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It's literally the party anthem...
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Dec 13, 2019 22:39
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JordanKai posted:Oops. I didn't sleep very well last night, my bad. Eh, it was a very Stones-y tune, ain't nobody going to judge you for confusing two bands whose best periods were before almost all of us were born. Primal Scream were also a very Stones-y band (to an almost lawsuit-worthy extent at times) but their Come Together is more something that Shaun Ryder would sue over than Mick Jagger.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:40
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il_cornuto posted:And a lot of people didn't vote at all. Lately my mood has been drifting towards hating these folks the most despite myself. I don't want to wish ill on anyone, but gently caress... you have one job as a citizen. Get the gently caress out there. Preference voting and mandatory attendance (not voting) would both make a -huge- difference in the UK. Zakutambah fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 22:41
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Kill Bristol posted:People, especially older voters, like flags and patriotism and the feeling of being part of something. You can think it's dumb and that they shouldn't prioritize those things, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore them. You have to find a way for your platform to co-opt and harness those forces, or you leave them to be harnessed by the Trumps and Farages of the world. There is no good way to harness xenophobia & nationalism OP What do you think solidarity & class consciousness is built upon if not a feeling of being part of something?
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Dec 13, 2019 22:41
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Xenophobia, no. But patriotism and national pride aren't inherently bad things. They can be turned towards positive ends. It's just hard to do.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:44
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OwlFancier posted:But my conception of leftism is that we don't have those things, I have never had those things, I have never owned anything worthwhile, I have never had any status, I have never had patriotism. I don't even know what "british values" are other than something weird nationalists have because I have never been part of them. This comes down yet again to the view people have of the proletariat as like, straight, white, abled, traditionalist to a point of reactionary. I had a post about this earlier but I deleted it lol I know I keep yelling about being queer but I'm doing it again: I learned real young that Traditional British Values did not include me. Even on the left the prevailing narrative is that my concerns are those of academics. I don't really know what the answer here is, but acting like those of us who never felt at home with tradition are somehow the ones with power or being unfair to those who never found it necessary to question those grand narratives is boiling my piss. I can't think of a smart boy way to say this. My piss is boiled.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:44
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Eh, it was a very Stones-y tune, ain't nobody going to judge you for confusing two bands whose best periods were before almost all of us were born. What do you mean, were? They're still going, or did they split up and no-one tell me?
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Dec 13, 2019 22:45
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Socialism is not some invading nation, not to the people. Socialism is the nation of the people. Socialism invades and conquers those who rule us, but it can not invade and conquer us. I know that a lot of work has been done to paint it as some outside force but it isn't, it is what gives us the purpose that nationalism is a pale imitation of, a purpose of our own, not a purpose of some king or lord. To say that socialism is an attack on people's values is wrong. It is what the right tries to make it look like. It does not take away your values, it gives you better ones, it gives you ones that are not hollow. It, better than any other idea on the earth, knows that you need something to work for, and unifies that with what you need to live, too. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 22:45
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Socialism will not be passively accepted by those most likely to benefit from it, but it will be fought as if a foreign imposition.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:48
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:What do you mean, were? They're still going, or did they split up and no-one tell me? Yeah but they're not a very Stones-y band any more, are they? Or maybe they are, they've never kept the same sound for two albums in a row so it's possible they've gone all the way round the clock to Give Out But Don't Give Up.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:48
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Pesmerga posted:Socialism will not be passively accepted by those most likely to benefit from it, but it will be fought as if a foreign imposition. It's easier to believe the lie than confront the uncomfortable truth, especially when part of the uncomfortable truth is that it's your fault you believed the lie and it hurt you all your life.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:50
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People by and large don't get attached to abstract ideals though. They form attachments to concrete things, symbols, organizations, people. poo poo like flags and feelings of national pride demonstrably do matter to voters. You can't ignore that just because you think it's somehow gauche.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:51
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If they want a flag, give them one: the red flag.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:51
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Kill Bristol posted:People by and large don't get attached to abstract ideals though. They form attachments to concrete things, symbols, organizations, people. poo poo like flags and feelings of national pride demonstrably do matter to voters. You can't ignore that just because you think it's somehow gauche. What do you think the loving red flag is... Do I sound like someone who is not attached to symbols and feelings and organizations?
