BREXIT DAY

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V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Kurtofan posted:

How did the loving second ref people manage to push their position on the manifesto ? Corbyn was too nice

the party membership were and are heavily pro-remain and labour was bleeding lots of voters to the lib dems, though most of that was in relatively safe areas in london etc

# ? Dec 15, 2019 14:50

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# ? May 22, 2024 08:39

Svensken: May 29, 2010

Atrocious Joe posted:

Didn't see this nice video by Corbyn posted.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1206126669616107521?s=20

One question I do have for UK people, is that in the US most people seem to see imperialism historically as a mistake. They support it today because they view it as necessary for the defense of the country and even beneficial to people abroad. Whenever I discuss it with people of basically any political position, no one is ever really interested in defending US foreign policy, especially if the lies of it being necessary or beneficial are exposed. No one I've talked to openly supports being an empire. Literally the big hurdle on the issue is convincing people we can actually achieve stuff like withdrawing from military bases in other countries or dismantling the CIA.

How do people respond in the UK when imperialism gets brought up?

https://youtu.be/rB5Nbp_gmgQ

# ? Dec 15, 2019 14:53

Mr Havafap: Mar 27, 2005; The wurst kind of sausage

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

All 3.7 million Lib Dem voters: I hope you gently caress yourself in the rear end with a rusty pipe and catch a combination of sepsis & tetanus. loving die.

All 864,000 Green voters: Extinction rebel your rear end into an industrial composter. loving die.

All 642,000 Brexit voters: I hope you spontaneously combust in the middle of Christmas dinner and give all your children grease fire burns from your fat rear end. loving die.

All 10 million Labour voters: Some of you are alright... don't go to Britain tomorrow.

Tories + Brexit + UKIP = 45,7%
Labour + LibDems + SNP = 47,1%

I'm starting to think the UK has an incomplete understanding of what democracy is supposed to be?

# ? Dec 15, 2019 14:56

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

nah the electoral system is what it is. if labour won with a smaller pop vote we'd be hooting here

# ? Dec 15, 2019 14:57

Sedisp: Jun 20, 2012

Atrocious Joe posted:

no one is ever really interested in defending US foreign policy, especially if the lies of it being necessary or beneficial are exposed.

Uhh. Not sure if this part is accurate? There's a pretty enormous contingent of the US that will defend Forever War to the death. Easier than admitting "Are Troops" died and fought for literally nothing.

V. Illych L. posted:

nah the electoral system is what it is. if labour won with a smaller pop vote we'd be hooting here

Irrelevant. If a bad person is murdered by an unjust system that doesn't sudden;y make the system just.

Sedisp has issued a correction as of 15:03 on Dec 15, 2019

# ? Dec 15, 2019 14:59

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

we got smashed, complaining at everyone else for us getting owned isnt very helpful. just gotta figure out how to avoid it next time

*owen smith runs into the room with his giant hog*

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:01

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

corbyn used logic and reason

https://twitter.com/irhottakes/status/1206002625935745026?s=21

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:16

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Truga posted:

this should be the only takeaway from this election imo. radicalize further, do *not* go towards the center, there lie the bodies of squirrels

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:20

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

face to three failed elections and d-double down

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:23

Grevling: Dec 18, 2016

Been seeing the take around that a big reason for the loss, and especially that many working class people voted Tory, is that people feel like the left has nothing but contempt for them, don't view them as having agency or being able to think for themselves. It seems odd that they'd instead vote for a guy whose contempt for regular people is open. But then again stuff like this

therattle posted:

There�s about as much tolerance for different viewpoints on Labour here as within Labour itself, and the same refusal to acknowledge hard truths (eg polling figures, the actual election result). The manifesto was way too overstuffed to work in a campaign (esp against ruthless but very effective Tory messaging), it went too far for most voters, and most voters don�t want a far-left government or PM.

