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watch Jess Phillips be the next Tony Blair extremely cursed snipe
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Dec 16, 2019 02:31
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Vitamin P posted:Not at all, Corbyn is legit going to be remembered as one of the greatest small-l leaders the UK has ever seen. Before Corbyn the Labour party, historically the most meaningful and looking forward most useful, force for decency and kindness in the UK was a defanged tool of capital. It was much worse than the Lib Dem party say because it wasn't just another party obediently serving the rich, it was the left wing party now obediently serving the rich (this is something scum like ummuna and berger don't grasp, blair was welcomed to the international billionaire pedophile elite not because of his policies but because his position blocked lefty policies being able to happen, by going cuk they have no similar value). as much as a bummer as this all is I've got my fingers crossed for you lot  too bad i only know any of the up and coming / possible interim party leadership from this thread and it's all v confusing
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Dec 16, 2019 02:41
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Tesseraction posted:So then why did Thatcher constantly capitulating to them and Major capitulating more to the point of laying the foundation for the Good Friday Agreement mean that Corbyn is the terrorist sympathiser and not the PM who signed a treaty with them after they bombed Brighton? Probably because Corbyn vocally supports the IRA’s goal of a United Ireland and Thatcher and Major didn’t. If we look at the quotes coming from all these older voters in the Northern constituencies in places like that datapraxis study linked earlier, Corbyn had three problems from their perspective: 1) Didn’t trust him not to mess up the economy 2) Didn’t think he shares their values as Britons 3) Didn’t trust him on Brexit All of those are reasonable positions to hold: 1) Jeremy Corbyn has had a principled position his entire life that Britain has inflicted untold harm on the rest of the world and has a duty to make it right. He’s right about this, but it’s a tough sell to British voters. 2) Last time they held power, back in the 70s, the faction in Labour that Corbyn and McDonnell were part of was actively trying to bring about full socialism and realign the UK with the USSR by collapsing the British economy in a series of escalating strikes. With the best of intentions for sure, but it’s not actually irrational for people to look at that and feel these guys might not be the best stewards of the economy. 3) Strategic ambiguity about Brexit cost votes. It’s hard to know how many more votes a firm position would have cost. My point is if you are only narrowly looking at those three things as issues, it’s not irrational to distrust Corbyn as a leader. All of us here voted Labour, I suppose, because we thought that spiralling inequality, failure to address climate change, people starving in the loving streets and so on outweighed all that plus we really, really hate the Tory party. It’s not all that surprising, though, that more people didn’t share that view.
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Dec 16, 2019 02:59
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Beefeater1980 posted:Probably because Corbyn vocally supports the IRA’s goal of a United Ireland and Thatcher and Major didn’t. Exactly. My personal issue with this is that it appeared people knew he was a tough sell and stuck with him regardless because they absolutely had to have him. Corbyn or no Labour Government for anyone was an extremely toxic hill to die on. There are too many Labour voters that want nothing to do with the full socialism ideology that Momentum and Corbyn's faction wanted; too many normal people who vote Labour because gently caress Tories and don't care about the rest of the baggage.. If they pick a new leader who is just Corbyn without the beard, we'll end up in the same situation again in 5 years time. Corbyn won't be remembered by anyone except his fans (at least for anything other than losing historically badly). Tony Benn and Michael Foot tried to move the party towards the hard left and were punished by the electorate (before the advent of fake news on facebook to blame, no less). Corbyn and McDonnell tried it a generation later and have been punished by the electorate. Labour only wins when it is running a weaker social-democratic platform. Do you want to win an election with that, or would you rather lose an election to Boris because of principles? Rakosi fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 03:19
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https://twitter.com/JamesERothwell/status/1205956669529886723 UKMT January 2020: win back trust from Northern Irish communities by building a bridge to Scotland
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Dec 16, 2019 03:24
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You can be a long way to the left of Blair without being Bennite though. Like, there’s a lot of space there, you don’t need to water everything down.
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Dec 16, 2019 03:25
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all very well and good but "electable" Labour moderates have done very little to engender trust with the membership, let alone Labour voters and the electorate in general
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Dec 16, 2019 03:29
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As an outsider I’m confused, don’t the lib dems meet the requirement of being not socialist or Tory? Why push labour right into territory the lib dems take up already?
