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If a Blairite had gone into last night's election, the Tories would have won a supermajority e: February 14th 1989: Ayatollah Khomeini places a fatwa on Salman Rushdie for The Satanic Verses. Rushdie is thankfully still alive today. Venomous fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 15:36
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Question from a non-UK citizen: I heard a news story before the election in which a prospective voter was interviewed and was enthusiastic about Labour's plan of re-nationalisation of utilities...but not broadband. He was specifically against that. Then this morning I read a Labour candidate saying that the free broadband proposal was extremely unpopular among all the people he spoke to while canvassing. What am I missing about this? How is free broadband a repellant idea?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:37
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Aidan_702 posted:Lol this reminds me of when I actually said to myself, “maybe now that he’s won, Trump will just be happy and be more of a New York Democrat” i had similiar thoughts. i didn't realise trumps brain was actually melting and he'd go more insane.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:37
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Venomous posted:The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the electorate voted for the Tories because they were the only British nationalist party in the race. Labour was insufficiently British and patriotic, led by an internationalist anti-British MP. But nationalism is not a solution to the problem. It cannot be. Because nationalism demands empire or isolation, and both pose an existential threat to the species. Nationalism may win the votes, but it will not solve the problem. Any more than getting rid of socialism would. We require an internationalist, socialist framework for our society, everything else has been tried, and failed, and directly killed countless people in the process.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:37
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Thanks for this, never came across Kate Tempest before but she's exactly the mood I need today. Before I transition to angry thrash metal later, at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDuLEWQGmwc quote:Every pain Honestly it's pretty clear that Brexit has hosed Labour. I've always been a lot more Lexit inclined than most of the thread, and I can see how the vacillation and remain entryism from the likes of Starmer has badly affected trust in the party from 'traditional' voters. I do wish Labour had held on to and sold a soft Brexit perspective, rather than getting overwhelmed with centerist liberal peoples vote bollocks. So now we have five years of Johnson and pretty much the hardest Brexit possible. And more worrying, he has a free hand to implement everything else his manifesto obliquely referred to, i.e 'updating' the human rights act, voter ID, gerrymandering constituencies, gently caress all action on climate change, possible insurrection in a Scotland denied an independence vote and a NI which suddenly has to deal with a border in the North Sea. I'm not looking forward to the next five years. But the fight is not over. The party needs to hold firm to the left, as any movement towards centerist hand wringing and triangulation will destroy them as an actually useful political force. I have confidence that either RLB or Rayner will be elected as the next leader, both from the obvious realpolitik of needing a female leader next and because the changes in party structures over the past four years favour leftist candidates. My concern right now is whether between a disastrous Brexit and probable financial crash we have a resurgence in five years, or if we've lost an entire generation. If it's a generation, the zoomers will loving eat us all. As always though, I'm conscious that I'm in a pretty privileged position where I can ride out the next 5/10 years . My thoughts and charity work will be with all the comrades who are going to get hosed over. E: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSMffdtyOwI quote:It's coming to pass RockyB fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 15:37
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Power Windows posted:Question from a non-UK citizen: I think maybe people just thought it was a lie? I only heard about it like last week and even to me it felt a bit desperate
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Dec 13, 2019 15:38
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tentish klown posted:No, they're not. The hard left alienate centrist voters, who are necessary to get enough votes to actually get into power. There's no point in being political if you can't change anything, so you need the votes. lmao we got 40% last time and thrashed the centre again last night gently caress off, you're deader than squirrel wallets
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Dec 13, 2019 15:38
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Power Windows posted:Question from a non-UK citizen: blunt posted:Unironically, I think free state owned broadband (which in abstract is a good policy) was the sort of policy that put people off. When you're already trying to convince a skeptical electorate that we can nationalise power, water, transport etc, broadband is the sort of thing that comes across as frivolous and undercuts how serious you are about the rest of it.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:39
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kaesarsosei posted:The days of a majority, true left-wing Labour government are gone and will never happen again. Portugal wants a word. They have an uneployment rate lower than most scandinavian countries these days, and that was not the case before they got a left wing majority. There's absolutely a mandate for the policies of Labour, but they can't let the party get hijacked by urban liberals who couldnt give a rats rear end about rural problems or the consequences of globalization. Brexit was a no win situation for Labour.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:40
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https://twitter.com/garyyounge/status/1205494808082558976 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/labour-why-lost-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-media Pretty good analysis, the most telling point of which is in the preview there. I warned people about building a cult of personality around the man himself, and I hope that the people who did will realise that they don't have to abandon their principles just because he's goine.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:41
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OwlFancier posted:But nationalism is not a solution to the problem. It cannot be. Because nationalism demands empire or isolation, and both pose an existential threat to the species. I agree with every word you're saying. Nationalism cannot and will not be the solution to any problem we're facing and are about to face. The electorate does not agree though, because the British public is wrong about everything, and that loving sucks balls.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:41
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Power Windows posted:What am I missing about this? How is free broadband a repellant idea? Honestly, it sounded dumb even to me and I’m the kind of London-dwelling techie that should presumably have liked it. It’s not something that people are used to hearing about being nationally owned, it has weird surveillance/control implications, it sounds unrealistic to people who are currently paying like £60 a month for internet, it makes people scared that we’re going to frighten off the billionaires who own the internet now (we like billionaires cause they help the economy don’t they!!), it sounds out of touch/wasteful/threatening to people who are old and don’t like or care about the internet, and, I dunno, it’s just kind of out there. It’s a young person’s policy and he didn’t need to appeal to young people more.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:42
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I’m gonna guess there’s a huge generational divide when it comes to the perception of nationalised broadband as “frivolous.”