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Dec 13, 2019 22:52
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Dec 13, 2019 22:54
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bionic vapour boy posted:This comes down yet again to the view people have of the proletariat as like, straight, white, abled, traditionalist to a point of reactionary. I had a post about this earlier but I deleted it lol e: ^^ Please do not shame clothes pins on nipples by association with tories. 
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Dec 13, 2019 22:54
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At the pissmas party and speaking to people, even those who thought Corbyn a numpty, agree that this isn't on him, which is nice.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:56
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Kill Bristol posted:People by and large don't get attached to abstract ideals though. They form attachments to concrete things, symbols, organizations, people. poo poo like flags and feelings of national pride demonstrably do matter to voters. You can't ignore that just because you think it's somehow gauche. This is why focusing on tangible things like the NHS can be a good strategy. Make a bit of a narrative next time on the great social institutions like NHS, trains, etc as a point of national pride; and how ratfucked they've become since tory/private rule. That stuff was there a bit this time, but it did get overshadowed by Brexit. Worse, I think in people's minds it got twisted; once we've Brexit-ed, we'll be able to afford all these great things again. This is about where I blame willfully ignorant voters for not demanding from Boris a plan on how that was to happen.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:56
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Guavanaut posted:Every good queer scene (and probably half of the bad ones) I've known has been proley as gently caress and proud of it. The reason that the 'working class' is depicted as straight white men is because of intersectional biases which includes class biases. The Sun doesn't tell the working class to hate the poofs because that's what working classes do, it does that because that's what elites do and it's another way to distract from class issues. (And the only time they let up on that is when they can use it to bash Muslims.) Sadly traditional british values are not proley as gently caress, they are feudalist.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:56
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Kill Bristol posted:People by and large don't get attached to abstract ideals though. They form attachments to concrete things, symbols, organizations, people. poo poo like flags and feelings of national pride demonstrably do matter to voters. You can't ignore that just because you think it's somehow gauche. Yeah, people will scream about socialism being the greatest evil in the world and their utter love for the NHS in the same breath. The point is that we cannot play the "MAKE BRITANE GRATE" game without at the very least enabling the fash, even if we manage to completely avoid becoming them. Our equivalent has to be in creating, protecting, and extending the institutions that people love. With the benefit of hindsight, we absolutely should have made the NHS a much, much bigger part of our messaging both as our simple, repeated "GET BREXIT DONE" analogue, and as a way of dragging the Leavers back onside - hammer home Dennis Skinner's "United Nations heart bypass" story at every opportunity, because a Britain with no immigration is a Britain with no NHS.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:57
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I don't know if anyone was just talking about this, but Corbyn should have said gently caress it and have been pushing for a Labour Exit this whole time. It turns out everyone really did just want Brexit done and they voted for that over socialist domestic policies which they actually liked.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:57
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Zakutambah posted:This is why focusing on tangible things like the NHS can be a good strategy. Make a bit of a narrative next time on the great social institutions like NHS, trains, etc as a point of national pride; and how ratfucked they've become since tory/private rule. The problem actually is english nationalism and we need to stop ignoring/skirting around that issue Ash Crimson fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 22:57
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Zakutambah posted:This is why focusing on tangible things like the NHS can be a good strategy. Make a bit of a narrative next time on the great social institutions like NHS, trains, etc as a point of national pride; and how ratfucked they've become since tory/private rule. People DID demand that, Constantly, repeatedly. It doesn't matter if you demand answers from a con man, he's not going to give them, he's just going to scream the slogan even louder and rely on the fact that people don't actually want answers, they want slogans. Makes me wonder how we could have done if every Labour interviewee just screamed JAM AND SOCIALISM down the camera lens at every question.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:58
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Awful CompSloth posted:I don't know if anyone was just talking about this, but Corbyn should have said gently caress it and have been pushing for a Labour Exit this whole time. It turns out everyone really did just want Brexit done and they voted for that over socialist domestic policies which they actually liked. THIS WAS LITERALLY LABOUR POLICY FOR gently caress'S SAKE.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:59
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If that were true the media would have reported on it. 
