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In 1983, there was a general election, with the popular and media friendly incumbent going up against a seventy year old left wing scruff bag who'd been hanging around forever before he became leader and then wore a disrespectful coat to lay a wreath at the Cenotaph. The incumbent won a majority, and the tabloid shitheads laughed hard. In 1984, there were huge strikes and protests with the police deploying everything they had at the time to try and quash it. Meanwhile, a terrorist planted a bomb at the hotel where that year's Conservative Party conference was being held, and the police were so busy dealing with the strikers that they didn't think to look for the bomb until it killed and injured people. It's probably dumb, but I just thought of it earlier.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:52
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LemonyTang posted:and Starmer, as the lead remainer of Labour, will surely be too toxic for Leave voters - in the same way that remainers loved to go off on how Corbyn was a secret brexiteer. These would just be easily sticking narratives that would never piss off. Labour is never getting back those leave voters; there is nothing we can offer them that they want. Brexit has broken the cultural link between who they used to be, and who they objectively are. There is nothing so hard as making a man understand a fact if his pension depends on not understanding it. Until someone invents a cure for aging and they rejoin the workforce, they are capitalists. They share class interests with the rich; wage rises and nationalised industries are equally bad for them. The only difference is that for the rich, the sums involved might occasionally be over-ridden by compassion or ideology; subsistence capitalists lack that luxury. Now, if Brexit turns out to be a fantastic plan that unambiguously kicks off a new era of national prosperity, then it will turn out to have been bad politics to have opposed it. Thinking that _will be_ the case is the same as thinking it _is_ a good idea
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Dec 13, 2019 23:54
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Rarity posted:Hi everyone, sending big love your way. In the wake of yesterday a number of us on Discord have been talking about setting up a UKMT Solidarity Fund to help support the more vulnerable members of our community. Obviously this comes with a lot of things that need to be worked out such as who's controlling it, how do we give out payments and how do we prevent it from being abused among other things. We think that these are questions that should be answered collectively and democratically so I'm giving advance notice of a meeting on Discord on Wednesday 18th December at 8pm so that we can work this out together. Please do drop by. This is what I meant earlier, you all are an amazing support network for each other. It makes all the difference knowing there's some love out there when the low moods really hit.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:55
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Chuka Umana posted:Is there any way for the SNP to put pressure on the government with this large of a majority to accept a referendum? It should do a vote, branding it as a referendum even though it has no legal binding. Let's say independence wins with an overwhelming majority. Boris will probably be cruel and say this is all a farce, and refuse. From there all your options are nasty, but gently caress this fascist union, get yourself free: See if you can make this a diplomatic issue, and have other nations throwing their weight. Given that Scotland has a lot to offer Europe, particularly with its euratom infrastructure, there may well be friends nearby. If so, the post Brexit UK will be in no position to do a trade war, and such diplomatic fuckery will expose the Tories' brexit for the national vulnerability that it is. Alternatively, how does the local police stand on Scottish Nationalism? What about UK military installations? If they're mainly independence, maybe you could just start being your own nation by cutting Scotland straight off.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:55
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Azza Bamboo posted:It should do a vote, branding it as a referendum even though it has no legal binding. Referenda don't have legal weight anyway, it would just be a normal referendum. I'm pretty sure the Scottish parliament could hive off the what... few million quid it would cost to do the logistics for it.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:58
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Jollity Farm posted:In 1983, there was a general election, with the popular and media friendly incumbent going up against a seventy year old left wing scruff bag who'd been hanging around forever before he became leader and then wore a disrespectful coat to lay a wreath at the Cenotaph. The incumbent won a majority, and the tabloid shitheads laughed hard. In 1984, there were huge strikes and protests with the police deploying everything they had at the time to try and quash it. Meanwhile, a terrorist planted a bomb at the hotel where that year's Conservative Party conference was being held, and the police were so busy dealing with the strikers that they didn't think to look for the bomb until it killed and injured people. Up the ra tbh
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Dec 13, 2019 23:58
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I swore off the piss during the week as part of getting healthier, and yesterday I was seriously starting to eye the vinegar for shots. And now the NHS won't exist to provide me the robot liver I'm definitely going to need in the next few years.
