|
OwlFancier posted:The centrist position is fundamentally wrong and self defeating in the long term, blair proved that, unless you can rebut that I don't really see that there is anything more to discuss there? Yes they can win elections, but they do so at the cost of failing to address fundamental problems, which dooms them, and their parties, in the long run. The question is how to persuade people that a proper left alternative is possible, because it is the only untried alternative. Nobody has ever tried Bennism before. What fundamental problems are we looking at here precisely? e: Eh, don’t bother. Bulgogi Hoagie fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Dec 14, 2019 |
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 17:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 08:31 |
|
|
I think it's really cool that David Miliband is taking time out of failing to help refugees to shitpost on the SA forums about how centrism is good, actually
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
Bulgogi Hoagie posted:Nobody has ever tried Bennism before. Labour lost its northern seats, it's been losing them for decades, because fundamentally the centrist approach is to simply manage capitalism. It can't consider saying "no, we won't let these places decline just because they're no longer maximally economically viable on the global market" It does not offer us a solution to our problem because our problem is with capitalism, that is the force that is taking away our homes, our jobs, our lives. You can't paper over that forever. Blair may have won on hope of being something new, but what he was, was simply more of the same.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
Has anyone calculated the Lib Dems' 2017 vote-share including the Labour and Conservative MPs who defected to them after the GE? That would be interesting to compare to their 2019 results.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:I think it's really cool that David Miliband is taking time out of failing to help refugees to shitpost on the SA forums about how centrism is good, actually 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 17:59
|
|
|
Necrothatcher hasn't posted since 30 mins before The Event, I hope he's holding up OK 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 17:59
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Labour lost its northern seats, it's been losing them for decades, because fundamentally the centrist approach is to simply manage capitalism. It can't consider saying "no, we won't let these places decline just because they're no longer maximally economically viable on the global market" Plus Blair massively lost votes in 2002 and put Labour £40mn in the hole to cling on in 2005. Him stepping down in 2007 was the only thing that saw Labour regain positive poll trends until the financial crisis hit and the Tories lied their oval office arses off saying Labour caused it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:01
|
|
|
JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Necrothatcher hasn't posted since 30 mins before The Event, I hope he's holding up OK cheering himself up by digging up the witch and pissing on her corpse directly this time
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:01
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Boro south is interesting as a constituency because the decades long decline actually hit in 2017 which is why it was one of the few seats that went red>blue that election. MSEC is definitely an interesting constituency aye. Also for its hugeness and the pretty big variation in demographics across it. I’ve noticed that Middlesbrough has become a proving ground for ultra Brexity Tory boys. Simon Clarke (from whom, unfortunately, I would be able to provide some enlightening quotes) staggered around Central looking incredibly uncomfortable in 2015, and took MSEC in 2017. Cap-doffing Boy Gammon Jacob Young took his turn to get beaten in Boro in 2017 and now has taken Redcar. I don’t know what this means but I don’t like it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:02
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Labour lost its northern seats, it's been losing them for decades, because fundamentally the centrist approach is to simply manage capitalism. It can't consider saying "no, we won't let these places decline just because they're no longer maximally economically viable on the global market" I liked the concept of regional manifestos. Perhaps Labour should promise reopening specific things that people remember in their areas. Youth clubs, parks, support centres, sports and leisure facilities etc. Things that the Tories closed. This could be alongside promising specific new things, as well as more generalised investment in the regions.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:03
|
|
|
Bulgogi Hoagie posted:Nobody has ever tried Bennism before. I suggest you gently caress off, complete newcomer to this thread none of us have seen before who is obviously trolling. We've got enough poo poo to deal with just at the minute.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:03
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Labour lost its northern seats, it's been losing them for decades, because fundamentally the centrist approach is to simply manage capitalism. It can't consider saying "no, we won't let these places decline just because they're no longer maximally economically viable on the global market" Yep same thing is happening in the midlands. Telling people “were sorry you lost your jobs due to factory closures but have you considered laissaire fairez capitalism means this is a good thing? Anyway, here’s your monthly condolences check, better luck next time.” Is exactly what Blair and co were doing and what the tories are likely to continue doing now. The guy saying “labour has done nothing for us in decades was imo, right.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:04
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Liam_Baxter31/status/1205620119923298315?s=19 I cannot stress enough that in all grassroots efforts, we need to treat the Tories as the fascists they are.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:04
