|
OwlFancier posted:Again labour's membership is mostly remain, there's no credible way we could have done that as a democratic party. Yeah, Labour were kind of hosed by Brexit. End of the day, it absolutely is undemocratic to vote for a referendum and then try and overturn the result because you didn't like it. But at the same time the Labour membership and the PLP would never have accepted a Brexit platform. Wrong place, wrong time. Personally I think we need a new leader with as little baggage as possible, preferably one who didn't come out strongly for Remain, and who has some degree of socialist principles. I'm still liking Angela Rayner. She's not from London, she's young, and it would be pretty on-brand for Labour for once to have a leader who grew up with precious few advantages.
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 22:41 |
|
|
The second referendum poo poo was dumb as hell and I'm not just saying in hindsight either. What would be different about a second go? It was plainly antidemocratic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:49
|
|
|
Apparently every MP who defected from Labour lost. This brings joy to my bitter, twisted heart.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:50
|
|
|
The point was to try to address the issue of perceived legitimacy that a labour government would have either forcing through brexit or revoking article 50. A referendum was the only credible way to resolve that. The tories may or may not have the same problem of legitimacy but it doesn't matter as much for them either way. The press won't really attack them on it. Labour would have been murdered from either direction as soon as it got in government without the referendum.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:50
|
|
|
jabby posted:Yeah, Labour were kind of hosed by Brexit. Conversely, it's not remotely undemocratic to invalidate the result because it was based on a foundation of lies and bullshit. But, you know that would take some actual courage. jabby posted:who has some degree of socialist principles. Sorry to tell you but socialist principles are exactly the kind of baggage that will see any putative labour leader treated exactly the same way Corbyn was, regardless of their background. That doesn't mean it's not a thing we should be pursuing, but... it's something we need to understand. With the press in the state it is, and the money concentrated where it is, anyone who is proposing any kind of policy that will change that, is going to be buried up to their neck in poo poo within days of being elected leader.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:50
|
|
|
Rarity posted:Hi everyone, sending big love your way. In the wake of yesterday a number of us on Discord have been talking about setting up a UKMT Solidarity Fund to help support the more vulnerable members of our community. Obviously this comes with a lot of things that need to be worked out such as who's controlling it, how do we give out payments and how do we prevent it from being abused among other things. We think that these are questions that should be answered collectively and democratically so I'm giving advance notice of a meeting on Discord on Wednesday 18th December at 8pm so that we can work this out together. Please do drop by. Just want to say this is both a really good idea and just tragic because we should not be having to do this. I’m in. On that note I was thinking earlier today - why not just go full Left Fox News. What is stopping us from essentially crowd sourcing papers, TV, media that’s full throated left. Crowd sourced it’d essentially be unlimited money if enough got on board. The guardian beg for a few quid a month but they’re really ‘just’ a paper, and while it’s the best - honestly - it’s 90% hand wringing
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:51
|
|
|
George Monbiot going pretty hard on the "socialism outside of the current power structures" thing. It's good poo poo: https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1205378073463578624?s=20 https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1205380829624619009?s=20
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:51
|
|
|
Aidan_702 posted:Just want to say this is both a really good idea and just tragic because we should not be having to do this. I’m in. I mean,t his is essentially what lefttube is already. Getting any kind of meaningful reach needs way more money than you can crowdsource from people who are struggling to make ends meet as it is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:53
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Conversely, it's not remotely undemocratic to invalidate the result because it was based on a foundation of lies and bullshit. Yea cuz there totally wont be any lies and bullshit a second time around.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:53
|
|
|
Because people consume media because it's already available, and that creates an audience, which funds the media. People don't say "well I'll fund this thing so it can tell me things I want to hear" en-masse, not without the thing already being there first. The closest thing the left has to that is podcasts and youtube, and that doesn't compete with the amount of money the right can throw at it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:53
|
|
|
What kind of lies and bullshit was used in 2016 that couldn't be used in 2019? If you think a second referendum would cause the referendum to be a more honest or positive debate I don't know what kind of drugs you're on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:54
|
|
|
Chuka Umana posted:Yea cuz there totally wont be any lies and bullshit a second time around. Referenda will continue until behaviour improves.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:55
|
|
|
Crowd fund buying the Express or something. That's about your best chance of changing the media.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:56
|
|
|
The whole point of the labour approach was to negotiate a concrete deal and then put it to the vote, so the brexit side couldn't make up a load of poo poo because the deal was already known. Which the remainers would struggle to argue against.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:56
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:I mean,t his is essentially what lefttube is already. Getting any kind of meaningful reach needs way more money than you can crowdsource from people who are struggling to make ends meet as it is. Ah gently caress yes I forgot the left are mostly loving poor. Like, that’s not a joke, I honestly didn’t think they really wouldn’t have the money to spare. Full disclosure I have a well paid university job because I’m 1) white 2) had the opportunity to get okay with excel, and it’s a bit embarrassing. gently caress a not only two years ago I had to cancel my £5 labour direct debit because I just wouldn’t have money in my account at the time to fulfil it. There are wealthy labour supporters out there. They need to be mobilised. Are there any like...good billionaire CEOs out there to help?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 00:59
|
|
|
Aidan_702 posted:good billionaire CEOs haha no there isn't
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:01
|
|
|
Aidan_702 posted:.good billionaire This is literally a contradiction in terms. Good people don't become billionaires, because it's impossible to become a billionaire without exploiting people on a scale no good person would ever consider.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:02
|
|
|
