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waffle posted:Jess Phillips is a special case to me. She's so obviously self-serving and was so strongly anti-Corbyn the whole time that it'd be very hard for me to support a party led by her. I guess I'd stay in the party to keep voting against her but no way I'd go campaigning or anything like that. The other centrists being floated (Starmer, Thornberry, even Cooper to a degree) would have a huge problem galvanizing youth/volunteers like Corbyn did, but I personally at least would be able to hold my tongue and go on the doorstep for them. Isn't it a 'making perfect make enemy of the good' situation to be so against Starmer and Thornberry? I feel Labour could end up with much worse as leader. 319 is the number of Kursk class submarines that sunk in the 'great kursk submarine fuckbarrel event'
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Dec 15, 2019 12:12
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Good read ronya. Sums it all up nicely.
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Dec 15, 2019 12:15
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I think Starmer or Thornberry would be acceptable. Neither of them are dumb enough to think that completely sidelining/purging the left is a good idea.
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Dec 15, 2019 12:16
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Starmer as Corbyn to Thornberry's McDonnell wouldn't be a disaster if the likes of Long-Bailey don't get a look in.
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Dec 15, 2019 12:19
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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not being able to swing at least the Remain voters in Leave seats would be the problem there, if what I'm seeing in the reports is right - ultimately hard to out-brexit BXP in any case - horrible terrain, the collapse of strategic ambiguity was always going to bite hard, Labour should have been pouring resources into a defensive campaign, &c. but those are operational flaws really
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Dec 15, 2019 12:20
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chi onwurah has been suggested as a potential leadership candidate and as she's local to me and hates mike ashley i'm duty bound to support her
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Dec 15, 2019 12:21
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Regarde Aduck posted:Isn't it a 'making perfect make enemy of the good' situation to be so against Starmer and Thornberry? I feel Labour could end up with much worse as leader. no centrist is "good", they will all sell you out if you give them an opportunity, so work with them if you must but never ever let them be in control
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Dec 15, 2019 12:21
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Jose posted:chi onwurah has been suggested as a potential leadership candidate and as she's local to me and hates mike ashley i'm duty bound to support her I still haven't forgiven her for calling Corbyn a racist during one of the coups.
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Dec 15, 2019 12:24
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Ms Adequate posted:I'm staying out of politics for a bit for my own wellbeing, but I just wanted to say a couple of things before I dip: I think your decision to step back is absolutely fair and sensible. I'm glad though that I can see hope in this post. I have a lot of respect for you. I look forward to your return, when you're ready 
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Dec 15, 2019 12:32
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Thanks to whoever was posting Kate Tempest, I've been mainlining her albums and it's really helped me out during the last couple of days
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Dec 15, 2019 12:33
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reminder for people who want ot post UK stuff that isn't politics we have a thread for it https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3733476
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Dec 15, 2019 12:36
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Thank you all for the replies. It does seem that a new party under FPTP won't do much good.ronya posted:interesting throughout: Very interesing indeed. This bit in particular: quote:Labour had many lines in this campaign. Their initial headline message, “It’s Time For Real Change”, tested brilliantly. It communicated the radicalism of the manifesto positively, connected with the strong desires for change across all voter tribes, and made clear the contrast with the Tories’ offer of “more of the same”. However, it was used too infrequently and inconsistently in the campaign. Headquarters started using “On Your Side” instead after they belatedly realised the threat to the Labour Leave group; but this message was too inert to be an effective counter to “Get Brexit Done”. Along with testimonies from activists about lack of support from local parties etc, it kinda makes me think that there's a heap of admin/organisational problems within Labour itself that haven't been properly addressed. I suppose issues like that are inevitable in any large organisation, however this might be worth doing something about
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Dec 15, 2019 12:37
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Regarde Aduck posted:Isn't it a 'making perfect make enemy of the good' situation to be so against Starmer and Thornberry? I feel Labour could end up with much worse as leader. That said thankfully Labour leadership elections aren't FPTP so no strategic voting needed, I'll be happy to vote for them to keep Phillips out but ranked below the left candidates. Also, surely everyone who cares is already a member, but in case anyone isn't an active member, don't forget they'll instate a membership cutoff date so the sooner you're a member the better you can Keep Jess Phillips Out waffle fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Dec 15, 2019 |
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Dec 15, 2019 12:39
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https://twitter.com/maliharez/status/1205929379127267330?s=19
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Dec 15, 2019 12:41
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Lmao https://twitter.com/JohnSimpsonNews/status/1206010631763234817?s=19
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Dec 15, 2019 12:42
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Of course they are. This achieves three important goals: 1) Begin the process of laundering the state broadcaster, so that it can be re-used in future campaigns 2) Builds a "both sides had accusations of bias" narrative that neatly muddies discussion 3) Continues the legend of the anti-establishment hero, Boris loving Johnson
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Dec 15, 2019 12:54
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Chuka Umana posted:
It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it, but the raging torrent of homo-history contains strong rightist undercurrents. That goes back to at least Ernst Röhm, who was unusually open in admiring the homoerotic themes in Nazi thought and culture. In some ways it probably goes back to similar thinking in ancient Sparta, to a lesser extent the weaponised homosexuality of the lokhoi of Thebes and Elis that fought them, and further. These days a lot of gay Britons are staunch liberal capitalists - after all, that system has done alright by them. We're anything but immune to selfishness or false consciousness or failures of extrapolation. You can meet plenty of 'punk Tory' gay lads who'll fill your ear with poo poo about how much harder it was to come out as a TaxPayers Alliance member than as a twink with massive daddy issues. Their presence in parliament does not automatically mean anything good. e: I feel I should point out for clarity's sake that a lot of these people are lucky 'useful idiots' being used to pinkwash the gently caress out of an engine of misery Shogi fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Dec 15, 2019 |
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Dec 15, 2019 13:08
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Lol, this and that recent guardian article in which all the young bbc journalists despaired about senior management and their editors loving things up
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Dec 15, 2019 13:11
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Did anyone else get the Momentum email about a conference call with John McDonnell tonight?