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Dec 13, 2019 15:43
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People still think of broadband as being some kind of frivolous luxury, and as such an expensive handout for kids to play Fortnite with, when really it is the backbone of the entire corporate world and very obviously a net gain for the country from that perspective, but I don't think Labour communicated that at all. In all honesty, the overstuffed manifesto was a problem, in hindsight. Some key talking points are all that are needed, and you should just do all the other stuff anyway when you get into power.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:43
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The broadband was a good idea but I agree that I think a lot of people didn't understand why and just waved it off as a stupid idea.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:44
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goddamnedtwisto posted:https://twitter.com/garyyounge/status/1205494808082558976 what about the memes, twisto, what about the memes
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Dec 13, 2019 15:45
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:Non-UK goon here wondering about context: I see people placing a lot of blame on Corbyn but very little mention of what appeared to be organized media campaign against him, such as BBC editing clips of Johnson to appear more palatable. Those instances seemed like a big deal in the leadup to the election but seems forgotten at this point. Given failure after failure from Tories it's just shocking they keep getting voted in, and I wonder how much of it is their politics and how much of it is shoddy campaign laws? The press demonising a labour leader is one of the few things which never changes in U.K. politics
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Dec 13, 2019 15:47
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Thank you for the responses. I really value the UKMT for hearing about what's really happening in the UK. Love and solidarity to you guys.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:53
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it seems like it was just a badly run campaign from the top, at best a gamble that failed just focussing on the wrong things, trying to go offensive in doomed ways instead of picking up what probably should have been extremely evident about the heartlands and mistaking a large party membership and eager volunteers for grassroots support on the ground whereas cummies just did what he did with brexit, take a single message and cram it down peoples throats and flood them with lying facebook ads
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Dec 13, 2019 15:54
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CGI Stardust posted:what are we going to sing Luckily neither Kier Starmer or Jess Phillips have the right amount of syllables in their names for Seven Nation Army, but unfortunately that also loses us Dawn Butler. (Oh) Angela Rayner and Rebecca Long-Bailey now joint favourites for the job.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:55
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To give up control of the party now would be stupid. Every struggle over the last few years would be undone. Having a Labour party with the same policies of the right with a concerned face doesn't help anyone and wouldn't have helped last night anyway. We still have a genuine leftist voice in mainstream politics even if people don't want to vote for it yet. The time will come when an alternative to the current state of affairs needs to be ready and available and as we've seen establishing that within the party is like pulling teeth. Edit: Agree the broadband was weirdly unpopular, people just thought it was stupid. Next time we need to reduce ambition and focus on a few clear popular policies like rail and work a bit at a time. Algol Star fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 15:55
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Dec 13, 2019 15:56
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Luckily neither Kier Starmer or Jess Phillips have the right amount of syllables in their names for Seven Nation Army, but unfortunately that also loses us Dawn Butler. (Oh) Angela Rayner and Rebecca Long-Bailey now joint favourites for the job. Starmer Starmer Starmer Starmer Starmer Starmeleon.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:57
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Jel Shaker posted:I’m still not clear what the Labour brexit policy was, so maybe that’s an issue This really is the crux for a majority of why undecideds broke for the Tories. If one party is promising you a certain apocalypse while the other is maybe an apocalypse but a slightly nicer one or maybe no apocalypse or a lot of maybes and hemming and hawing. Why not just vote for death is certain?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:58
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PT6A posted:I’m gonna guess there’s a huge generational divide when it comes to the perception of nationalised broadband as “frivolous.” No I heard it from younger voters that it seemed silly and was just a bribe. I liked it but with hindsight it was a dumb thing to put in the manifesto.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:59
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blunt posted:Unironically, I think free state owned broadband (which in abstract is a good policy) was the sort of policy that put people off. When you're already trying to convince a skeptical electorate that we can nationalise power, water, transport etc, broadband is the sort of thing that comes across as frivolous and undercuts how serious you are about the rest of it. Nationalisation itself does not have much tract as well, especially if it's over and above the trains which are an obvious privatisation disaster.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:00