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1205785072244269056 that twitter thread is interesting! the @drjennings thread it refers to is this one, I assume https://twitter.com/drjennings/status/1205835422292537344 for Clark, the recommendation is PR https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1205804669668405248 and https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1205808642043400193 (a mildly amusing tweet - https://twitter.com/drjennings/status/1205856546023989248 although in the abstract, yeah, crime has displaced immigration on concerns lists, and the left (not least of which Abbott) has proven it has bite its tongue and at least say it wants ten thousand more bobbies on the beat, but the the mind still boggles at a vision of a vicious left-wing leadership race to be immediately followed by a pivot to TOUGH ON CRIME! It'd be a political pirouette for the ages)
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:08
|
|
|
Shogi posted:MSEC is definitely an interesting constituency aye. Also for its hugeness and the pretty big variation in demographics across it. From what I gather when the constituency was Langbaurgh it was more tory save for Ashok briefly winning it in the 1991 byelection, and then they glued more of south boro onto it and it went red by a mile in 97, hard, of course, to tell how much of that was constituency shift and how much of it was the labour surge of the time. But broadly I think the town's just been hollowed out, There's fewer and fewer jobs, the council housing was sold off en masse, redcar's in the shitter generally, the place has just been left to rot under decades of both the tories and labour. I think people are just sick of it, and they find tory anti-immigrant rhetoric easier to stomach than any sort of labour optimism because I think a lot of it is tainted by the blair years. Plus it doesn't help that the small towns are still largely white as snow, while the town center has a big 1st/2nd gen immigrant population around linthorpe road and that. But the contrast for only about 10 miles distance is stark. I also wonder if the big seafront renovation in redcar didn't help the tories there, that was a big project and it looks nice even if people were a bit iffy about it at the time. I think it definitely helped stop the flooding. Plus a lot of MSEC has seen big spurts of house building which... I dunno how that affects things but they're all private ownership. Probably not great? The area has visibly seen more investment under the tories than under Labour, it's all targeted at pretty middle class sorts. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:09
|
|
|
okay, meanwhile https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1205750434805243904?s=69
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:10
|
|
|
Yeah there have been decades of Labour going "who the gently caress else are they going to vote for" about their safe seat heartlands. Hard for Corbyn to overcome in a few years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:10
|
|
|
I mean losing shitheads like Ruth Smeeth is a benefit. Pity we couldn't lose McShitter. https://twitter.com/Mr_Considerate/status/1205484734287155211
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:12
|
|
|
ben bradshaw is being a massive poo poo on twitter unsurprisingly
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:20
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:But broadly I think the town's just been hollowed out, There's fewer and fewer jobs, the council housing was sold off en masse, redcar's in the shitter generally, the place has just been left to rot under decades of both the tories and labour. I think people are just sick of it, and they find tory anti-immigrant rhetoric easier to stomach than any sort of labour optimism because I think a lot of it is tainted by the blair years. Naw, I totally agree. I grew up through Major and Blair, and the experience soured me on Labour for years. There was this palpable, communal sigh of relief at getting *some* kind of Labour government in. Then things...just stayed the same. St. Hilda's still stood as a ruin at our town's heart. The skies stank with burning cows, and Middlehaven never happened, and the Tees gradually at least got cleaner as our industries gargled on their blood. It's part of the Teesside mindset I think to be wry and canny. But when you get nothing from your efforts and loyalties, that turns to nihilism easily. I've seen it and felt it. Stuff like the Green Industrial Revolution and decentralisation could help us a lot. But somehow we have to prove that it can happen. If we don't then Central will go too in the end - 50% turnout in a general is a worrying sign.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:26
|
|
|
That was my take too, there's still the fabrication section of british steel running, Teesside would have been a perfect place to set up the works for making new energy infrastructure. But I don't think anyone actually told people that except me to the odd person who would listen. Did they run ads in the evening gazette or anything? Middlehaven as in the junction? Were they originally planning to make houses there or something in north ormesby? I was a bit young at the time. I know there's little relics of what seemed like it was planning to be a bigger development like the big market place and the "health village" next to.. well the A66 on one side and a much older bit of town on the other. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Dec 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:29
|
|
|
I never saw anything, though Lauren Dingsdale did say to push carbon capture in one MSEC session I did. I rolled it out on the doors with people I thought would listen, to the best of my ability, but you need the messaging backing you up to make it feel plausible. It's a prime example of where localism could have really helped imo. e: Middlehaven was gonna be the grand 'Venice-on-Tees' regen project over the border, but all that came of it was the Riverside stadium (a freezing loving cold stadium that became the pattern for all the new concrete bowl stadiums) and a confused mess of inputs from starchitects and planners. It's still a soulless void and a very sad place Shogi fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Dec 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:33
|
|
|
Yeah lauren did mention it to me too. But there was nothing nationally, you kind of had to infer it. Which was easy for me, but probably a lot harder for people paying less attention.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:34
|
|
|
i posted it in cspam but honestly the most damning bit of corbyn';s leadership is not just doing a purge like boris did
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:44
|
|
|