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Dec 15, 2019 13:12
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I'm going to take a break from the thread for a bit, so I'm going to find the quirkiest coffee shop I can find in Norwich and read some Discworld. Remember to take some time for yourself if you're feeling overwhelmed.
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Dec 15, 2019 13:15
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jaete posted:About proportional representation: I'm from Finland which has always had PR. For me it's just one of those things where obviously you do it like this, it's dead simple and also the best solution. Right? OK, let's think about this on a human, personal level. Under proportional representation, you get to vote for exactly what you believe in, and you can be pretty sure that the tendency is going to get direct representation in the legislature, right? That's the big selling point - you don't have to worry about tactical voting (much; there are still ways that thresholds and allocation formulae can be gamed) or being in an unfashionable tendency within a larger party. You just vote for exactly what you believe in, and then it gets representation. Trouble is, it's extremely rare for one single party to get an absolute majority. (Literally the only example I can think of is the Scottish parliament.) Having voted passionately for a manifesto tailored to exactly how you would like the country to be, even if your party ends up on the winning side, you still then have to go and watch chunks of it get horse-traded away in coalition negotiations. Nothing happens for months while everyone haggles and negotiates and sorts out exactly who gets what cabinet post and what they're going to bring forward and what they're going to leave and who the premier's going to be and so on and so forth. At the most extreme end, you vote passionately for the SPD to throw Mutti out, and then ooops, here comes another GroKo with Mutti in charge that isn't actually going to change anything; or you vote passionately and then you have to do it all over again in four months and know that you're probably going to get roughly the same answer. It's usually not quite that harsh, but still; you vote for exactly what you want, but you know you're never going to get it, which can feel deeply unsatisfying. And then, yes, "PR produces unstable governments" is somewhat overblown in British discourse, but still; the chance of a government collapsing and needing to restart the process all over again remains far higher under PR. Under FPTP, this is exactly t'other way about. You almost certainly have to consider making a compromise of some sort in the way you vote; either your preferred party has a candidate from a tendency you don't like, or your preferred party is never going to win your seat so you have to consider whether to vote tactically or throw your vote away or vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party instead. If you win, the party's manifesto probably contains some things you like, and some things you can take or leave, and some things you'd rather not have in there. The unsatisfying bit all comes at the ballot box. However, if you win, you're probably going to win an absolute majority. You may have had to compromise to get there, but now you're in power, things start happening literally right away. Your leader goes to the Queen and becomes Prime Minister that morning. The new cabinet is in place within a few days. No bullshit, no fear about that one central plank of your manifesto that you really believed in getting traded away. There'll be a new session of Parliament within a few weeks, and legislation to introduce that central plank will be coming along within a month or two and there's nothing the other lot can do to stop it, because they lost and you won, the time for compromise is over, and now you get to do what you said you would for the next four and a half years or so, and you can at least be sure you know which way things are going to go in that time. This is not a completely undesirable state of affairs and there is a lot to be said in favour of it, even if it requires an unfair system to make it happen. What I'd like to see looked at more closely is the French system for electing local representatives for communes of over 1,000 people, which (to brutally over-simplify) operates PR with a winner's bonus, so that the largest grouping is guaranteed to get just over 50% of the available seats (but no more) to give them a slender working majority.