Just seems to be saying that people are too dumb to understand anything but simple slogans.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:24

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Sedisp posted:

Uhh. Not sure if this part is accurate? There's a pretty enormous contingent of the US that will defend Forever War to the death. Easier than admitting "Are Troops" died and fought for literally nothing.

the troops i know don't really give a poo poo about defending the wars

like, you can destroy friendship and families arguing about racism or sexism, no one really gets that intense about Afghanistan though

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:26

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Atrocious Joe posted:

Didn't see this nice video by Corbyn posted.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1206126669616107521?s=20

probably should've gone in the gutter, Jezz

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:27

Gaukler: Oct 9, 2012

So forgive a humble American bumpkin but it seems like Labour had no winning move on antisemitism charges in the face of the British press. Since the issue was objectively rather small (less of an issue than the Tories have, for example), even if Corbyn had been able to jump on big transparent investigations right away, what would that have done? Since the problem is rather small, the press just would have called it a show when it didn�t expose a massive anti-Semitic conspiracy (since you can�t prove a negative and there was nothing to find). All the while cheered on by Blairites crying to the press about show trials.

It also seems to have not mattered because people actually defected over Brexit as they were drawn and quartered from both sides by LD and the Right. All the handwringing now about Corbyn�s antisemitism is the same as the media in the US taking the wrong lesson after Trump beat Hillary.

Nice preview of what the GOP and DNC will do to Bernie if he gets the nomination though.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:27

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Sedisp posted:

Look I get that I have been a jerk to you but I want you to honestly as yourself this question. If the problem is people just don't want leftism and deep down everyone just wants to shake hands in the middle why do right wingers ever win elections? They almost always run on ideological purity.

I thought I was done with this thread but that�s a fair question posed fairly. I think a lot of people do want leftism - at least some leftism. (The debate within Labour is partly about how much). Others don�t want leftism as it threatens the status quo in which they are invested. Certainly not everyone wants to meet in the middle. I think the right often wins by appealing to people�s selfishness, racism and xenophobia, and at a gut level people respond more to that than to more intellectual arguments about economics and justice. As with Republicans they use emotive arguments to speak
mostly to peoples� baser natures to vote against their own economic interests. Brexit aside (and yeah, this thread has persuaded me that it was more responsible for the loss than I first thought - it�s definitely a factor, but to me not at all the only one) Labour was unable to frame and communicate those arguments in a way which resonated with people emotionally. I think for the many, not the few was a great slogan, which they dumped. I can�t even tell you what slogan we used in this election. protect the NHS?

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:28

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

face to three failed elections and d-double down

time for a change

time for Blue Labour

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:34

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

based and blue balled

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:35

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Bulgogi Hoagie posted:

face to three failed elections and d-double down

as opposed to going back to the center and losing

the only winning move is to go further left

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:35

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

labour lost 60 seats and should therefore return to the pre corbyn platform which only cost it 97 seats

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:48

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

The only winning move is to look outside electoralism. Look back - how did Labour become the second party in the country after centuries of aristocratic rule? Because it was at the head of a parallel community and parallel support system and could point to the tangible ways it had helped people where nobody else would. We're presently looking at the collapse of the U.K. government as a service provider and safety net, and we can't trust in the public's faith in it any more. We have to build their faith in us, by offering them direct support and branding the gently caress out of it. Talking about what tone we should set in the current electoral environment is like gambling addicts squabbling over the system that'll totally let them beat the house this time, honest.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:48

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

For all the talk of this being a "historic defeat" unprecedented since the 1930s, Labour lost 97 seats in 2010 & got even lower vote percentage and the Liberal Democrats caved in to every single Tory demand under their coalition government - so even for the brief moment they were actually in power centrists completely acquiesced to the right and a Labour that ran on a continuation of New Labour ate poo poo after the 2008 recession.

All the talk of "ideological purity" from centrists really translates to "you have to accept my position, but I don't have to accept yours" - even after routine liberal failure as leaders of Labour and from the Lib Dems. The Labour party needs to get more radical and way meaner. Enough of this nice guy "high road" horseshit. Labour needs to channel the public rage if it's going to be able to destroy the Tories.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 15:50

Amphigory: Feb 6, 2005

It's just dawned on me - all the poo poo that is about to happen to the NHS is going to be spun as the brave and difficult choices needed to ensure Boris DOESN'T break his promise of not selling off the NHS

Eugh

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:02

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

this election has shown people don't give a poo poo about whatever the gently caress the centre is supposed to represent now

