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https://twitter.com/RuairiWood/status/1205611431632048128?s=20
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Dec 13, 2019 23:13
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Katt posted:It was between a future Labour deal or remain. A deal that had 0% chance to pass since it would never get the Conservative leave votes required to pass. It would in practice be sabotaging the results of the first referendum and piss off all Brexit voters that were required to win an election. Ah right. And listening to a lot of talking heads since, a lot of voters just are just sick of Brexit. So I think it translated to one party saying "vote for me, Brexit is done" and the other going "vote for me, more months of Brexit purgatory". Of course that's not true, but that seems to be one common thread continuing to come up. Again, the infuriating part is that Brexit is going to be a huge painful international mess no matter what. We can only hope now that some of the fallout from it sticks to the tories.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:16
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OwlFancier posted:It's weird, I haven't cried since before the result but every time I try to articulate how I feel and what I positively believe in, I start. It's not the present I'm in that's upsetting as much as that I can taste the world I want, but for the arrangement of cells in a few million heads. Pretty much. I had a bit of an argument with my wife as soon as I got home (specifically about the assertion that better PR for Labour could have changed the result, which is a loving fantasy) and we both cried for like ten minutes. I've felt utterly hopeless for months, but I've been desperately clinging to the possibility of change. That's gone. I genuinely don't know what to do any more. But I got up and went to work I guess. It helps that work is at least helping the world a bit. Zakutambah posted:I'm not trying to be glib, I honestly could be misremembering this: No, it was specific deal and remain only. Which is the only Labour brexit policy that could ever have realistically got into any Labour manifesto, people are loving dreaming if they think a policy of left-brexit would have got through Conference, let alone that any putative Corbyn government could have got said deal through Parliament.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:20
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OwlFancier posted:Corbyn's platform appealed to me because it addressed those things, it gave me greater security through society, it gave me a greater purpose to work towards, it gave me a community of others who believed too, that this was something to work towards, a prosperity for us all, through us all, to secure all our futures, to forge an unbroken chain into the future and the past. gently caress me Owl, that is so very much the stuff. You really write brilliantly sometimes, and thank you.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:21
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Labour's never gonna win the gammon back until they get more flags  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB5Nbp_gmgQ&t=102s
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Dec 13, 2019 23:22
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I mean, the bloke literally hid in a fridge to avoid a few simple morning show Qs and As. If that alone didn't get some folk in his camp starting to question what his grand Brexit plan might actually be, I'm coming up with little else that's going to immediately work.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:23
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I guess if you want a slogan "security through society" might work a bit too. It does encapsulate most of how I think. I can't have security alone, or isolated from others, we have to work together. Glad it resonates with people. If there's one thing I do know about socialism it's that I am loving drowning in the kool aid. Even if I am bad at theory. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 23:24
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I hear you OwlFancier, you’ve expressed my feelings on symbols and belonging better than I can. I hope one day the left can share these more beautiful symbols and aspects of belonging, and replace the unhealthy feudal shite we have to deal with. I’ve got this colleague. She’s so low info that she was planning on voting Tory cos apparently her ‘local Tory MP’ had done good things there since 2017. Her local MP was in fact Labour until today. Anyway, when I first asked what put her off about Labour she started doing the whole ‘he hates this country doesn’t he, doesn’t sing the anthem and won’t even bow to the queen’. I said it seemed a bit daft to judge a 70 year old politician on the depth of his bow rather than his plan to bring jobs, investment, relevance and properly funded schools and hospitals back to this area. She snapped at me that I ‘don’t understand how much this country matters to ordinary people’. Bit tough to take really. I’m a working man from a broken home on a bang average wage, and I’m not an ordinary person. On top of that, I thought that this country was about its people and their dreams, its infrastructure and land, its struggles and its role in the world, the example we set for good or ill. Turns out it’s all about a purse lipped old bag in a silly hat.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:25
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The queen doesn't sing to me, the queen doesn't bow to me, the queen doesn't even know I exist. I know the people around me exist, and they'd know if I stopped.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:27