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Dec 13, 2019 23:59
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Zakutambah posted:I swore off the piss during the week as part of getting healthier, and yesterday I was seriously starting to eye the vinegar for shots. I don't drink. My mind keeps drifting to the bottle of some horrible poo poo some friends of ours bought us once that's like 40% alcohol at the moment. It's in one of the kitchen cupboards. Seems like a bad shout though.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:00
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I wish drinking didn't just make everything immesurably worse for me.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:02
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Jollity Farm posted:In 1983, there was a general election, with the popular and media friendly incumbent going up against a seventy year old left wing scruff bag who'd been hanging around forever before he became leader and then wore a disrespectful coat to lay a wreath at the Cenotaph. The incumbent won a majority, and the tabloid shitheads laughed hard. In 1984, there were huge strikes and protests with the police deploying everything they had at the time to try and quash it. Meanwhile, a terrorist planted a bomb at the hotel where that year's Conservative Party conference was being held, and the police were so busy dealing with the strikers that they didn't think to look for the bomb until it killed and injured people. I doubt we'll have a re-run of the IRA part - at least, not that quickly - but I'd put a few bob on riots/unrest in the next couple of years, once the economic impact bites down.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:04
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Probably best just to keep that stuff for when the Mad Max era really hits; might be good to run an engine on for a bit
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Dec 14, 2019 00:05
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thespaceinvader posted:I don't drink. My mind keeps drifting to the bottle of some horrible poo poo some friends of ours bought us once that's like 40% alcohol at the moment. It's in one of the kitchen cupboards. I feel that if I did drink, I would end up becoming an alcoholic, but people just say "you can't possibly know that".
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Dec 14, 2019 00:05
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Hungry posted:I doubt we'll have a re-run of the IRA part - at least, not that quickly - but I'd put a few bob on riots/unrest in the next couple of years, once the economic impact bites down. Given that people are literally marching in Glasgow right now, I'd be surprised if it takes that long. I genuinely don't understand what people think marching will do. I've been to several protest marches and they've all been polite and careful and made everyone present feel better about themselves but. loving MILLIONS of people marched on Parliament, what... 6 times last year? And it didn't make a single loving jot of difference. All the marches in the world won't make a difference when the people in charge simply don't care that people are angry as long as they're polite about it. Jollity Farm posted:I feel that if I did drink, I would end up becoming an alcoholic, but people just say "you can't possibly know that". This is part of the reason I don't. But honestly, I think a LOT more people are alcoholics than actually realise it. I've lost count of how many times I've been horrified by people who are simply unable to enjoy social functions without an alcholoic drink.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:06
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I can't say I'm feeling depressed at all today. I'm just kind of numb to these shocks after a decade of them. I think Labour should've just accepted Brexit and ran on "Getting Brexit done" and negotiate a progressive deal that preserves free movement. Now because of the hard core remainers we got a hard brexit.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:07
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Again labour's membership is mostly remain, there's no credible way we could have done that as a democratic party.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:08
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If Labour is going to elect a Remain leader and run on remain/re-entry next election they are absolutely going to lose.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:10
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https://twitter.com/Hezbolsonaro/st...ingawful.com%2F
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Dec 14, 2019 00:10
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The dumb part is, if they'd have tried to do it the way the Tories did (say GET BREXIT DONE and give no details, with the plan being the referendum), then they'd have been given a bollicking on all fronts for the lack of details. Double standard by the press? Say it ain't so.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:11
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Chuka Umana posted:If Labour is going to elect a Remain leader and run on remain/re-entry next election they are absolutely going to lose. 