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Dec 13, 2019 23:00
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Awful CompSloth posted:I don't know if anyone was just talking about this, but Corbyn should have said gently caress it and have been pushing for a Labour Exit this whole time. It turns out everyone really did just want Brexit done and they voted for that over socialist domestic policies which they actually liked. I'm not entirely sure sacrificing the hundred-odd seats we'd have definitely lost in the cities by going full Leave to save the 60 we lost in the towns and villages is the move we should have gone for.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:00
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It also isn't his decision to make, labour is supposed to be a democratic party.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:02
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Guavanaut posted:Every good queer scene (and probably half of the bad ones) I've known has been proley as gently caress and proud of it. The reason that the 'working class' is depicted as straight white men is because of intersectional biases which includes class biases. The Sun doesn't tell the working class to hate the poofs because that's what working classes do, it does that because that's what elites do and it's another way to distract from class issues. (And the only time they let up on that is when they can use it to bash Muslims.) I'm a few drinks in my friend, I can't tell if you're arguing with me or not. What I'm saying is: yeah, there's gay proles, the dominant narrative though of the Proper Working Clarse does not include us, so I'm deeply, deeply distrustful of people saying we as socialists need to think more about traditional british values (not just the person who I originally quoted, this has been a theme in the thread & around twitter all day)
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Dec 13, 2019 23:03
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thespaceinvader posted:THIS WAS LITERALLY LABOUR POLICY FOR gently caress'S SAKE. To be fair "remain or Labour deal" was pretty much a double remain choice in practice when you consider how close the first referendum was In practice Labour ran a tongue in cheek remain campaign with the Brexit party macheteing off chunks of leave voters from one end and the Libdems taking remain voters on the other end with their straight up "cancel Brexit at all costs" policy.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:03
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thespaceinvader posted:People DID demand that, Constantly, repeatedly. It doesn't matter if you demand answers from a con man, he's not going to give them, he's just going to scream the slogan even louder and rely on the fact that people don't actually want answers, they want slogans. Conservative voters didn't. That's who I'm referring too. Boris saying "I'll Brexit us and do it in a good way" was enough for them. That's the part that gets to me; I don't really get just trusting him that much. Labor this time had a very comprehensive manifesto that detailed a lot of -how- they were going to do things. But people weren't listening. Willful ignorance is hard to combat.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:04
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OwlFancier posted:I do not feel british, I do not feel a part of the country, because the country has never wanted me to be a part of it, the country barely exists, as far as I'm concerned. I feel like a part of the people around me, I feel like a part of the land I have lived on, I feel like a component in a machine of production that I have no say in the operation of, but I do not feel british, because I don't know what that is. This is exactly how I've always felt and it's nice to see it articulated in a way I never could. You're not the only one.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:04
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Yeah, people will scream about socialism being the greatest evil in the world and their utter love for the NHS in the same breath. The point is that we cannot play the "MAKE BRITANE GRATE" game without at the very least enabling the fash, even if we manage to completely avoid becoming them. Our equivalent has to be in creating, protecting, and extending the institutions that people love. Yeah, exactly. Patriotism, or whatever you want to call it, is not going away as a political force, no matter how much you might like it. The challenge for the left in the developed world is to find ways to harness it that are positive. In the US, Sanders has a good bit where he's framed wealthy people who offshore their funds to dodge taxes as unpatriotic. Emphasizing beloved institutions like the NHS as points of national pride is another example of harnessing it for beneficial ends. If you cede the flag as a symbol to the right, you're also ceding low-info voters to them.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:05
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thespaceinvader posted:THIS WAS LITERALLY LABOUR POLICY FOR gently caress'S SAKE. I'm not trying to be glib, I honestly could be misremembering this: But wasn't the Labour plan a new, legally binding referendum? Between the choices of no deal, a specific deal, and remain?
