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apropos to nothing posted:its definitely a case where people adopt some kind of left wing ideology as an identity and then shop around for others who also are part of that identity. then yeah, a lot of times they get recruited to groups which are sects or even sometimes political cults that basically manipulate people. its very sad and unfortunate. 9/10 times if im having a convo with someone and they ask "so what tendency/kind of socialist are you" or "so you guys are trotskyist right?" i just write it off and accept that theyre not going to get organized with us or anyone else in anyway cause theyre more interested in organizing as a thought exercise than a concrete task. so there's a weird gap here between what these ultras say (and who they're willing to work with) and what the governments who they "uphold" say. that's my impression at least anyways, if we're talking about pods, i subscribed to the premium version of YCW, and they'll do episodes on adorno and so on. but it's like "adorno... what's up with that guy? kinda weird. maybe he had something interesting to say" and then getfiscal will translate all this complicated french gobbledegook into a very, very, simple format that a poster like me can understand. kind of like the cliffnotes version. but it's also conversational and i'll listen to it while doing chores and the like. 
BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 21:30
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Jokes aside, my first experience with left organizing was in one of these microsects, one with particularly culty aspects to it. It was one of the most unpleasant social experiences of my life, and it turned me off to doing more than showing up for the occasional march or rally for almost a decade. There seem to be fewer of them around these days and that's a good thing. a little weird. bizarrely, this same person had a relative who knew avakian back in the 1970s and hated his guts. he was also a big scumbag and a homophobe and they got into an argument about something. this was pre-RCP i think, and the friend's relative suggested a slogan for a sign like "striking a blow against imperialism," and then avakian shot back "i bet you like to give good blows huh"
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Dec 12, 2019 21:37
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:well i think it's kind of like a communism fandom, and they're often involved in groups but these are like dogmatic sects with the theorists being treated as like flawless super-gurus or geniuses or whatever. i think their underlying problem is their insistence on "upholding" various historical figures and states and having the correct "line" on these questions (you can tell i'm talking about the PSL here). stalin must be upheld, etc. and they build their organizational independence around these questions. but that doesn't really have much to do with strategy or practice. these questions might not have much practical value so it becomes an empty (albeit glorified) intellectual exercise. in actual practice they might not be any more revolutionary than the DSA is. paradoxically, they might be even less so because a dogmatic insistence on line doesn't allow you to grow or do very much, and they never really break out of that. i remember a cspam poster categorizing a lot of these debates as being 'useful, if you like historical trivia.' that's a bit harsher than i'd put it, but gets at the same point: many debates that have historically caused leftist infighting/splitting are only orthogonally related to achieving the goals socialist orgs set for themselves today, at least at this historical juncture or w/e edit: if you're subscribed to YCW and like the bookchat stuff, maybe join the discord. they're pretty good about answering questions or explaining things in that conversational way, and the chat is relaxed and friendly Finicums Wake fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 21:41
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Serf posted:too often i run into people who are like "yeah i'm a socialist but the bolsheviks were wrong to do a violent revolution. also markets are good. sankara, who's that?" many people are asking, who is joseph galt?
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Dec 12, 2019 21:49
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Centrist Committee posted:I learned about sankara from POD CASTERS because the rest of the internet is irony poisoned, these forums included anyone who didnt learn about sankara from the lf thread is a revisionist
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Dec 12, 2019 21:50
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i learned about sankara from a coworker who was from burkina faso back in college. also twitter memes
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Dec 12, 2019 21:52
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I read a book about Burkina Faso
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Dec 12, 2019 22:18
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was it any good?
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Dec 12, 2019 22:21
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The Shitposting Revolution
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Dec 12, 2019 22:23
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the dumpsterfire next time
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Dec 12, 2019 22:40
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GalacticAcid posted:... one day ill be less stupid 
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Dec 12, 2019 22:41
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Venom Snake posted:one day ill be less stupid i can still see that image of you looking at hillary in the front row of the debate in my minds eye
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Dec 12, 2019 22:43
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apropos to nothing posted:for example: newspapers. write them, produce them, sell them. wtf is with you trots and newspapers srsly
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Dec 12, 2019 22:45
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it's like anarchists and their zines with you people
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Dec 12, 2019 22:46
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Dreddout posted:wtf is with you trots and newspapers srsly at least it made sense when newsboys still existed
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Dec 12, 2019 22:49
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gonna write all my good assed ideas on this vellum scroll and try to get the kids into them
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Dec 12, 2019 22:50
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anarchists are just trots with too much social anxiety to finish writing a whole newspaper so they just do a 3 page zine
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Dec 12, 2019 23:23
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anyway real talk it's funny to debate which ideological tendency is the stupidest or whatever but if you dont think the rich must die for their crimes, you're a liberal and you should go campaign for warren or whatever it is makes those people happy. not that I think theres many libs that read this thread
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Dec 12, 2019 23:25
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Dreddout posted:wtf is with you trots and newspapers srsly what it is is that people buy them and read them and consider our ideas and sometimes even become socialists from them. also yall are all out of touch with the yung uns, young people love the newspapers and wanna buy them, also union people who wanna read what we say
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Dec 13, 2019 01:26
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thanks for illustrating my point though. the trots like newspapers. newspaper trots. trots+newspapers=lol. try writing, producing, and then selling your ideas as a regular newspaper or magazine and you will find a lot of people become attracted to your ideas when they can read them
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Dec 13, 2019 01:28
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you boys like newspapers!?!? i'll show you some newspapers!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k67IxOvTlB4&t=89s
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Dec 13, 2019 01:31
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Labour lost for the same reason Clinton did: they went too far left.