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As it turns out Corbyn shoulda purged the party who could have forseen this. I think bojo firing all those tories was a benefit to him since he could successfully draw a line between him and the old guard. Plus it looks like leadership, sitting around on top of a party of mps who loving hate you and who the public don't give a poo poo about and associate with new Labour doesn't help anyone
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Dec 13, 2019 16:01
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There are plenty of evident flaws with the campaign in hindsight, but it definitely wasn't unreasonable to believe that people were loving sick of everything and would respond well to a big, energetic blowout campaign.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:01
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feedmegin posted:Traditionally, over here that's the Lib Dem base. Really, I always thought of them as the urban well off party.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:02
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https://twitter.com/LukePagarani/status/1205487970897342464
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Dec 13, 2019 16:03
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His Divine Shadow posted:Really, I always thought of them as the urban well off party. Slightly less sociopathic Tories
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Dec 13, 2019 16:03
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biglads posted:Slightly less sociopathic Tories Yes.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:05
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Lid posted:This really is the crux for a majority of why undecideds broke for the Tories. If one party is promising you a certain apocalypse while the other is maybe an apocalypse but a slightly nicer one or maybe no apocalypse or a lot of maybes and hemming and hawing. Also 2nd ref is just remain. So you lose your leaver voters cause absolutely no leaver is stupid enough to not realise this. But the fence sitting also means you don't even fully reap the remain vote so it's worst of both worlds. We knew this was a risk and yep, it hosed us real hard. Theres gonna be arguments about this for years but inasmuch as anything could have been done I think the most likely route to success or holding firm was probably lexit in retrospect. You could defend the heartlands and try to split the tories. Whereas what we did ended up letting the tories utterly run away with it with no opposition while we fought for the divided scraps of the remain vote.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:05
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Rustybear posted:ok i'll bite. this time last year tmay was supposed to be safe from a leadership challenge for exactly 1 year. politics is highly unpredictable. Yes of course anyone taking over would be subject to more of the same, but there's a big difference between 1-2 years of smears and 4 years of them. Just look at how Labour performed in terms of vote share between 2015>17 and 2017>19. In 2017 Corbyn had the benefit of the doubt among less informed voters, but by 2019 that goodwill had gone. I'm not saying someone should sit down and hammer out a rigid schedule where we will rotate in the next leader on precisely date X like replacing a smoke alarm, I'm saying that this is a contingency Labour need to be very prepared for if we want Corbyn's project to continue. If we get 2-3 years down the line and the public has been successfully convinced the next Labour leader is working for ISIS, then it's reckless not to have a backup plan.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:05
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This is a real good point, and something the left needs to work hard at unpicking: https://twitter.com/LukePagarani/status/1205488832323444739?s=19
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Dec 13, 2019 16:15
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Something of note that in Bedford I mentioned that Muslims who normally vote Labour had heard that Corbyn "supports Assad" and that was putting them off. So clearly there's been some insidious poo poo being spread about Corbyn on like WhatsApp groups.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:17
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:People still think of broadband as being some kind of frivolous luxury, and as such an expensive handout for kids to play Fortnite with, when really it is the backbone of the entire corporate world and very obviously a net gain for the country from that perspective, but I don't think Labour communicated that at all. They did communicate it, but as usual the media twisted it to appear as a frivolous policy in a way that was much easier for them than NHS spending or education. In hindsight the manifesto should have been kept as simple and streamlined as possible. Instead a lot of the public saw it as an unachievable wish-list.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:17
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I was a bit clueless about the broadband thing. Was it just nationalise open reach to take control of infrastructure or was it full blown BT only game in town again? Either way it seemed a odd thing to shout about when no one was really asking for it?
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Dec 13, 2019 16:18
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I don't know how you dismantle that when society is structured such that their only contact with it is some vague sense of nationalism because there is no politically communal space any more.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:18
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a pipe smoking dog posted:No I heard it from younger voters that it seemed silly and was just a bribe. The nationalised fibre infrastructure was and is an *excellent* idea, but headlining it with a free service is what made it seem frivolous. No reason at all you couldn't keep it at, say, fifteen quid a month line rental for a basic service with a discount/full rebate for people on benefits. After all we weren't offering free electricity, water or other utilities.
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Dec 13, 2019 16:18
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