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Endjinneer posted:Having to explain it makes it not so great a slogan though. "get brexit done", "take back control" and "make america great again" didn't need explaining. They all evoked a feeling of righting a great wrong done to the electorate by a nefarious and undefined other. I honestly think we should have stole "take back control" and used it to push for nationalised industries. With lads I've spoke to who worked at the steelworks in teesside when it was British Steel through to its closure as a private entity, this line really struck a cord.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:15
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Looking closer at the map, it seems like strong community engagement is the big winner. It's how Salford and Preston stayed comfortably red despite being northern Leave seats.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:17
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To me that's the essential message of socialism, control of our own lives, not at the whims of private enterprise or global markets or some rear end in a top hat in a suit in westminster. Which is why the swing to the center or trying to ape nationalism can't solve anything even if it won. It's what blair didn't do and why our lives kept getting worse.Darth Walrus posted:Looking closer at the map, it seems like strong community engagement is the big winner. It's how Salford and Preston stayed comfortably red despite being northern Leave seats. Well yeah, if people have no community they substitute it with media consumption. Community is where humans live, capitalism turns us into consumers.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:18
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I have realised that I have no genuine understanding of how to be uncomfortable with myself and a lot of that is due to constantly seeking validation on the internet.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:21
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OwlFancier posted:To me that's the essential message of socialism, control of our own lives, not at the whims of private enterprise or global markets or some rear end in a top hat in a suit in westminster. Which is why the swing to the center or trying to ape nationalism can't solve anything even if it won. The problem is that you can also spin the "control" aspect of socialism to mean that the state is in control of you. "State owned everything is taking away control by not giving you choices (of which uncaring private industry entity is going to gently caress you over for your money)!!" You can't really use it without it being thrown back in your face like that.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:22
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goddamnedtwisto posted:No, you're absolutely right, the mistake was putting the f-word in there. "Free" is a word that people are allergic to when it comes to (new) government programmes and gives an easy attack line for the other side. It also made people nervous to hear about government-provided internet Good ideas. I'd add though that we might not even have to put subsidy into the manifesto. Just do it anyway by some means that doesn't obviously contradict any promises. You could make it a benefit that is not obviously related to the broadband policy. "Utility cover" or something, to pay for privatised utilities. While those still exist, anyway 
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Dec 14, 2019 16:22
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Comrade Fakename posted:You can shut your loving face, oval office. Our ground game was excellent, a level of magnitude better organised and better participated-in than last time. Very clearly there are limits to what even the best ground game can do. Very clearly there are limits because bojo kicked your rear end, guvna
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Dec 14, 2019 16:23
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History Comes Inside! posted:The problem is that you can also spin the "control" aspect of socialism to mean that the state is in control of you. That depends whether you view socialism as the government owns everything or workers own everything. You can argue from the bottom up, because I agree that putting the government in charge of things doesn't necessarily help the people working there, even if the service it provides can help others more easily than a profit driven one. Josef bugman posted:I have realised that I have no genuine understanding of how to be uncomfortable with myself and a lot of that is due to constantly seeking validation on the internet. I don't know that anyone really knows how to be uncomfortable with themselves because if they did they wouldn't feel uncomfortable about it, discomfort is by definition not having a good coping strategy.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:25
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If inverted snobbery and working class pride is irreconcilable with the socialist assertion that working class people are victims, then spite against fat cats could be an angle. We didn't make enough hay in 2008. We could have had bankers' heads on stakes and instead the lasting narrative is that Labour did it. There's going to be plenty of "creative destruction" in the next five years and it'll be the conservatives' instinct to defend the owners, whether it's a bank collapsing or a steelworks closing. Boris Johnson said that the royal family was "beyond reproach" when the Prince Andrew thing was at its peak, so there's no privileged person too monstrous for them to support.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:27
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Josef bugman posted:I have realised that I have no genuine understanding of how to be uncomfortable with myself and a lot of that is due to constantly seeking validation on the internet. You don't seek it, we give it freely because we can see that you're undervaluing yourself. I've never seen you ask for validation, only worry that you're not good enough. I say what I say because it's what I believe, and I want you to hear it. Braggart fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Dec 14, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2019 16:29