*shrug* that's not the man we elected, and I knew that the second time I voted for him, and could probably have predicted it the first time if I'd thought about it. It might be something we have to do to keep control of the party but I don't think it was a bad choice absent hindsight, I certainly didn't quite expect the blairites to be such godawful wreckers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:46
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:51
|
|
|
Nettle Soup posted:Nah, I'll stand by it, if you really want to build a campaign on love, empathy and social equality, spending a load of your time literally shouting "gently caress 45% of the population! Bastards!" helps nothing. I want to build a campaign that stands for love and equality, but anyone who refuses to at least accept that others extend love and equality to their fellow man might as well die in a fire for all I care. Anyway, in 10-20 years enough crusty racists will have died from cancer and heart disease that the question becomes moot and the rest will receive equal rights and benefits whether they like it or not.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:52
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
feedmegin posted:I suggest you gently caress off, complete newcomer to this thread none of us have seen before who is obviously trolling. We've got enough poo poo to deal with just at the minute. and what a fine job you've done....*checks election results* oh my
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:52
|
|
|
sleep with the vicious posted:and what a fine job you've done....*checks election results* oh my Job with what? He said deal with, not perform. Although I do like the insinuation that UKMT held enough power to be responsible for the election result.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:54
|
|
|
sleep with the vicious posted:and what a fine job you've done....*checks election results* oh my that av suggests you're a fyad reject
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 18:58
|
|
|
At least the did-nothings gloating IRL have the guts to risk a bit of handbags at work or whatever. Kinda hard to get worked up at the extremely online canvassing-efficacy police
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:00
|
|
|
You can saw A LOT about the American Left, but at the very least the American Left has a relative solid coalition behind it. In contrast it seems that the English Left doesn't appeal to anyone besides youth and people in the big city.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:01
|
|
|
*UKMT focuses on how to learn from our defeat and do better next time* Hungry trolls: LOL U LOST LOSERS, DID U REALISE THAT? It's quite predictable and pathetic, really 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:02
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVKUrEIPMew At the risk of wrath for bringing up O'Brien, I had no idea from the campaign that Corbyn would have such a problem in Birmingham (and other areas I assume) based on the image of IRA connections that union factory workers would be driven to Boris. The appearance of anti-semetism, the appearance of taxing regular households (however inaccurate both of those may be) putting voters off I understood, but not this one. Guess that's what I get for living in the south.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:04
|
|
|
suck my woke dick posted:I want to build a campaign that stands for love and equality, but anyone who refuses to at least accept that others extend love and equality to their fellow man might as well die in a fire for all I care. Generation isn't class, there are plenty of young tories e: like, if conservatism was a thing that was just going to die out why the gently caress are we still fighting essentially the same fight they were fighting in the 70s bionic vapour boy fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Dec 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:05
|
|
|
I got it quite often people saying Corbyn is "dangerous for this country" and then going on about the IRA and Hamas. I'll admit I dismissed it as small, because this came from voters in my constituency who went on to say they'll be voting BXP, but maybe the IRA smear was bigger than I had thought. The question, then, is can a new candidate win back these voters or will the media have something prepared for someone who hasn't ever touched Hamas or the IRA in their lives?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:09
|
|
|
The only real-life person I know who was a 'life-long Labour voter but I hate Corbyn' type was based entirely on the IRA thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:11
|
|
|
blunt posted:the image of IRA connections The IRA thing was what most people I spoke to came up with when asked why they didn't like him, if they could come up with anything past 'urgh I don't know, I just hate him, ugh' (so the second most common thing). A snappy 'you don't make peace starting with gently caress You, and ending the Troubles has ended a ton of suffering and death' 100% always resulted in them not being able to come up with a response. But that doesn't win any hearts and minds either, just makes them feel slighted and annoyed. When I could convince people it was by using some personal or local issue as a lever, and I usually had to work hard to find one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:12
|
|
|
bionic vapour boy posted:Generation isn't class, there are plenty of young tories true, but centre-to-left dominated below-45s in this election  from https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/ ed: we still need to know demographic turnout figures, i think? CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Dec 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 08:31 |
|
|
bionic vapour boy posted:Generation isn't class, there are plenty of young tories The causes of it vary, I think. The reason the youth swing labour I think is a mixture of not being as exposed to the booj media, having more (even if parasocial) exposure to a more diverse group of people and thoughts through social media, and being generationally locked out of the things that turn people conservative like decent jobs and property. Unless the tories address that, and I'm not sure they can, they're going to keep having a problem. My concern is that they expend resources on effective nationalist rhetoric to provide an alternative explanation combined with actual investment. Actual right populism. But they have to make brexit work yet and climate change can't really be solved by declaring war on it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 19:15
|
|