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:03

silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

When's the last time there was a general strike anyway

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:03

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

labour lost 60 seats and should therefore return to the pre corbyn platform which only cost it 97 seats

btw the difference here between gaining 70 seats and losing 70 is literally + or - 5% thanks to fptp and vote splitting 4 different ways so everytime someone talks about LABOR COLLAPSING UNDER CORBYN what they mean is literally doing around ~1% worse on average AND that it's only thanks to jezza for some reason

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:04

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

therattle posted:

I thought I was done with this thread but that�s a fair question posed fairly. I think a lot of people do want leftism - at least some leftism. (The debate within Labour is partly about how much). Others don�t want leftism as it threatens the status quo in which they are invested. Certainly not everyone wants to meet in the middle. I think the right often wins by appealing to people�s selfishness, racism and xenophobia, and at a gut level people respond more to that than to more intellectual arguments about economics and justice. As with Republicans they use emotive arguments to speak
mostly to peoples� baser natures to vote against their own economic interests. Brexit aside (and yeah, this thread has persuaded me that it was more responsible for the loss than I first thought - it�s definitely a factor, but to me not at all the only one) Labour was unable to frame and communicate those arguments in a way which resonated with people emotionally. I think for the many, not the few was a great slogan, which they dumped. I can�t even tell you what slogan we used in this election. protect the NHS?

It's Time For Real Change, which apparently worked well with people but was not used enough

quote:

[describing the private focus grouping]

Dominic Cummings�s �Get Brexit Done� was an extraordinarily effective campaign message for this election. While arguably not as game-changing as �Take Back Control�, we found it resonating with a large majority of the public at large, and with the overwhelming majority of all parts of the voter coalition the Tories needed to assemble - even many Conservative and Labour Remainers. The British public are simply sick of the Brexit tug-of-war, and want to move on to other pressing issues. The irony is, of course, that Brexit is far from over and done with. We will see whether this ends up damaging Johnson in the months and years to come. The Conservatives� attack lines were also highly effective. The �cost of Corbyn� attacks (�The cost of Corbyn will hit you in the pocket�) cut through well, as did the lines that �the country can�t afford the promises in Labour�s manifesto�, and that �a hung Parliament just means more dither and delay�.

Labour had many lines in this campaign. Their initial headline message, �It�s Time For Real Change�, tested brilliantly. It communicated the radicalism of the manifesto positively, connected with the strong desires for change across all voter tribes, and made clear the contrast with the Tories� offer of �more of the same�. However, it was used too infrequently and inconsistently in the campaign. Headquarters started using �On Your Side� instead after they belatedly realised the threat to the Labour Leave group; but this message was too inert to be an effective counter to �Get Brexit Done�.

What proved much more successful for Labour was the counter-attack on the NHS. Rather than bland familiar messages about Labour being �the party of the NHS� or saving the NHS, the specific threat of US-style privatisation of the health service from a post-Brexit Trump trade deal was communicated vividly and relentlessly, through leaked documents, viral videos and a swarm of movement communications. The core values statement that �Our NHS is not for sale� was so powerful that Boris Johnson started trying to reclaim it. But �Boris Johnson will sell our NHS to Donald Trump� and similar messages gained very broad and rapid agreement, as did �you can�t trust the Tories with the NHS� and �I�m worried my local hospital can�t cope�. This attack effectively disrupted the Brexit-Boris-NHS nexus of associations created through the �We send �350 million a week to the EU, let�s spend it on our NHS instead� message repeated relentlessly by Vote Leave in the 2016 referendum. We believe the NHS attack line was a major factor in Labour�s resurgence of support among its 2017 Leave voters and other key groups. Our private polling found the NHS rose in importance through the campaign, becoming a bigger issue even than Brexit among undecided voters.