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thespaceinvader posted:No, it was specific deal and remain only. Which is the only Labour brexit policy that could ever have realistically got into any Labour manifesto, people are loving dreaming if they think a policy of left-brexit would have got through Conference, let alone that any putative Corbyn government could have got said deal through Parliament. Right, but still another referendum. I'm saying the Tories twisted that into posing Labour will create more Brexit chaos, where as Tories will "get Brexit done". People are being wilfully ignorant in thinking that's going to be an easy break, and not years of chaos itself. I'm agreeing with you, pretty much. Labour had a plan, tories either didn't or just didn't talk about. Tory voters failed to press Boris for answers. I'm honestly not sure what to do about the people that blindly trusted him on that right now.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:28
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I made fun of that "Vote conservative and we can all move on" thing on the cover of The Sun, but it seems like they knew something we didn't.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:29
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Security through society is quite good. Three syllable words might be pushing it though.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:30
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Security through society sounds to me like something that only makes sense if you're already socialist.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:31
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The huge problem with Labour Lexit was that it would be hobbled by Northern Ireland. No way Corbyn would want to blow the GFA up.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:32
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I still think there's going to be quite the rude awakening once the realities of Brexit come crashing through the proverbial wall, but now I'm less certain most people will even care.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:33
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Hungry posted:I still think there's going to be quite the rude awakening once the realities of Brexit come crashing through the proverbial wall, but now I'm less certain most people will even care. If it continues to mirror Australia, they'll somehow blame it on the Greens.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:34
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Hungry posted:I still think there's going to be quite the rude awakening once the realities of Brexit come crashing through the proverbial wall, but now I'm less certain most people will even care. They won't be in a position to understand who is at fault. It will be blamed on the EU, on immigrants, on brown people, on Labour, on anyone but those who caused it. Just like always. And people will believe the lie because they don't want to face the uncomfortable truth that the hosed themselves in the ear with a pitchfork.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:35
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Awful CompSloth posted:Who would the remain voters have voted for then, Lib Dem? They should have done almost just as badly even if Labour went for leave. Much of the Tory and Brexit Part vote would have gone for Labour if Jeremy Corbyn pushed for Brexit, and that's the reality of it. The Lib Dems and Brexit Party would have just switched the amount of votes they'd nicked from us, and people just staying at home because at that point there's no actual plausible route to Remain would have finished the job.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:36
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Is there any way for the SNP to put pressure on the government with this large of a majority to accept a referendum?
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Dec 13, 2019 23:37
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No. The government does not run on kindness, it runs on power, and it has the power to do what it wants with or without their input.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:38
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Chuka Umana posted:Is there any way for the SNP to put pressure on the government with this large of a majority to accept a referendum? Other than a literal civil war, no.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:38
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Darth Walrus posted:The huge problem with Labour Lexit was that it would be hobbled by Northern Ireland. No way Corbyn would want to blow the GFA up. The main problem with Brexit is that Brexit is inherently a stupid bullshit idea for morons, which was never going to make sense or work no matter how you do it I guess the silver lining here is indeed that said stupid bullshit now belongs completely to the tories, they have more than enough rope to hang themselves with... but holy poo poo it's gonna be a long howevermany years
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Dec 13, 2019 23:38
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OwlFancier posted:No. The government does not run on kindness, it runs on power, and it has the power to do what it wants with or without their input. Equally, at this point, sadly, I feel like the SNP have a solid mandate to unilaterally withdraw from the union. It doesn't really matter at that point if Westminster lets them.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:39
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Darth Walrus posted:The huge problem with Labour Lexit was that it would be hobbled by Northern Ireland. No way Corbyn would want to blow the GFA up. A future relationship with freedom of movement (Norway+? I legit can't remember which dumb loving name they had for it) honours the GFA.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:39
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Chuka Umana posted:Is there any way for the SNP to put pressure on the government with this large of a majority to accept a referendum? Sadly, not really. The SNP could've won all 59 Scottish seats, and that still wouldn't tip the balance. They need to appeal to the tories sense of honour and respect for the publi....... gently caress.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:40