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ronya posted:Corbynism was supposed to be the tactic that worked where angry Mélenchonism did not Well you're certainly disproving "you can shut your face" by pumping out wholly empty drivel like it's going out of style. The question isn't "what works", because the answer to that seems to be "racism". The question is how Labour can improve the situation. And the fact that Corbyn lost doesn't mean anyone else in his position could have won. You have to come up with an idea that both improves the conditions of the badly-off and wins elections. And judging from your posting history you don't ever have any ideas.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:29
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Also seeking validtion from others is how people work? It's what communities are for.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:30
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OwlFancier posted:Also seeking validtion from others is how people work? It's what communities are for. Yes. Wanting validation is normal and human. Seeking it is not unhealthy, until you get to the point of surrounding yourself with sycophants. But that's a rich people/celebrities thing. It's too expensive for us  I have a friend who worries that they are being selfish sometimes. They are incredibly kind and thoughtful, and in my opinion it's a ridiculous idea that they are selfish. No one believes that but them, and they believe it because they have a big self esteem problem. I've told them what I think, and that they have a long way to go before they need to worry about going too far towards selfishness, and I'll keep them in check anyway if it ever happens. But that's what depression will do to you. Tell your loved ones that you admire them and respect them, because why else would you love them? It gets through over time.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:37
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Lol at the centrists blaming the Tory win on leftists being mean https://twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1205839531372634112 https://twitter.com/baddiel/status/1205842250078605314
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Dec 14, 2019 16:38
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The left are not good at selling the left to those that are not the left. That's a pretty big thing we need to solve, at any level. As a relatively recent recruit of the socialist left it seems our main source of new recruits is the already curious due to compassionate awareness and those that naturally find a home here because life and capital has hosed them over to fend for themselves (homeless, minorities, trans etc) The problem with having a lot of angry people is it's easy to be unwelcoming to the other type of recruit who don't come along already prepared with all the correct words and list of problematic people we shouldn't like or listen to, etc. This is what the right like to shine a big spotlight on and "loony left" us to death with. I don't know how to solve this or even if it should be solved, just my 2 penneth as someone that was recently radicalised and how I ended up here.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:40
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Jose posted:Requires turfing out poo poo labour councillors though A good idea anyway. We may not control the country, but we do control the party. This may be the time to focus inwards and make the party better and stronger and more forward-looking. Local government is a cesspool, and that should be changed. I don't know how to do that, because it's outside of my expertise, but I'd be interested in hearing ideas from people ITT.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:42
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Some of the canvassers I spoke with were trying to do just that, but it's hard because the arcane labyrinth of local government is still, seemingly, a breeding ground for self obsessed chancers and blairites, who retain control because they sit on all the committees and bring in as many of their mates as needed to win votes.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:44
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LOONY LEFT PURGES HARD WORKING LOCAL COUNCILLORS
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Dec 14, 2019 16:46
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sebzilla posted:Security can be used in terms of physical security but also economic security, security of resources/food/health etc. Hopefully plays well with the law and order, spend more on police crowd. That's a reason to avoid it, because it means you're reinforcing their lawnorder beliefs. It also means your own less-sound politicians can pivot to lawnorder crap more easily once they get in. I think slogans need to suggest how you are different from the enemy, or there is no point in them. 'Make them share', 'tax the rich', 'the one percent' - those are all good.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:46
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Good things usually need a couple paragraphs to back them up at a minimum. Its the fash who can shout nonsense with no foundation because they don't care about honesty or honour. The issue is the old guard can't communicate it. They're old men trying to make boomers grow a conscience and trying to make x-ers give a gently caress and it just won't work because the former will be dead by the time anything affects them and the latter got their minds poisoned by the blair-murdoch gangbang machine before they had the internet. You need angry, aggressive, fire-and-brimstone types, not jam granddads.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:46
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Bundy posted:The left are not good at selling the left to those that are not the left. That's a pretty big thing we need to solve, at any level. I think we mostly have a good approach in this thread and act to police unwarranted hostility. People who are not obviously posting in bad faith get lots of good-faith answers. Even probable bad-faith posters get the benefit of the doubt from some. But if honey doesn't work and they get lovely, out comes the vinegar. Sometimes a person was just stirring poo poo and needs to be told so, but by that point we've had a lot of good posts for the audience to read. We're not perfect, but I think as a group we generally handle this well. And as I said, if someone's being unfair we tend to point that out 
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Dec 14, 2019 16:48