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Dec 16, 2019 03:31
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They did do polls that suggested people were quite OK with the manifesto even if they didn't like corbyn, and the reason, I would suggest, that they didn't like corbyn has a lot to do with the fact that the labour right, the tories, and the press, spent a great deal of effort to fabricate an entirely fictional image of the man as unlikeable.Weird BIAS posted:As an outsider I’m confused, don’t the lib dems meet the requirement of being not socialist or Tory? Why push labour right into territory the lib dems take up already? I mean they vary between more tory than the tories and not quite as tory as the tories, of late. But yes they're certainly placed to be the heirs to blair right now. That is if Boris doesn't try to do it himself which uh, I'm not going to bet against just now. But some people really believe in this idea that we can run on an authoritarian middle ground shithead platform and then just magically do a load of good, and there won't be any long term consequences for that, please ignore the last 25 years of history. Other people know full well how it would go but still just want to be the ones in charge and they've decided labour is the vehicle to get them there. E: I also like that photo of sammy wilson, looks like he's about to cry lol. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 03:32
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Ideally we don't need two Lib Dem parties. Go down fighting, and open up the option of pacts with the piss diamonds if they want to do them. Compromising on the key structural issues of corporate greed for a victory with a slightly less punishing social programme than the Tories is short sighted and we know from 2010 where it ends. Also trying to pin any hurt that could have been prevented by this hypothetical watered down programme in the short term on the people who want to go further left at the expense of electability could just alienate this left. Rather than convincing the left to hold its nose, it might just drive the wedge forming several fragmented groups of people who feel talked down to by the others. I'm not certain on that last point and I've been saying just how curious I am about the leadership contest and subsequent elections that are coming and how it will be the litmus paper test of the party's colours. But there is the point I made earlier about going down fighting which is that I'd get tired of being Scrappy Doo socialism held safely at arms length by taller capitalists. Maybe in time the watered down approach is inevitable if the left doesn't so much hold its nose as just get worn out.
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Dec 16, 2019 03:48
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I think that’s right: Labour can’t be the party of the provincial working class, the metropolitan working class and cosmopolitan social liberals all at the same time without watering down, and if it has to sacrifice one of those groups IMO it should be the last one.
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Dec 16, 2019 04:03
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Honestly I really think we need to ditch the idea of party leadership. Leadership shouldn't come from the top down, but the bottom up, and if there's one thing I wish that could be taken away from the Corbyn tenure, it's that. The party is back in our hands and we get to decide on those who represent us. They are our representatives, not our leaders, and they are only there by dint of them doing what the membership wants. Let's see if we can be slowly conned out of that again as time goes on. Dangers come from that we are so atomised by our life under this system that we disperse and lose all of our power. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 04:32
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Yeah I think I've said a lot of unreasonable if not delusional things in the thread like posting the tweet about 65 of the constituencies in the exit poll being too close to call as some kind of false hope about the result. Also spitefully saying I want to survive just to watch old people die. I'm starting to see that the extent I've invested myself in the socialist project is actually making me a bit nasty and delusional. That's not even to begin on my darkest moments in the discord. What I need to take out of this is that I personally need to become a better person and I don't think imaginings of a state that wrests control from our opponents is going to do that. The world has clearly shown it's not fair and it's not becoming fair so I need to adapt myself to that and stop being such a loser before I can make any attempt at really helping others. For me the next step is to try again to shake depression, get a loving job, and just be really loving honest with myself. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 04:33
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Azza Bamboo posted:Yeah I think I've said a lot of unreasonable if not delusional things in the thread like posting the tweet about 65 of the constituencies in the exit poll being too close to call as some kind of false hope about the result. Also spitefully saying I want to survive just to watch old people die. I'm starting to see that the extent I've invested myself in the socialist project is actually making me a bit nasty and delusional. That's not even to begin on my darkest moments in the discord. What I need to take out of this is that I personally need to become a better person and I don't think imaginings of a state that wrests control from our opponents is going to do that. The world has clearly shown it's not fair and it's not becoming fair so I need to adapt myself to that and stop being such a loser before I can make any attempt at really helping others. Honestly, I feel that nowadays a lot of people do actually read what people on different sides of the political spectrum really think about the rest of society. Places like, this where the thread is predominantly posters from the most left part of one particular party, provide a pretty clear insight into how toxic discussion can get when the public front is stripped away or the curtain is peered behind. Gimmicks and tropes like the "loony left" don't get invented entirely in a vacuum. The Tory right and Labour left are extremely cognisant of how toxic, hyperbolic and retrograde the language and vitriol between the two sides is behind 'closed doors', and both weaponize it in the same way to relegate their opponents of their humanity; thereby justifying whatever is said or done. The country is becoming vicious and every side feels completely justified in their own way. There is no give. As far as the next election, I would much, much rather have a Tony Blair Labour government than a Tory government, despite all the faults of the former. I think between what happened now and in the 70's the hard left in Labour should be put to bed as unelectable. This country just isn't there yet. Better to do what the response was in the 70's and promote it more locally in order to help local people, while the national Labour government is at least not Tory. This is unsolicited advice, but the think that helped me most with my depression was exercise and writing a kind of gratitude diary where every night I write at least one thing from the day I was honestly grateful for. There was an interesting Youtube video I saw about how more gratitude in our lives predisposes the brain to more positive thinking, or something. Not sure, but it worked for me even if it felt a bit silly sometimes. Rakosi fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 05:02
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I think I'm in a place where I need the support of medicine but I'll also start a journal and get back into the basic core of my old exercise routine. And as an entry into gratitude: thanks dude.