But it was all too little, too late. Negative messages about Jeremy Corbyn proved overwhelmingly strong, in particular among Labour Leave and Conservative Remain voters. Regardless of the origins of these negative perceptions, and despite the party�s position strengthening through a strong campaign and massive grassroots mobilisation, this was the fatal factor in the end for Labour�s prospects in this election. While statements like �We need a new government to deliver real change� had a slight edge over �We need to re-elect the current government to get Brexit done�, more people were more worried about Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister than about a Boris Johnson majority and a hard Tory Brexit.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:08

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

V. Illych L. posted:

the party membership were and are heavily pro-remain and labour was bleeding lots of voters to the lib dems, though most of that was in relatively safe areas in london etc

Not true, Labour lost a ton of remain voters in north/midlands seats they lost. Remember that around 50% of Labour voters in places like Blyth Valley still voted Remain.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:10

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

MikeCrotch posted:

Not true, Labour lost a ton of remain voters in north/midlands seats they lost. Remember that around 50% of Labour voters in places like Blyth Valley still voted Remain.

voters isn't the same as membership

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:11

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Darth Walrus posted:

The only winning move is to look outside electoralism. Look back - how did Labour become the second party in the country after centuries of aristocratic rule? Because it was at the head of a parallel community and parallel support system and could point to the tangible ways it had helped people where nobody else would. We're presently looking at the collapse of the U.K. government as a service provider and safety net, and we can't trust in the public's faith in it any more. We have to build their faith in us, by offering them direct support and branding the gently caress out of it. Talking about what tone we should set in the current electoral environment is like gambling addicts squabbling over the system that'll totally let them beat the house this time, honest.

This is probably the only way forward. Probably the only way that ensures a future as the Tories will definitely begin to just enforce open oligarchy.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:11

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

MikeCrotch posted:

It's Time For Real Change, which apparently worked well with people but was not used enough

Good Lord. I think we agree on something.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:28

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

Mr Havafap posted:

Tories + Brexit + UKIP = 45,7%
Labour + LibDems + SNP = 47,1%

I'm starting to think the UK has an incomplete understanding of what democracy is supposed to be?

now do
Tories + Brexit + UKIP + LibDems
vs
Labour + SNP

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:30

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Bip Roberts posted:

now do
Tories + Brexit + UKIP + LibDems
vs
Labour + SNP

It�s this. Lib Dems are just Tories enablers.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:34

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Atrocious Joe posted:

voters isn't the same as membership

I was referring to the assumption that Labour was only bleeding remain voters to the Lib Dems in places like London, of course going for a second referendum/remain stance was demanded by the membership which was/is over 90% remain. Not sure how the leadership would have managed to wangle sticking with a soft brexit while still giving the membership a say on stuff

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:35

wet_goods: Jun 21, 2004; I'M BAAD!

Mr Havafap posted:

Tories + Brexit + UKIP = 45,7%
Labour + LibDems + SNP = 47,1%

I'm starting to think the UK has an incomplete understanding of what democracy is supposed to be?

Hey let me tell you about this great two party system that elects Nazis with a minority vote

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:52

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

As you have forsaken Jezz, so you have forsaken me. My curse shall lie upon your island for seven times seven generations.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:53

Pomp: Apr 3, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Jezza 4eva

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:58

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Bear Retrieval Unit posted:

As you have forsaken Jezz, so you have forsaken me. My curse shall lie upon your island for seven times seven generations.

You are the New Jerusalem and God will treat you like Israel when it rejects his prophets.

# ? Dec 15, 2019 16:59

A Gnarlacious Bro: Apr 25, 2007; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

You guys should act more normal and do normal stuff and say normal things imo, that�s what normal people like

# ? Dec 15, 2019 17:04

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Bear Retrieval Unit posted:

As you have forsaken Jezz, so you have forsaken me. My curse shall lie upon your island for seven times seven generations.

jokes on you, that's just the normal state of affairs

# ? Dec 15, 2019 17:05

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

Darth Walrus posted:

The only winning move is to look outside electoralism. Look back - how did Labour become the second party in the country after centuries of aristocratic rule? Because it was at the head of a parallel community and parallel support system and could point to the tangible ways it had helped people where nobody else would. We're presently looking at the collapse of the U.K. government as a service provider and safety net, and we can't trust in the public's faith in it any more. We have to build their faith in us, by offering them direct support and branding the gently caress out of it. Talking about what tone we should set in the current electoral environment is like gambling addicts squabbling over the system that'll totally let them beat the house this time, honest.

extremely true

# ? Dec 15, 2019 17:08

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# ? May 22, 2024 08:39

Bulgogi Hoagie: Jun 1, 2012; We

the truth is labours loss was assured as soon as they failed to find an intellectual backer with an even bigger forehead than dom cummings

# ? Dec 15, 2019 17:11

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