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Azza Bamboo posted:I unironically think "eat the rich" will be effective. Give it ten years for the climate crisis to kick in and believe you me, the zoomers will be all over that poo poo. Literally, they will eat them. For what it's worth I just want to put out there that although I could quite easily gently caress off to Germany or elsewhere, I have no current intention to leave the country permanently. I can certainly sympathise with those who are feeling attacked or especially the traveller lady up thread who could quite possibly die. But I feel it's worthwhile staying and fighting rather than retreating, especially given what the next 20 years are likely to be like globally. Besides all my poo poo is here, not to mention family in Leicester, Birmingham, Warrington, Sheffield, Essex... (god I'm not looking forward to the christmas roundtrip hell. Oh to be old and make people come to me.) That said though, given my privileged position of having skills useful to capitalism™ I am genuinely considering if I should move some assets out of the country. Without going all BFC up in here, does anyone keep euro denominated savings accounts or something? Euro/GBP has bounced back a fair bit since the Con win, but I don't trust it to stay high once tory brexit really kicks in.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:40
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goddamnedtwisto posted:A future relationship with freedom of movement (Norway+? I legit can't remember which dumb loving name they had for it) honours the GFA. Yeah, but that's a small enough Brexit that it doesn't have much in the way of Lexity selling points.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:41
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jaete posted:The main problem with Brexit is that Brexit is inherently a stupid bullshit idea for morons, which was never going to make sense or work no matter how you do it I legit don't think our democracy, such as it is, survives the next 5 years. The tories can cram through every bit of gerrymandering and disenfranchisement they want at the moment to make the next election irrelevant.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:43
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goddamnedtwisto posted:A future relationship with freedom of movement (Norway+? I legit can't remember which dumb loving name they had for it) honours the GFA. Yep it does, but then it's Brexit in name only, which is a stupid bullshit idea  It's interesting I think to try to ponder how one would do Brexit properly, as in, how to make it actually make sense. I mean, the EU is obviously not immutably awesome always, it's not obvious that every country would want to stay in forevermore, of course it should be possible to leave... but how would one construct an EU exit that doesn't gently caress everything up? I mean for starters you'd need a majority in parliament - and possibly a solid super-majority which is large enough to be immune to intra-party factionalism - for something which is also acceptable to the EU. Then, this something needs to not be stupid bullshit for morons like (imo) a BRINO would be, and like obviously Johnson's deal is. And while I'm dreaming why not throw world peace on there as well thanks for reading
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Dec 13, 2019 23:44
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jaete posted:The main problem with Brexit is that Brexit is inherently a stupid bullshit idea for morons, which was never going to make sense or work no matter how you do it Yes we're going to blow our own foot off. But we're going to do it safely, sensibly, and with everyone on board. Then we will run again faster than anyone ever has.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:44
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So I'm watching Newsnight and the disconnect in these first time Tory voters not realising that their crumbling services and towns are going to suffer more under a conservative government is just staggering... I'm not saying anything you guys don't already know but that's where this election was lost and it's painful to watch.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:47
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jaete posted:It's interesting I think to try to ponder how one would do Brexit properly, as in, how to make it actually make sense. There is no way for brexit to ever make sense. It has always been a con.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:47
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So I don't post much, been following, and I've spent the better part of the day trying to reason a response to this result. The figure don't show us at that much of a loss, at least in terms of pure numbers, governments have been formed with less votes than we got this election. The only thing that's true now that's always been true is that even a small swing in the vote share in across the right marginals is all you need to win an election. Most places I go the feeling isn't one of jubilation at this result, and whilst there is no doubt a large contingent of leave voters who might be somewhat energized by this election, I really don't believe this reflects the mood of the country given the actual voting numbers. As noted earlier today in the thread less than half the country voted for the actual tories, whilst a vote for some other parties might be seen for a vote for the tories by proxy by some in the thread in reality that doesn't reflect actual voting intention. Anyway. rather than naval gazing about how the left could have done better, I don't think it should be considered false commiserations when you consider everything that was thrown at us this election. The 'Media' coverage alone shows a gross imbalance and lack of impartiality across the whole campaign, and in no way subtle smear campaigns being ran verbatim across many outlets did have an impact. However we didn't lose that many votes overall, the tories pushed every advantage to win with a broken electoral system, and honestly, if this was the best they could manage I think everyone here deserves to give themselves a break, cause you all did a great job out there as far as I'm concerned. Yes this still a horrible result for those of us at risk and actively being targeted by antisocial tory policy. In