019 13:26
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The discord chat last night was brilliant for stopping me becoming too depressed, thanks anyone who was there. We can still look out for each other and our loved ones and do our best to make a difference in our own small ways.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:26
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I'm loving ashamed of Wales and ashamed to be Welsh.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:27
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Yeah, the greatest trick the right has pulled with its stranglehold on media is to convince everyone that class is an identity based on values not economic status.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:27
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Also lol Pollyanna Toynbee putting the boot in through her guardian article , wasn’t she handwringing about the tories getting revenge only a few days ago?
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Dec 13, 2019 13:28
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tentish klown posted:This is why you will carry on losing. This stupid idealistic purity test. If you tell everyone to gently caress off and vote Tory, well, they just loving did. Go gently caress yourself signed, a trans woman whose existence is threatened by this fascist government and the TERF Blairite who wants to take over the Labour Party
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Dec 13, 2019 13:28
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tentish klown posted:This is why you will carry on losing. This stupid idealistic purity test. If you tell everyone to gently caress off and vote Tory, well, they just loving did. People are dying.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:29
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Also please someone reassure me that I - a diabetic person - am not going to be killed because of brexity nhs shenanigans. I'm seriously asking. I'm very very scared.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:30
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stev posted:People are dying. And more people will die BECAUSE of the hard left taking over the labour party. If you can't see that pretty much anyone would have been better than Corbyn, because he's loving toxic, then that's on you.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:31
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tentish klown posted:And more people will die BECAUSE of the hard left taking over the labour party. If you can't see that pretty much anyone would have been better than Corbyn, because he's loving toxic, then that's on you. gently caress off
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Dec 13, 2019 13:33
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tentish klown posted:This is why you will carry on losing. This stupid idealistic purity test. If you tell everyone to gently caress off and vote Tory, well, they just loving did. "I don't want someone who thinks trans women aren't real women in government" isn't a purity test. It is the absolute, absolute minimum you should expect from your representatives.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:34
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tentish klown posted:And more people will die BECAUSE of the hard left taking over the labour party. If you can't see that pretty much anyone would have been better than Corbyn, because he's loving toxic, then that's on you. gently caress you, this wasn't Corbyn's loss
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Dec 13, 2019 13:35
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tentish klown posted:And more people will die BECAUSE of the hard left taking over the labour party. If you can't see that pretty much anyone would have been better than Corbyn, because he's loving toxic, then that's on you. Gary Younge posted:Corbyn’s departure creates a problem for centrists. They have been predicting this moment since before he was elected leader. When events failed to comply – when the party reelected him with a greater majority or the country gave him more seats and votes – they waited for the next event. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The trouble is, with him leaving they will now have to produce an agenda and a candidate of their own, and then offer those up to a party that has grown in size, even if it is momentarily diminished in confidence. Labour won’t win again until it works out why it lost
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Dec 13, 2019 13:36
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tentish klown posted:This is why you will carry on losing. This stupid idealistic purity test. If you tell everyone to gently caress off and vote Tory, well, they just loving did. Bollocks, if you think treating trans women and sex workers with basic respect is too much to ask then you can go gently caress yourself. Signed the entire LGBT+ community.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:36
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Being a massively racist born to rule toff who wants to destroy a country for personal gain: not toxic Some old socialist who said maybe we can be nicer to poor people: toxic Is this neoliberal consensus?
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Dec 13, 2019 13:36
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Hey guys LibDem got like 11.5% of the vote but only got like 2% of the seats. So what’s up with that
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Dec 13, 2019 13:37
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Truly this time ' kill all the poor  " will defeat "kill all the poor  ", it's centreism's time to shine.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:37
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ThomasPaine posted:Also please someone reassure me that I - a diabetic person - am not going to be killed because of brexity nhs shenanigans. I'm seriously asking. I'm very very scared. You are not going to die. I honestly believe the NHS will be the last and final breaking point for the UK electorate. Encroachment on that will end up with violent protests, and everyone knows it. There is no way that the people who voted Tory this election voted to destroy the NHS. The demographics don't add up. Boris has unwittingly inherited an NHS loving population and he'll have to shift his position to accommodate it.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:37
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I would say that losing the NHS is enough to shock people who voted for Brexit, but we all know that won’t happen.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:37
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Being a massively racist born to rule toff who wants to destroy a country for personal gain: not toxic Nah, this is the emerging neonationalist consensus. Welcome to the rise of the Second British Empire!
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Dec 13, 2019 13:38
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ThomasPaine posted:Also please someone reassure me that I - a diabetic person - am not going to be killed because of brexity nhs shenanigans. I'm seriously asking. I'm very very scared.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:38
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vaguely posted:as i posted last night when the results started coming in, the last thing labour supporters should be doing now is giving up. there are half a million members and millions more voters who wanted a better future, and since we know we can't get that from electoral politics we'll have to do it directly, ourselves. take a rest for now but when you're able have a think about what you, personally, materially, can do to make your little part of these grey lovely islands a bit less nightmarish for the people around you. This guy/gal/non-binary pal is spot on, IMO. Do this, and use the existing labour party and other apparatus to find other people doing it too. It's a great way to make socialism a tangible good thing in people' s immediate lives, and start breaking through the bullshit from there. The power wielded by the capitalist class is, clearly, so enormous that we shouldn't reasonably expect to tackle it head on any more, so we should look at other means of accumulating our own power like this.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:38
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Condolences UK goons. https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1205375774016122881?s=19 There's a silver lining at least.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:38
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As I said earlier, if anyone knows of good alternatives to current politics I would be welcome to hear about it. Also again, I think I am sad atm, I keep randomly crying. But it is nice to see that my brother and SIL have become more and more radical.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:39
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Rakosi posted:You are not going to die. I honestly believe the NHS will be the last and final breaking point for the UK electorate. Encroachment on that will end up with violent protests, and everyone knows it. There is no way that the people who voted Tory this election voted to destroy the NHS. The demographics don't add up. Boris has unwittingly inherited an NHS loving population and he'll have to shift his position to accommodate it. No way lol. People will rationalize it away because that’s what they do. NHS will have been Bad All Along.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:39
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Stereotype posted:Hey guys LibDem got like 11.5% of the vote but only got like 2% of the seats. being 3rd/4th in a bunch of seats adds up to total vote share, FPTP is poo poo
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Dec 13, 2019 13:39
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Pollyanna posted:No way lol. People will rationalize it away because that’s what they do. NHS will have been Bad All Along. nah, it'll be 'oh no it got broken by too many people using it (you know which ones) sad that it wasn't sustainable but here we are'
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Dec 13, 2019 13:41
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