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Dec 15, 2019 13:18
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Ikwaylx posted:I'm going to take a break from the thread for a bit, so I'm going to find the quirkiest coffee shop I can find in Norwich and read some Discworld. I'm going to cobble together a rickety structure from a variety of mismatched parts and hope it doesn't immediately collapse under the slightest strain. Meaning I'm going to play Poly Bridge, not form a left-wing government 
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Dec 15, 2019 13:24
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Has there been any analysis on just how consequential the May EU elections were for this election? Pushing the Tories to own hard Brexit and giving the LibDems a reason to delude themselves (and in several seats, enough voters to be consequential) will have had enormous ramifications for the next five years (and beyond). On staying a Labour Party member: I intend to stay a member even if we get a centrist in charge (Phillips would be the only exception). I would probably reduce the amount I contribute to the minimum, though.
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Dec 15, 2019 13:29
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How do you guys stave off the feeling of hopelessness that comes with paying any attention to politics? How the hell does this country untangle from the mess we keep hurling ourselves further and further into? Why are so many people keener to insult and spite those warning about the dire consequences of Tory profiteering, callousness and hypercapitalism than actually caring about said dire consequences or the victims of them? I can't stop worrying that we won't collectively start giving a poo poo about the whirlpool we're merrily sailing into until things are irredeemably hosed, perhaps not even then. I mean what is even the point in elections if you can win by just openly, obviously lying about quite literally everything? The illusion of loving choice? This country is exhausting to care about.
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Dec 15, 2019 13:45
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Politics is driven by material conditions, and capitalism has inherent contradictions which make it unable to avoid creating conditions where people want to get rid of it, or at the least oppose it. It can't win forever, it will always face another crisis. Electoralism isn't the only path, I had hoped that the time was right that we could win through it and use it to push socialism into more aspects of people's lives but the other side managed to rally against it, because that path is genuinely rigged against us. The other paths are harder because they've been thoroughly demolished over the past decades, by all governments, but I think they will see more growth the worse we do electorally. Hopefully by people who understand them better than me.
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Dec 15, 2019 13:50
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There is a time to leave the labour party in a huff cause the centrists have corrupted it but it isn't now and it won't be even if Jessflaps gets in, that will make it closer though
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Dec 15, 2019 13:54
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w0o0o0o posted:How do you guys stave off the feeling of hopelessness that comes with paying any attention to politics? How the hell does this country untangle from the mess we keep hurling ourselves further and further into? Why are so many people keener to insult and spite those warning about the dire consequences of Tory profiteering, callousness and hypercapitalism than actually caring about said dire consequences or the victims of them? I can't stop worrying that we won't collectively start giving a poo poo about the whirlpool we're merrily sailing into until things are irredeemably hosed, perhaps not even then. namesake posted:Tories only managed a 1% vote increase, Labour just hosed up their messaging over Brexit allowing critical voters in marginals to switch or not vote and the level of organisational seperation that existed between the public and the party meant not enough people believed or heard about the changes for the better being offered in the manifesto to make up for it.
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Dec 15, 2019 13:58
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The #ALLINFORABBOTT hashtag is trending, and guess which political affiliation started it off. I recommend not looking at it.
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Dec 15, 2019 14:03
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I've been feeling like my dog died (I guess our campaign did die like a dog) but I had a dream where I poo poo my guts out for a couple hours and now I feel better, nice metaphor, brain.
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Dec 15, 2019 14:03
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Even if Jessflaps somehow won the Leadership Election I'd stay in the Labour Party. I'd give it a lot less of my money & time, but I'd stay in. EDIT: Even if it was only to back the best PPC in the list in 2024.
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Dec 15, 2019 14:03
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w0o0o0o posted:How do you guys stave off the feeling of hopelessness that comes with paying any attention to politics? How the hell does this country untangle from the mess we keep hurling ourselves further and further into? Why are so many people keener to insult and spite those warning about the dire consequences of Tory profiteering, callousness and hypercapitalism than actually caring about said dire consequences or the victims of them? I can't stop worrying that we won't collectively start giving a poo poo about the whirlpool we're merrily sailing into until things are irredeemably hosed, perhaps not even then. This is not an answer to your question but I think of the Titanic and the people that died on it. Specifically, at what point the people on that ship were dead. "About 20 minutes after going into the water", right? Technically I guess. But no, it was kind of inevitable after the iceberg hit, those people were going to die no matter what. The wave function of their probabilities collapsed and there was nothing from that point, personally that they could do to effect their outcome. And you can go back and back picking earlier and earlier points in time and say well here it was always likely, here it was unavoidable, here it was the first sign of danger. It's morbid I know. And I think knowing what we know, going back in time to stop things from going wrong, what could you do? Convince them to make the water tight bulkheads go up to the deck at the design phase? Tell the guy hey you really ought to not forget your binoculars? Try and convince people that there ought to be more life rafts, not to push the engines going for a speed record, I mean what? What point could you convince a group of people that full of hubris, who would think you a mad woman for pointing out problems on an unsinkable ship, caring about the survival of the human ballast on the lower decks and cluttering up their promenade deck with safety equipment they don't need? Spoil your achievements with your constant nay saying? This is how I felt about politics for a long time and I had relatively recently dug my way out of thanks to this thread. I probably ought not to be dumping this in here tbh but I mean, I share the frustration I only hope that the helplessness passes and I can think of something useful to do. I just donated a gently caress ton of food to the food bank cos I couldn't think of anything else, and it feels like a band aid.