WhatEvil posted:George Monbiot going pretty hard on the "socialism outside of the current power structures" thing. It's good poo poo: George Monbiot can go gently caress himself. He was entirely complicit in the Guardian's relentless anti-Corbyn narrative, and is a reason we're in this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:02
|
|
|
Just having referendums until people vote the right way is kind of making GBS threads on Democracy as a whole and it upsets people on all sides of the political spectrum. Maybe they should have just gone with a Labour deal Brexit policy and then done the softest possible Brexit that in practice was EU membership for all the otherwise xenophobic stuff.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:02
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:George Monbiot can go gently caress himself. He was entirely complicit in the Guardian's relentless anti-Corbyn narrative, and is a reason we're in this poo poo. He's really not. I can't remember what he was like 3 years ago, but at worst he's had a Damascene conversion and it's not really worth being mad at him.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:10
|
|
|
I never got the impression it was holding referendums until they got a "good" result; especially since the pledge was to have this one be legally binding. The first referendum was a complete mess because it gave no details on what "Brexit" even meant. Putting a solid plan to the people seemed as good of a democratic compromise you could do in the current climate.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:10
|
|
|
Day one of a Tory majority: https://twitter.com/EmergMedDr/status/1205485397985378310
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:11
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:Day one of a Tory majority: Do you not have to pay anything for the NHS? In Australia you pay a little out of pocket and an annual means tested sum for Medicare.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:13
|
|
|
Yes Australia likes to torture people that need public assistance
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:14
|
|
|
Lid posted:You have FPTP. That always benefits populists. Australia has preferential voting and we're still hosed by populists. Absolute control of the media by a multinational conglomerate that picks sides is whats loving it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:15
|
|
|
The NHS at present is free at the point of use for UK citizens. You only pay for prescriptions.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:16
|
|
|
Chances of the Lib Dems/Greens just calling it a day? I really don't understand why these parties exist other than to sap votes from Labour. I'm even borderline paranoid that the Lib Dems are funded purely to spoil Labour.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:18
|
|
|
Celexi posted:Yes Australia likes to torture people that need public assistance You get it free if you're low income. I asked an honest question expecting an honest answer. My father was in hospital after his second near fatal brain injury for 7 months and I paid $76 total.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:18
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:The NHS at present is free at the point of use for UK citizens. You only pay for prescriptions. Actually residents rather than citizens, even.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
Oh hey what happened to this lady? https://www.twitter.com/AGildedEye/status/1205181914988056576 (Spoiler alert she was elected as the MP for Hastings and Rye)
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
also you pay a fixed amount, it's not the cost of the medication. and for like a hundred quid a year you can get as much as you need.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
JBP posted:Do you not have to pay anything for the NHS? In Australia you pay a little out of pocket and an annual means tested sum for Medicare. We pay a fuckton of tax that covers it, and then in England at least we have a flat fee for any prescribed medication.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
Negative Entropy posted:Australia has preferential voting and we're still hosed by populists. Absolute control of the media by a multinational conglomerate that picks sides is whats loving it. Yes, you should have representative voting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
Doccykins posted:Oh hey what happened to this lady? The guy who wants forced-labour camps for nuisance tenants and undesirables was elected too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
JBP posted:You get it free if you're low income. I asked an honest question expecting an honest answer. I know someone in Australia that is on disability and the outrageous things they ask for them to do, or when they ask for money back they overpaid is something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
Aidan_702 posted:On that note I was thinking earlier today - why not just go full Left Fox News. What is stopping us from essentially crowd sourcing papers, TV, media that’s full throated left. Crowd sourced it’d essentially be unlimited money if enough got on board. The guardian beg for a few quid a month but they’re really ‘just’ a paper, and while it’s the best - honestly - it’s 90% hand wringing So this is a dumb metaphor but I think I'm onto something with the basic point; the right does machine guns, the left does sniper rifles. Look at Youtube, the right just postpostpost all the loving time, like if there's any event to react to they all react to it and make the same loving video as each other but it gets them the content for a few days and actually that repetition reinforces the point to any shared fanbase. While the left at least try to do these deep-dive videos where they properly examine a particular idea, and those videos are often really good, but they obviously are way less frequent. And it's the same in the print media, the right just day after day sprays out their vitriol while the left occasionally investigates like a Panama Papers or an NHS Crisis expose or something, the left wing stuff is objectively way better and more meaningful but the dull-brained chinese water torture the right does is probably more effective. We obviously need our sniper rifles, we need people putting in work to target something important really well but I think we need to focus more on the daily low-quality machine gun fire stuff too. I don't have any idea how, we don't have the money to just hire people to do it like the right does, but it's something we've got to look at and it can't be something overt like The Canary or Breadtube where it's just narrowcasting to the base. We need something entertaining or useful enough that people will consume it anyway but that shoves the ongoing political message in.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:Day one of a Tory majority: What does that dildo think national insurance is for?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:What does that dildo think national insurance is for? well in the US "insurance" means you get ripped off whenever you need healthcare, the insurance is that you will keep giving the insurer money.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:25
|
|
|
Apraxin posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50474572 Fun story, so was the antisemitic SNP candidate in Fife. Well, he was kicked out of the Nats but too late to take him off the ballot.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 22:41 |
|
|
forkboy84 posted:He's really not. I can't remember what he was like 3 years ago, but at worst he's had a Damascene conversion and it's not really worth being mad at him. So he didn't call the left of the Labour party ‘a malign intellectual subculture’ of ‘apologists and genocide deniers’ ?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 01:26
|
|