|
Shogi posted:What are people's plans for their own participation in the movement should we end up with, say... Yeah, kinda seconding this. When the time comes if someone can recommend to me someone else who’s pretty left, so that I can vote for them, I’d be grateful. I don’t want the party to go more centre left, if it got Blair-y again I’ll cancel my membership. I’m pretty emotionally exhausted at the moment, having never been quite so invested as I was this time, and I just can’t bring myself to get trawling through stuff myself yet. 316! 316 times a loving day I currently have to counsel myself to stop writing replies to loving idiots on Facebook and Twitter quidditch it and quit it fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 14, 2019 |
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 01:39 |
|
|
Shogi posted:What are people's plans for their own participation in the movement should we end up with, say... I'd stay for a while, see if we can keep control of the NEC and so on. But I would not help a centrist into Number 10, since I think the election of Blair was ultimately a bad thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:28
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I don't know, it depends on what membership means any more. If we still have an effort to retain control of the party I will keep it and vote, if not... Is there much point? this is why they were planning a shadow leader and cabinet. they were hoping to overhaul the NEC
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:28
|
|
|
What about instant-runoff voting? We can stop the vote splitting, whilst keeping our majority (Not that any of this poo poo is going to get done within the next 5 years)
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:28
|
|
|
Oh dear me posted:Yes, and I recall Labour leaders ignoring constituencies when they had more power, too. I'm not suggesting improving participatory democracy because it will always lead to my faction winning, but because it is a good thing in itself. It gives members a real say, and local party meetings an educational function and a better purpose than approving the minutes of the last meeting and arguing about conference expenses. ok... in that sense, yes, there is value in a sounding board for all involved, but the negative electoral effect of a vicious party struggle over message discipline is also too great to ignore. Insofar as good-faith advocacy of intraparty democracy goes, it has to be said that that genuine debate should also be behind closed doors (i.e., not stump speeches for intraparty selections or worse external elections) and it should not be possible to trigger public party plebiscites, or anything (even theoretically non-binding) that could be read as an expression of party will that clashes with the actual constitutional process for executive mandate formation. if there's already a way for the party to build legitimate expressions of party collective decisions, it is not good to tack on a dozen more ways for competing processes to contest it! There can be shared feedback, there can be some collective interest and discussion in the feedback, but outside of officially-ordained processes with high participation/quorums and high visibility to allow competing stakeholders to make their case, competing processes should not be able to gain ambiguous legitimacy; they would be too easy and too rewarding to rig and the party members would be devoting their energies to rigging them. Hence procedural opacity over the extent of interest or the sausage factory around the wording is institutionally necessary. Something very much like the NPF in its current shape is always going to be necessary for any sounding board at all. the other point is that CLP power is a kind of petty reward for being willing to do extremely boring and unexciting things like review line-items in the sinking fund. This is actual work. Someone who saves a few thousand quid by holding the smoke alarm maintenance budget to account has made a few thousand quid for the organisation. But it's also extremely personally unrewarding otherwise. ronya fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Dec 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:30
|
|
|
Hungry posted:A certain other oafish nationalist also promised investment, and then simply didn't do any, but his followers all believe he has because reasons. Boris is Thatcher and Trump's Reagan. Boris the more pure form of this nationalist ideology while Trump is still perceived as its leader.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:41
|
|
|
poo poo like this is extremely grim https://twitter.com/pdkmitchell/status/1205855259643564032?s=20
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:53
|
|
|
Think about the most basic poo poo head you know and you wanted them to eat falafel. One way would be talking to them about it over months, explaining the ingredients until serving it up after cooking it for ages. Another way is just serving it with no mention of what it is and hope they like it. The third way is just making it together, they have there's and have yours and the next one they do is better. I think you have to collaborate with people to get them involved, otherwise it's just prescriptive and then fails. With regards to Labour's next do, I think it should be along the falafel principle - simple. I reckon just a few simple messages should be part of the next manifesto over a 20+ page do. If you can explain it to a child you can explain it to anyone - have the underlying theory but don't talk about it until prodded. There's all this performative bullshit about facts and rules, but most people don't care. Give them a slogan, an image - they want monster munch rather than Michelin star food. The weather Maybe just saying the weather is dumb, but a climate focused agenda will work. Nobody here likes a hot summer or a wet winter, having a proposal how to change that could work. Jobs for hard workers People like competition. Whether nationalist or otherwise, it's the idea you have suffered and people pay attention to your suffering is important. When I was younger the JFK bit about don't ask what you can do for your country etc permeated - which I think is bullshit. But if nationalism is important, latch onto that core concept that work can set you free. It's how most people experience school and it should be transposed to adulthood Opportunity for all Vague but relevant, depending how you see it. Framed in a way that society isn't fair, suggesting that you don't need privelige to excel would be attractive I reckon. So many people talk about working hard for money or just the masochistic angle of working beyond your station to show your colleagues aren't working hard as you. We fetishise work, so lean towards that. Most people have had a poo poo education and upbringing and its these base messages that push through. When we get into power we can do what we want, but the core concept of work and reward is key whilst also nodding at environmental factors everyone can appreciate. You can phrase stuff like the right without it taking the piss out of people. KISS
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:54
|
|
|
Do brits not like hot summers??