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Dec 13, 2019 23:06
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Guavanaut posted:I can never think of any that aren't woefully non-specific and cooked up by some centrist thunk-tank like "democracy" and "the rule of law" or bad things like "being racist and claiming you're not" and "fake individualism" or things that are actually English values like supporting England. I dunno, I kinda get what they're saying. There are some definitely some very British values that aren't often talked about, but are fairly obvious (especially if you've lived elsewhere). All of these stand in opposition to socialism, (or equality, or in some cases basic human decency): Sports-team-like obsession with the monarchy. You can still find people, including a lot of working class folks (though maybe the older ones) buying tat like commemorative china and compulsively reading trashy tabloids about what the royals are up to. Hell, if you broaden this to the aristocracy, there's a whole house of parliament full of hereditary lawmakers. Belief in the absoluteness of the class system. There are still working class people around who automatically address a member of the middle class as "guv". There are people who just accept that the class system is how things should be. Rule Britannia. Twice as many people are proud of British colonialism as those ashamed of it. Dave Cameron proudly refused to apologise for past massacres and horrors, and most folks were fine with that. Edit: I should add that I don't think the solution is to embrace these. Like, maybe actually teach people about just how objectively bad they are? Lead out in cuffs fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 23:06
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thespaceinvader posted:THIS WAS LITERALLY LABOUR POLICY FOR gently caress'S SAKE. No it wasn't! The policy was to have a second referendum after 6 months. I honestly didn't think leave voting seats would actually vote so hardly against Labour like the polls said, but I was wrong. Labour should have been telling those people that they would get out of the EU with a proper deal AND do their popular socialist domestic policies. That would have gotten the result much closer. goddamnedtwisto posted:I'm not entirely sure sacrificing the hundred-odd seats we'd have definitely lost in the cities by going full Leave to save the 60 we lost in the towns and villages is the move we should have gone for. Who would the remain voters have voted for then, Lib Dem? They should have done almost just as badly even if Labour went for leave. Much of the Tory and Brexit Part vote would have gone for Labour if Jeremy Corbyn pushed for Brexit, and that's the reality of it.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:07
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It's weird, I haven't cried since before the result but every time I try to articulate how I feel and what I positively believe in, I start. It's not the present I'm in that's upsetting as much as that I can taste the world I want, but for the arrangement of cells in a few million heads.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:07
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bionic vapour boy posted:I'm a few drinks in my friend, I can't tell if you're arguing with me or not.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:09
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Guavanaut posted:Not arguing, just saying gently caress anyone who tries to paint the queer scene as some kind of cosmopolitan bourgeois elite in contrast with the pure whitebread working man who dare not be the little spoon lest he become a heterosexual gay. Alright cool, sorry if I got a bit scrappy. And yes, absoLUTELY gently caress them
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Dec 13, 2019 23:10
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OwlFancier posted:It's weird, I haven't cried since before the result but every time I try to articulate how I feel and what I positively believe in, I start. It's not the present I'm in that's upsetting as much as that I can taste the world I want, but for the arrangement of cells in a few million heads.  We're all ultimately trying to find a way to reach people and build a better place. And it's when the way to do so appears to be so far away, especially after this result, that the frustration really gets painful. But everyone here is good people, and you folk are honestly a fantastic support network for each other. There will be other elections, until then do what you can with what you have. And stay hydrated.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:11
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Zakutambah posted:I'm not trying to be glib, I honestly could be misremembering this: It was between a future Labour deal or remain. A deal that had 0% chance to pass since it would never get the Conservative leave votes required to pass. It would in practice be sabotaging the results of the first referendum and piss off all Brexit voters that were required to win an election.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:11
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