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Dec 14, 2019 00:12
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Chuka Umana posted:I can't say I'm feeling depressed at all today. I'm just kind of numb to these shocks after a decade of them. it's difficult to see a brexit plan that would have gone down well for labour. going for 'get brexit done' would have caused a massive schism in the party but in theory it might have changed the debate from 'brexit vs corbyn' to 'policy vs policy'. whether or not that would have been sufficient to secure a working labour government is counterfactual speculation
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Dec 14, 2019 00:13
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bionic vapour boy posted:I'm a few drinks in my friend, I can't tell if you're arguing with me or not. thespaceinvader posted:It's easier to believe the lie than confront the uncomfortable truth, especially when part of the uncomfortable truth is that it's your fault you believed the lie and it hurt you all your life. Corbyn's honest about the truth. The traditional British values, both the ones Lead out in cuffs listed and the more common Christian and feudal ones are... sometimes just utter poo poo and frequently used to justify worse poo poo. But people have an emotional reaction to those values being questioned. It needs to be done carefully and with skill or otherwise you're alienating enough people to change the outcome of an election. No, it isn't fair.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:13
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oxford_town posted:it's difficult to see a brexit plan that would have gone down well for labour. going for 'get brexit done' would have caused a massive schism in the party but in theory it might have changed the debate from 'brexit vs corbyn' to 'policy vs policy'. whether or not that would have been sufficient to secure a working labour government is counterfactual speculation It wouldn't have. The Lib Dems would have rased merry hell about it, and the Tories would have just pivoted to something more racist. Nothing would have got the national conversation to discuss policy, because the con artists don't have any loving policy to discuss.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:14
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Is this Katie Hopkins a Sacha Baron Cohen persona?
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Dec 14, 2019 00:16
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Zakutambah posted:Is this Katie Hopkins a Sacha Baron Cohen persona? I don't think Sacha Baron Cohen would have actually written something that lovely, just like the Thick of It writers could never have predicted this nonsense.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:18
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I did wonder after the whole fridge thing if I'd somehow slipped into The Thick Of It without realizing.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:19
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Under reported but important little factoid about this election: Narendra Modi's BJP was actively campaigning for Conservatives in Hindu communities in the UK because Johnson didn't condemn the invasion of Kashmir and Corbyn did.oxford_town posted:it's difficult to see a brexit plan that would have gone down well for labour. going for 'get brexit done' would have caused a massive schism in the party but in theory it might have changed the debate from 'brexit vs corbyn' to 'policy vs policy'. whether or not that would have been sufficient to secure a working labour government is counterfactual speculation Remainers need to realize that Brexit is happening full stop because leave voters have all of the political power. Chuka Umana fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Dec 14, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2019 00:19
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thespaceinvader posted:It wouldn't have. The Lib Dems would have rased merry hell about it, and the Tories would have just pivoted to something more racist. the lib dems raised hell about brexit in this election, to the point of presenting themselves as a plausible majority governing party at the beginning of their campaign, hoping to get the centre/centre-left of europhiles who were looking for an excuse to ditch corbyn (who was probably a lexit euroskeptic at heart). whilst they definitely split the vote in some seats, they underperformed hugely and it seems that a lab > lib swing was far less significant overall than lab >con (or lab>not voting depending on the interpretation) in a scenario where labour went 'get brexit done' a labour victory would depend on that group similarly choosing labour over the lib dems, as I think happened here when labour seemed to be recouping votes from the lib dems late on. might, or might not have happened - it's speculative
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Dec 14, 2019 00:21
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oxford_town posted:the lib dems raised hell about brexit in this election, to the point of presenting themselves as a plausible majority governing party at the beginning of their campaign, hoping to get the centre/centre-left of europhiles who were looking for an excuse to ditch corbyn (who was probably a lexit euroskeptic at heart). Whether or not it might have changed the outcome, the point was that it might have changed the discussion to one about policy. It simply wouldn't have, because the policy discussion is one the tories lose, and the people who set the terms of the conversation don't want the tories to lose, so they would have found something else to be the hot button issue. Or they would have just ignored what Labour was doing, and lied about it. Like they have been doing for ten loving years.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:23