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Dec 15, 2019 14:04
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Isomermaid posted:This is not an answer to your question but I think of the Titanic and the people that died on it. Specifically, at what point the people on that ship were dead. "About 20 minutes after going into the water", right? Technically I guess. But no, it was kind of inevitable after the iceberg hit, those people were going to die no matter what. The wave function of their probabilities collapsed and there was nothing from that point, personally that they could do to effect their outcome. And you can go back and back picking earlier and earlier points in time and say well here it was always likely, here it was unavoidable, here it was the first sign of danger. It's morbid I know. What if you're wrong about the timing and the real point of collapsing probabilities is the struggle that starts right after you give up? Or in fact, the event that collapses the probabilities is you giving up?
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Dec 15, 2019 14:09
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*Ronya drags the folder full of pre-written essays titled “Why Labour Should Return to Centrism After its Victory” into the recycle bin and then opens the folder named “Why Labour Should Return to Centrism After its Loss,” ready to deploy.*
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Dec 15, 2019 14:10
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Trin Tragula posted:OK, let's think about this on a human, personal level. Under proportional representation, you get to vote for exactly what you believe in, and you can be pretty sure that the tendency is going to get direct representation in the legislature, right? That's the big selling point - you don't have to worry about tactical voting (much; there are still ways that thresholds and allocation formulae can be gamed) or being in an unfashionable tendency within a larger party. You just vote for exactly what you believe in, and then it gets representation. It turns out that this isn't even true - up to a quarter of voters in Belgium (which has PR) don't vote for their preferred party because of strategic decisions about coalitions partners, who will be the biggest party etc. Shogi posted:It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it, but the raging torrent of homo-history contains strong rightist undercurrents. That goes back to at least Ernst Röhm, who was unusually open in admiring the homoerotic themes in Nazi thought and culture. In some ways it probably goes back to similar thinking in ancient Sparta, to a lesser extent the weaponised homosexuality of the lokhoi of Thebes and Elis that fought them, and further. These days a lot of gay Britons are staunch liberal capitalists - after all, that system has done alright by them. We're anything but immune to selfishness or false consciousness or failures of extrapolation. Jeremy Gilbert has some great analysis where he talks about the two groups that massively benefited from neoliberalism are gay men and middle class women, as they were primary recipients of the social liberalisation but also had the financial means to benefit without relying on the state.
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Dec 15, 2019 14:12
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Collier runs the gnasherjew twitter account https://twitter.com/AndrewBartletta/status/1206190483929739265?s=19
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Dec 15, 2019 14:16
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w0o0o0o posted:How do you guys stave off the feeling of hopelessness that comes with paying any attention to politics? How the hell does this country untangle from the mess we keep hurling ourselves further and further into? Why are so many people keener to insult and spite those warning about the dire consequences of Tory profiteering, callousness and hypercapitalism than actually caring about said dire consequences or the victims of them? I can't stop worrying that we won't collectively start giving a poo poo about the whirlpool we're merrily sailing into until things are irredeemably hosed, perhaps not even then. Don't know if it helps, but for be being just the observer is what was causing the most harm to my mental health. I started feeling better once I stopped just consuming the news and started to try and be proactive, even if only just a little bit. Donation here, a bit of volunteering there, talking to friends and family trying to get them to engage with politics a bit more, that kind of thing; small steps with the intention of continuing on and with more effort. It feels very scary actually, crossing this boundary between just receiving information and actually acting in any capacity, but it does help to feel better afterwards, at least for me. Don't know if it helps at all, or if it would work for you, or whether it's something you're already doing, but I do hope hopelessness will recede.
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Dec 15, 2019 14:17
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Tesseraction posted:The #ALLINFORABBOTT hashtag is trending, and guess which political affiliation started it off. lots of scum there but i also see labour members jumping in to support diane and call out the chuds
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Dec 15, 2019 14:21
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Shogi posted:You can meet plenty of 'punk Tory' gay lads Any date I had with a punk Tory would be perfunctory 
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Dec 15, 2019 14:27
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meet punk tory gay lads in your area now
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Dec 15, 2019 14:29
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Comrade Fakename posted:*Ronya drags the folder full of pre-written essays titled “Why Labour Should Return to Centrism After its Victory” into the recycle bin and then opens the folder named “Why Labour Should Return to Centrism After its Loss,” ready to deploy.* I like Ronya posts, even if I don't always agree with them 
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Dec 15, 2019 14:30
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