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Dec 13, 2019 02:42
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That reddit post couldn't swing the election, too bad.
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Dec 13, 2019 03:01
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Homeless Friend posted:i can still see that image of you looking at hillary in the front row of the debate in my minds eye i got to meet donna, so it wasn't all bad. still i find my guilt over everything is getting worse again as we get closer to 2020
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Dec 13, 2019 06:13
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Larry Parrish posted:anyway real talk it's funny to debate which ideological tendency is the stupidest or whatever but if you dont think the rich must die for their crimes, you're a liberal and you should go campaign for warren or whatever it is makes those people happy. not that I think theres many libs that read this thread classic larry
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Dec 13, 2019 07:03
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apropos to nothing posted:what it is is that people buy them and read them and consider our ideas and sometimes even become socialists from them. also yall are all out of touch with the yung uns, young people love the newspapers and wanna buy them, also union people who wanna read what we say go do tiktok videos instead
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Dec 13, 2019 12:12
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doing the Leon Trotsky dance to Panic! At the Disco's High Hopes
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Dec 13, 2019 12:59
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good things aren't possible but at least we can die fighting for socialism with ~honour~
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Dec 13, 2019 20:28
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Dec 13, 2019 20:32
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apropos to nothing posted:thanks for illustrating my point though. the trots like newspapers. newspaper trots. trots+newspapers=lol. try writing, producing, and then selling your ideas as a regular newspaper or magazine and you will find a lot of people become attracted to your ideas when they can read them Seriously give me an estimate of how many newspapers you sell at a political rally
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Dec 13, 2019 20:37
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Dec 13, 2019 20:51
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Dreddout posted:Seriously give me an estimate of how many newspapers you sell at a political rally depends on the size and what’s going on. smaller side it might only be a couple, but larger protests or when major events have been happening we sell hundreds
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Dec 13, 2019 21:36
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what the gently caress is a trot in modern context anyway. i know who leon trotsky was and what his relationship with stalin was; vaguely; stalin wanted to focus on building communism in the USSR and trotsky had some grand international vision, right? is it an anarchist, or like a moderate socialist who is too afraid to go full syndicalist or communist and thinks youre dumb for doing so and forms coalitions with liberals because they think they're ~politically savvy~? please explain this to me as though you were speaking to a dopey ape because that is what i am. 
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Dec 13, 2019 21:44
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a trot is anyone you disagree with on the Internet
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Dec 13, 2019 21:46
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or someone you agree with, but dislike
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Dec 13, 2019 21:46
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trotsky is the guy going for the emptyquotes, gravedigger of the revolution is some good loving posting.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:46
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apropos to nothing posted:what it is is that people buy them and read them and consider our ideas and sometimes even become socialists from them. also yall are all out of touch with the yung uns, young people love the newspapers and wanna buy them, also union people who wanna read what we say When I was at a protest last year I saw a trot selling newspapers and cracked a joke about it to someone nearby. Their reaction was "Oh they're selling newspapers? Cool, I'll buy one." So gently caress me I guess.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:49
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Leon Trotsky once tried to open a door and could not it dogged him for the rest of his life
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Dec 13, 2019 22:06
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IWW Online Branch posted:When I was at a protest last year I saw a trot selling newspapers and cracked a joke about it to someone nearby. Their reaction was "Oh they're selling newspapers? Cool, I'll buy one." So gently caress me I guess. lol owned
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Dec 13, 2019 22:15
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Chillgamesh posted:what the gently caress is a trot in modern context anyway. i know who leon trotsky was and what his relationship with stalin was; vaguely; stalin wanted to focus on building communism in the USSR and trotsky had some grand international vision, right? is it an anarchist, or like a moderate socialist who is too afraid to go full syndicalist or communist and thinks youre dumb for doing so and forms coalitions with liberals because they think they're ~politically savvy~? please explain this to me as though you were speaking to a dopey ape because that is what i am. hellu monkye the major relevant discussion topic between trotskyists and marxist-leninists today is the form of organisation you need to be a serious contender against the big C (capitalism). marxism-leninism has always been in favour of democratic centralism, where internal debate has to lead to a firm party line where everybody in the party to the outside defends the line as good as possible to the masses (unless the masses have better arguments in which case ya gotta change the line buddy). the evaluation of the line happens after the campaign. the idea of this strategy is that in a world where everybody is bombarded with capitalist propaganda from everywhere you need a fortress of trotskyists agree with democratic centralism - in theory. in practice and in following of trotsky, trotskyist parties have something called the right to a tendency within the party, where you can look at the discussion that happened in your party, look at the conclusions and just go "no i'm not doing this". tendency right by design prioritizes the debate for the debate over strengthening the counterweight against capitalism. this is why many trotskyist parties and internationales split; because at one point you just tendency right yourself out of the party. like the cwi, a major trotskyist internationale, literally just split because a minority in the leadership did not agree with the line of that internationale
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