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:57
|
|
|
honestly I think corbyn should of run with "putting the great back in great britain" but the problem is it alienates the NI people who no one cares about, despite being a good slogan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:57
|
|
|
Jose posted:poo poo like this is extremely grim Funny how I, a white immigrant, am always "one of the right ones" I wonder what it is that makes these people single out people of BAME background 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2019 23:58
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Do brits not like hot summers?? They don't like any weather, it's a country of people who complain just for something to say. I felt like poo poo yesterday, today I'm alright - part of me is starting to even dislike the way Corbyn did stuff, put the loving boot in lad, the future rests on it. I want the next Labour leader to be furious.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:05
|
|
|
I don't think fury is that popular, honestly. Not in excess and not among people who don't already agree with you. I'm not saying don't try it, but I don't think it's the answer to the problem. I think it's a fairly extreme left thing and a right wing thing. And perhaps a youthful thing but we don't have a problem with youth support at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:11
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I don't think fury is that popular, honestly. Not in excess and not among people who don't already agree with you. Perhaps not the bilious fury of the reality of never being a grandparent, but to show emotion would be more worthwhile than socialist terminator. I think there should be a split between a poltically active body and a more direct action group, like XR with more teeth - less centralised and more disruptive. Constant fuckery is the Other the left can work with whilst the right appears weaker. The hammer and sickle aren't tools of the worker but implements to destroy infrastructure. In terms of what do we do next; I don't think protesting or marching works. The image of a march is so commonplace it barely hits the sides. We need the shock - dead refugees on beaches, people standing in front of tanks, superhero fathers freeclimbing up steep buildings. Generate that novelty and curate an image that sums up a feeling more than a bar chart or numbers. I've sent out messages to colleagues and peers I work with but don't know through various work accounts to get organised. Might not come to owt, but I've arranged open meetings with people to discuss what we do next. Even if its just talking about socialism, that's a start. The way this thread has rearranged my brain over the years I want to pass onto a wider audience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR7YT7sAZbY
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:19
|
|
|
Shogi posted:What are people's plans for their own participation in the movement should we end up with, say... I've thought about this myself. I'd remain in the party and try to influence its votes for any left wing policies that could make a difference, or future contests. I might leave if I can see that the tide is against me and I'm wasting my effort, but my gut feeling is that the youth are increasingly socialist and we need to keep the dream alive while the olds get older and die. That said, I would vote green and risk my red card promoting this if the greens keep up their socialist policies. Ultimately the plan is to know where my political home is and where we may be able to build one for socialism. I always join my union and encourage others to do the same. But I'm not an idealogue or a person of loyalty and faith. I believe socialism works by my understanding of it now, but I'm not an academic who can sit there and explain how economies supposedly work. If Boris' plan makes life tangibly better for me and the people I care about, I'd put my hands up and say "I was in the wrong religion, mate." By my understanding of economies, which largely comes from the socialist left bubble on the internet, I don't think Boris' plan will work, but now we get to see. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Dec 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:31
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:Funny how I, a white immigrant, am always "one of the right ones" "genuine concerns about immigration"
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:31
|
|
|
Guys my heart aches Is Jezza ganna have an okay life?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:35
|
|
|
Calico Heart posted:Guys my heart aches He's probably dodged being assassinated to be honest
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:38
|
|
|
 when is this coming back?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:43
|
|
|
Edstone It's the Edstone It's the greatest party policy From a Basingstoke firm where it went remains a mystery.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:49
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/InfoSnores/status/1205975496632217607 why does he keep coming back CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Dec 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:49
|
|
|
The absolute boy helped us start fighting again so sign the nice letter https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXSUa1uALi6OQ7zSwuPFNELFMkfV-XAlYZ0q4Tk1HOAR8KRg/viewform
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:50
|
|
|
ronya posted:Blue Labour is trash, but I don't think it has a hope - neither the party left nor right like it, and there's no room for a third faction in the party (arguably there isn't even room for two given the winner-take-all system of party votes). Both the party left and right certainly feel entitled to flirt with anti-immigration sentiments when electorally convenient, but that does not a party movement make. NZ First is 100% an ethnonationalist party, and it's absolutely unreplicable outside of its peculiar NZ context of "massive racist Winnie who happens to be Maori" lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:56
|
|
|
Chuka Umana posted:
"Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair"
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 00:59
|
|
|
CGI Stardust posted:https://twitter.com/InfoSnores/status/1205975496632217607 What's even the difference between the CPGB-ML and blue labour and galloway?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
Facial hair.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 01:18
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:Facial hair.  Accurate.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/rev_avocado/status/1205987199486963713
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 01:34
|
|
|