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OwlFancier posted:Some of the canvassers I spoke with were trying to do just that, but it's hard because the arcane labyrinth of local government is still, seemingly, a breeding ground for self obsessed chancers and blairites, who retain control because they sit on all the committees and bring in as many of their mates as needed to win votes. yeah its not easy but momentum should absolutely focus on trying to get as many new councillors as possible everywhere
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Dec 14, 2019 16:50
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Saith posted:Good things usually need a couple paragraphs to back them up at a minimum. Its the fash who can shout nonsense with no foundation because they don't care about honesty or honour. You need neither if they can't get their message through a rigged media. What you need are material, tangible achievements that you can point to. The rich will always be louder, but you can be closer.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:50
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We need all of it.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:51
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Jose posted:yeah its not easy but momentum should absolutely focus on trying to get as many new councillors as possible everywhere This seems like a good idea. It's what Momentum are good at anyway.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:52
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sleep with the vicious posted:Very clearly there are limits because bojo kicked your rear end, guvna Wow, a “u mad?” post in 2019, thanks for the hit of nostalgia, feels good.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:52
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Braggart posted:A good idea anyway. We may not control the country, but we do control the party. This may be the time to focus inwards and make the party better and stronger and more forward-looking. Local government is a cesspool, and that should be changed. Swing our spotlight onto it. We're great at twitter pile-ons when one of our own says something ideologically unacceptable. Why don't we do it when a councillors' actions are unacceptable? The only news I get about local council corruption is through Private Eye's rotten boroughs column. That can be changed because we can amplify something until the mainstream media has to pick it up.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:52
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I’m sure Corbyn will deliver next time. Perhaps if Labour goes more Bennite?
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Dec 14, 2019 16:53
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I feel like a lot of the cut through last time was because they kept reporting labour stuff as scandalous and people kept going "actually that sounds good?" because it matched their lived experience. The problem with trying to do that from a fundamental socialist perspective is that there's a big divide between homeowners and renters and between people with secure jobs and people without, and this of course is also the age divide, and I'm not sure how you unify them.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:53
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Whoever put up the Labour sign outside my house has screwed it to the fence with the largest screws I've ever seen and they won't budge, so I guess I'm telling everyone to vote Labour forever now lol
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Dec 14, 2019 16:54
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Braggart posted:I think we mostly have a good approach in this thread and act to police unwarranted hostility. People who are not obviously posting in bad faith get lots of good-faith answers. Even probable bad-faith posters get the benefit of the doubt from some. But if honey doesn't work and they get lovely, out comes the vinegar. Sometimes a person was just stirring poo poo and needs to be told so, but by that point we've had a lot of good posts for the audience to read. We're not perfect, but I think as a group we generally handle this well. And as I said, if someone's being unfair we tend to point that out True however this isn't always the case even here (I recall the short shrift I got for thinking Pie was funny/O'Brien had some good points). There's a lot of would-be socialists still stuck around the centre just because they don't know any better. Suddenly feeling silly/stupid for liking something that up to that second you didn't even realise was important isn't a good effect on recruitment. e: I love the idea of pressuring to reform councils. It hadn't occurred to me the possibility of constituents assuming "Labour area, Labour's fault" when it comes to general elections but I guess I can sort of see it. Same with when I hooted and hollered about the broadband policy..well duh of course it's a no brainer to me, lefty nerd that's worked in IT and for ISPs for 20 odd years...hadn't occurred to me at all it might have sounded a bit poo poo/frivolous on the doorstep. Getting better at local level could be a big boon and we've got five years to work with, with council elections part through that I believe? NinpoEspiritoSanto fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Dec 14, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2019 16:55
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We failed at messaging. Whoever posted if you're explaining your losing is right. But it turns out a lot of our fight is the same as it's been for years, and they had some decent slogans. Instead of talking about living wage we should be talking about a fair days pay for a fair days work. Someone's already said about taking back control when it comes to nationalisation. End the housing rip off. Etc etc
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Dec 14, 2019 16:56
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How about a platform based on workplace democratisation and incentives to establish/restructure into co operatives under the slogan "Hard workers must be heard." Then, as to not alienate people, follow up with [the fact that hard workers must be heard is not incompatible with the fact that...] "As a society, we all look after one another." Which leads into basic social policies, establishment of a care service, etc. Finally putting forward the various increases on corporation tax and dividend taxes under the simple point "No more greed."