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thespaceinvader posted:Given that people are literally marching in Glasgow right now, I'd be surprised if it takes that long. Marching doesn't make any real difference but it can be useful for that sense of solidarity, of seeing a big crowd of others like you. There's value in that, especially like a time like now. thespaceinvader posted:This is part of the reason I don't. I dunno, I can't really enjoy social functions without a drink but that's more a side effect of social anxiety than alcoholism. But I did accept a couple of years ago that I had a problem with binge drinking and have basically cut down to no more than 2 or 3 units in a night because it was just not going well. I'd do incredibly stupid stuff. For example I haven't self-harmed once since I stopped drinking to excess. You think a hangover is bad, have a hangover while having freshly made scars rubbing on the inside of your sleeves. But the reason I don't think it was alcoholism is that I never really did it all that often, and cutting it out completely has not been hard. It was a product of sadbrains chasing the high I sometimes get when heavily inebriated and to be honest I just haven't felt the need for the high since I got on a decent dose of Sertraline. I used to think I'd maybe have to cut out alcohol from my life entirely but fortunately that hasn't been the case & I can still enjoy a dram. Rarity posted:Hi everyone, sending big love your way. In the wake of yesterday a number of us on Discord have been talking about setting up a UKMT Solidarity Fund to help support the more vulnerable members of our community. Obviously this comes with a lot of things that need to be worked out such as who's controlling it, how do we give out payments and how do we prevent it from being abused among other things. We think that these are questions that should be answered collectively and democratically so I'm giving advance notice of a meeting on Discord on Wednesday 18th December at 8pm so that we can work this out together. Please do drop by. This is a beautiful thing. Really is a great idea.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:24
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Chuka Umana posted:Under reported but important little factoid about this election: Narendra Modi's BNP was actively campaigning for Conservatives in Hindu communities in the UK because Johnson didn't condemn the invasion of Kashmir and Corbyn did. "BJP" but perhaps a freudian slip there. allegedly there was lots of "UK Friends of BJP" sponsored stuff that was being widely but quietly spread in whatsapp groups amongst first-gen Hindu Indian immigrants. oddly this included repurposed alt-right/far-right talking points like "labour support muslim child grooming gangs" - the Islamophobic narratives were powerful.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:25
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Yes I meant BJP but I mean there's not much difference lol
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Dec 14, 2019 00:28
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Azza Bamboo posted:Security through society sounds to me like something that only makes sense if you're already socialist.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:31
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Chuka Umana posted:If Labour is going to elect a Remain leader and run on remain/re-entry next election they are absolutely going to lose. But it they cede rejoin to the Lib Dems they'll get squeezed hard on that too and gently caress off a lot of the activist base. I think the only way is to try and make the Tories 100% own all of the hardship that will come from brexit and just react to events until enough olds have died that the culture has shifted. Going full Remainer is clearly a lovely idea though you're right.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:36
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Rejoin is a horrible policy and will consume the debate for every election to come. Lib Dems can run on that fringe belief. Labour can run on a progressive Brexit which means allowing free movement.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:40
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Brexit is happening, it will be done* by the time we get another election. Leave talk of the EU to the lib dems, for serious parties the issue is settled. *or still being done, whatever
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Dec 14, 2019 00:40
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If anyone looks at the mess that was the position labour was put in re: brexit and wants to relitigate that next election they need to be taken out back and shot.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:42
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OwlFancier posted:If anyone looks at the mess that was the position labour was put in re: brexit and wants to relitigate that next election they need to be taken out back and shot. I'm pretty sure the Tories will want to relitigate it next election given they won't be loving finished with it. Which I admit, isn't actually an argument against this statement.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:43
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oxford_town posted:"BJP" but perhaps a freudian slip there. https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1205510186988904452
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Dec 14, 2019 00:44
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Angry Lobster posted:I'm curious, how would you gain the Scots back? I haven’t the faintest idea.
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Dec 14, 2019 00:44
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thespaceinvader posted:I'm pretty sure the Tories will want to relitigate it next election given they won't be loving finished with it. I've been assured that Boris is going to get Brexit done though?
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Dec 14, 2019 00:44
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