About proportional representation: I'm from Finland which has always had PR. For me it's just one of those things where obviously you do it like this, it's dead simple and also the best solution. Right?  In Finland historically there's been 3 big parties, which each get around 25% of the vote; then the government is a coalition of two of these + a few of the smaller parties. It has honestly seemed to work pretty ok, we had that Nordic welfare state and all that good stuff. I say had as right now of course there's a bunch of austerity and also the loving nationalist party is now one of the big ones... it looks like four big parties with maybe 20% each right now. Anyway; to me the question is more like "why would you want something that's not PR". Like, why would anyone want a system like FPTP, where some party gets 30% of the votes and 60% of the seats? Or a preferential system which seems complicated and isn't proportional? Instead with PR it's 30% of voters voted for X, so X get 30% of seats, the end. Oh well, not like the UK FPTP is ever getting replaced with anything better anyway 
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 01:50
|
|
|
It's because we don't like change. It's scary.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:13
|
|
|
The usual objection is that PR leads to unstable governments
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:16
|
|
|
Shogi posted:What are people's plans for their own participation in the movement should we end up with, say... I will leave the Labour party. quote:Jessflips (best mates with a Tory so unlikeable even the Tories realise he's electoral poison, general fuckwit), or; I will leave the Labour party. quote:Yvette 'would've won a supermajority' Cooper... I will leave the Labour party. gently caress centrists, gently caress all the smug bile spewers currently making GBS threads over one of the largest activist movements in history. If we let these cunts get back in control we have lost for an entire generation. For all the sneering about 'we won the argument' upthread, we did win the argument. There was a genuinely energised, willing to fight base to the party. It got hosed over by voter apathy and the tories sitting there yelling GET BREXIT DONE so often people began to believe it was their own thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein quote:Emmanuel Goldstein is a fictional character in George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four. He is the principal enemy of the state according to the Party of the totalitarian Oceania. He is depicted as the head of a mysterious and possibly fictitious dissident organization called "The Brotherhood" and as having written the book The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism. E: Vitamin P posted:The absolute boy helped us start fighting again so sign the nice letter https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXSUa1uALi6OQ7zSwuPFNELFMkfV-XAlYZ0q4Tk1HOAR8KRg/viewform Signed this. And searching it for my surname I'm pleasantly surprised to find more than a dozen of my extended family / olde scotland clan name on there too. RockyB fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Dec 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:20
|
|
|
marktheando posted:The usual objection is that PR leads to unstable governments no it doesn't
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:30
|
|
|
lol like we're getting PR during God Emperor Johnson's reign.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:31
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:lol like we're getting PR during God Emperor Johnson's reign. This. It's pointless theorizing this because our future is the pressure of a Johnson's boot on our necks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:34
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/ObserverUK/status/1205948964467429377Oddly conciliatory piece by Phillips, which I guess more-or less confirms that she's gonna throw her hat into the ring soon. Mostly posting it for this:quote:Some call me a Blairite because I’m evangelical about the difference Sure Start and tax credits made to my life. But I marched against Iraq, and I didn’t even become an MP until eight years after he’d left parliament, so how does that fit? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:36
|
|
|
There is a grim part of me that wants to see Phillips become leader only to get called a communist terrorist like all the other leaders were. It would hardly be relaxing or fun, but if someone needs a reduced ego, it might be necessary. I cannot say whether this would actually happen if Phillips became leader though. But it does seem fair to say that any party leader, of any party, is going to be hated by someone, and I'm not sure the sensible centrists realise this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:38
|
|
|
Yeah that article almost humanised Jess Flaps for me, then I remembered 'stab him in the front' and this video and how easy it is for people to slip into a faux caring persona https://twitter.com/closetpolitics/status/1205435814521520128?s=20 Let's have some actual political analysis from juuuust before the election http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/punishmentdemocracy/ quote:Some context for the current election campaign is contained in the recently published table below. The two poles of credibility are now quite familiar: nurses at the top, politicians at the bottom. Journalists are perched slightly above politicians (and advertisers), though I wonder how much further damage the events of the last few weeks will have done to trust in the media. In any case, the collapsing distinction between ‘the media’ and ‘politics’ that has been deliberately triggered by Boris Johnson’s team means that the interface of politics and news is now probably the most dubious of all: incredulity squared.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:47
|
|
|
I mean the usual argument against list-PR in the UK is the importance of the constituency link between elected representatives and constituents - thats why no one really propose classical list-PR and the usual recommendations are STV or a variant of MMP (AV with MMP being the recommendation of the Jenkins commission back when we where actually thinking about maybe changing the voting system)
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 01:39 |
|
|
Random Integer posted:If Labour policies actually managed to pull the Tories left in terms of public investment that's good. The difference: 1) if you already hate Labour but have no clue how things work, government spending is bad until proven otherwise because it's a Labour policy (or good until proven otherwise because it's a Tory' policy), not because you have an opinion on government spending as such 2) if leftists are doing the spending rich people will poo poo a brick because it's an attack by the class enemy, but if Tories are the ones doing the spending, rich people can always get cross at Tory MP and donor friends at dinner parties should they get even slightly inconvenienced.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2019 02:59
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!