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Dec 14, 2019 16:56
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marktheando posted:Lol at the centrists blaming the Tory win on leftists being mean Can someone with a twitter please go explain to Baddiel how left and right are relative  sebzilla posted:That's slightly by design. One potential lesson from this election is that if the right wing is sliding into fascism we really need to answer the same fears they're creating and pretending to solve. Telling people "oh you don't need to worry about that, you misinformed idiot" hasn't worked. Even providing actual solutions through leftism alone hasn't worked, because it's too far removed from what people think is possible and plausible. We can adopt some of the language and rhetoric of our opponents, but ensure there's actual good policy underpinning it. This is triangulation and it'll be dumb in 2024 for the same reason it's dumb now: if a block of voters are attracted to fascism, you can't capture them off the fascists by making fascist noises, because it's obvious that you're presenting a watered down version of what they actually want. Also anecdotal but if Labour did pivot into Britain First National Socialism I wouldn't vote for them.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:57
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Braggart posted:This seems like a good idea. It's what Momentum are good at anyway. The problem is that local councils have incredibly slow turnover rates - most of them stay in post for decades. Getting them out is *theoretically* easy because they've almost all got more skeletons in the closet than Fred and Rose West, but that tends to lead to the local party being hurt just as much as the councilor themselves, and also depends on there being a non-poo poo local media (rare) and an engaged populace (even rarer) which is how they get away with that poo poo for so long in the first place.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:57
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Even under proportional representation it’s a three million loss to boris god drat johnson https://twitter.com/eoinmadsen/status/1205398705098166278?s=21
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Dec 14, 2019 16:58
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Bundy posted:True however this isn't always the case even here (I recall the short shrift I got for thinking Pie was funny/O'Brien had some good points). There's a lot of would-be socialists still stuck around the centre just because they don't know any better. Suddenly feeling silly/stupid for liking something that up to that second you didn't even realise was important isn't a good effect on recruitment. A fair point. Sometimes people do go off before there's evidence they should. I think that often comes from people who are wound up and angry lashing out because of it, so I try to be gentle with them too. Again, if someone doesn't respond to politeness, then impoliteness may be necessary. But it's a contextual weapon.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:59
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Comrade Fakename posted:Wow, a “u mad?” post in 2019, thanks for the hit of nostalgia, feels good. More importantly, an ice rear end in 2019, I thought they went extinct.
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Dec 14, 2019 16:59
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Just imagine: if Corbyn wasn’t a diehard eurosceptic and came out in support of remain a vast proportion of more than three million strong lib dem vote could have gone to Labour.
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Dec 14, 2019 17:01
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Azza Bamboo posted:"No more greed." People are greedy and selfish, particularly when at the poo poo end of society when they constantly need things. Things like this is our problem, it's virtuous and chastising. You're right, but when said to those that don't think this way it doesn't come across as obvious as we might think. It's the same when we bang the drum about equality, so many voters are in the middle of that lack of equality so it loses all meaning for them. poo poo's bad for me what about me and our correct view on equality just doesn't cut through that. Somehow we've got to lift people up then be able to demonstrably show them that's what was needed in hindsight...selling it to the individual at the moment is still what works, whether we like it or not. Bulgogi Hoagie posted:Just imagine: if Corbyn wasn’t a diehard eurosceptic and came out in support of remain a vast proportion of more than three million strong lib dem vote could have gone to Labour. Corbyn could have spray painted "gently caress off we're full" in 100 metre lettering on the cliffs of Dover and the media would still have sold him as a Remoaner to the centre and not brexity enough to the right.
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Dec 14, 2019 17:03
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