the meantime, everyone who hasn't should look into trying to get people aware of how broken the electoral system is. I learned of this group after the result of last election, https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ Maybe someone in this thread can educate me on why this organization are more than likely corrupt given our political climate, but on the whole I think campaigning for more awareness of this issue is going to be critical going forward under a tory regime. We need to stay strong and united and make sure these bastards can't twist the broken system any more in their favor than it already is, whilst pushing for vital reforms that will give a voice to so many who felt like their vote was robbed by this election. Sorry if this comes across as preachy or as old ground well trodden, I'm just doing my best to stay positive here, and hopefully do something constructive, cause drat if this result doesn't suck on the surface, brexit locked us into corner and the tories took advantage. Also shout out to Praxiscast folks, you're good people thank you for your hard work during a grueling election night.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:48
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Celexi posted:Other than a literal civil war, no. Consider where Trident is located and I think they have a pretty good chance of winning one.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:48
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jaete posted:The main problem with Brexit is that Brexit is inherently a stupid bullshit idea for morons, which was never going to make sense or work no matter how you do it Brexit is a Left wing position https://youtu.be/nWnpbEMMsNw
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Dec 13, 2019 23:48
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Hi everyone, sending big love your way. In the wake of yesterday a number of us on Discord have been talking about setting up a UKMT Solidarity Fund to help support the more vulnerable members of our community. Obviously this comes with a lot of things that need to be worked out such as who's controlling it, how do we give out payments and how do we prevent it from being abused among other things. We think that these are questions that should be answered collectively and democratically so I'm giving advance notice of a meeting on Discord on Wednesday 18th December at 8pm so that we can work this out together. Please do drop by.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:49
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Elliptical Dick posted:So I'm watching Newsnight and the disconnect in these first time Tory voters not realising that their crumbling services and towns are going to suffer more under a conservative government is just staggering... I'm not saying anything you guys don't already know but that's where this election was lost and it's painful to watch. I have to try really hard not to wish upon them every catastrophe possible under a Tory NHS. Cause come the gently caress on... it takes some really creative willful ignorance to think a Tory government gives any gently caress about public services, and of the health of any of these towns. It's like hating animals that bark, then getting a dog and being surprised when it barks. That's what dogs do.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:51
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A few of these slogans are getting there, but remember they need to fit seamlessly into sentences/answers so you can throw them out constantly. Security through society is a bit mealy (as another poster pointed out) to just blurt out as many times as you possibly can. I think less metaphor and something more focused on trust or renewal would be beneficial to what I see as one of the major problems Labour has: it's not that socialism isn't popular, we know from polling that Labour's manifesto overwhelmingly is, the problem is the 'public' don't trust Labour to deliver it.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:51
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Rarity posted:Hi everyone, sending big love your way. In the wake of yesterday a number of us on Discord have been talking about setting up a UKMT Solidarity Fund to help support the more vulnerable members of our community. Obviously this comes with a lot of things that need to be worked out such as who's controlling it, how do we give out payments and how do we prevent it from being abused among other things. We think that these are questions that should be answered collectively and democratically so I'm giving advance notice of a meeting on Discord on Wednesday 18th December at 8pm so that we can work this out together. Please do drop by. You are good people and I still need to join the Discrod. If anything's giving me even a glimmer of hope it's that this is either the second or third local community (for a given value of local in this case) group I've seen forming to do this kind of thing today. LemonyTang posted:A few of these slogans are getting there, but remember they need to fit seamlessly into sentences/answers so you can throw them out constantly. Security through society is a bit mealy (as another poster pointed out) to just blurt out as many times as you possibly can. I think less metaphor and something more focused on trust or renewal would be beneficial to what I see as one of the major problems Labour has: it's not that socialism isn't popular, we know from polling that Labour's manifesto overwhelmingly is, the problem is the 'public' don't trust Labour to deliver it. It's difficult to believe that the public will ever trust anyone who is in a position to promise it, because the way they decide who to trust is so corrupted by capitalist interest. I suspect that at this point the only way forward is with force.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:51
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If there's a minor silver lining I guess at least I've apparently lost about 10 pounds in the last week or 2 so my liver is probably less likely to kill me.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:52
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