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Dec 16, 2019 05:08
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Things are poo poo, but I'm off to the foodbank next week to deliver things they are running low on, and later that week we're taking packages out to the homeless of Leeds. MY WIFE is awesome and supportive. It's also good to see a real appetite for getting good socialism done that isn't in the context of 5 weeks of election campaigning. Anyway, this made me laugh which was nice https://twitter.com/WeNeedIndyNow/status/1206190919936024578
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Dec 16, 2019 05:09
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So that's one Green New Deal down, in a country with enough eyes on it to shape opinions among much bigger polluters. Are there any other countries where it will be tried electorally over the next 6-12 months? Realistic chance of it happening in the US?
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Dec 16, 2019 05:09
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I don't see how the US dems would look at us and think "yeah a promise like Labour's is what we need" I may even go so far as to suggest this result here puts to bed the nonsense that is "Bernie would have won"
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Dec 16, 2019 05:15
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Azza Bamboo posted:I think I'm in a place where I need the support of medicine but I'll also start a journal and get back into the basic core of my old exercise routine. And as an entry into gratitude: thanks dude. This is actually really good advice; something about consciously feeling gratitude opens the mind up and just dispels depression. Anyway, great to hear that you’re getting back into exercise; you’ll get on top of things soon. For all that we’re a fractious group of angry socialists here, I think the thread does solidarity well so: good luck, comrade.
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Dec 16, 2019 05:35
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Azza Bamboo posted:I don't see how the US dems would look at us and think "yeah a promise like Labour's is what we need" I may even go so far as to suggest this result here puts to bed the nonsense that is "Bernie would have won" Bernie will beat the current field and even superdonors can’t be seen with Bloomberg,
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Dec 16, 2019 05:41
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Azza Bamboo posted:I don't see how the US dems would look at us and think "yeah a promise like Labour's is what we need" I may even go so far as to suggest this result here puts to bed the nonsense that is "Bernie would have won" It sucks when you experience cataclysmic defeat but we're gonna win. You will win too someday else.
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Dec 16, 2019 05:52
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Rakosi posted:This is unsolicited advice, but the think that helped me most with my depression was exercise and writing a kind of gratitude diary where every night I write at least one thing from the day I was honestly grateful for. There was an interesting Youtube video I saw about how more gratitude in our lives predisposes the brain to more positive thinking, or something. Not sure, but it worked for me even if it felt a bit silly sometimes. This is from the latest Kurtzgesagt video about rewiring your own brain to fix dissatisfaction
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Dec 16, 2019 06:07
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Azza Bamboo posted:I don't see how the US dems would look at us and think "yeah a promise like Labour's is what we need" I may even go so far as to suggest this result here puts to bed the nonsense that is "Bernie would have won" The US and the UK are pretty different beasts politically. In the 2016 election between Clinton and Trump - Clinton lost 3 (I think - Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania) key states by a very small number of votes. States that Bernie won in the primary because he didn't have Clintons baggage (Nafta - however fair that is to put on Bill's wife). Bernie absofuckinglutely would have won.
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Dec 16, 2019 06:15
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ThomasPaine posted:I mean when someone who I know is from NI and lived through that poo poo tells me my take on NI is kinda dumb and I've got it wrong I'm at least going to pause for a second i know lots of people from NI who lived through the poo poo who would agree with you though, so whatever. Azza Bamboo posted:I don't see how the US dems would look at us and think "yeah a promise like Labour's is what we need" I may even go so far as to suggest this result here puts to bed the nonsense that is "Bernie would have won" the US doesn't have a Brexit problem and Bernie is the strongest candidate by far Coohoolin fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 06:15
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All this because just because you chose the wrong Milliband
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Dec 16, 2019 06:23
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If that means he's winning the candidacy then I guess I'll retract my statement and take the science approach of seeing what happens. It'd be great to have a President that would likely do his damned best to preserve the NHS in any trade deals.
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Dec 16, 2019 06:30
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Vitamin P posted:Not at all, Corbyn is legit going to be remembered as one of the greatest small-l leaders the UK has ever seen. Before Corbyn the Labour party, historically the most meaningful and looking forward most useful, force for decency and kindness in the UK was a defanged tool of capital. It was much worse than the Lib Dem party say because it wasn't just another party obediently serving the rich, it was the left wing party now obediently serving the rich (this is something scum like ummuna and berger don't grasp, blair was welcomed to the international billionaire pedophile elite not because of his policies but because his position blocked lefty policies being able to happen, by going cuk they have no similar value). Are you high? No one remembers the opposition.
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Dec 16, 2019 06:50
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Azza Bamboo posted:If that means he's winning the candidacy then I guess I'll retract my statement and take the science approach of seeing what happens. It'd be great to have a President that would likely do his damned best to preserve the NHS in any trade deals. I've got no idea if he'll win the primary this time around. I was just talking about 2016. I hope he wins this time. It might indeed help the U K out.
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Dec 16, 2019 06:53
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MrFlibble posted:The US and the UK are pretty different beasts politically. I think it's kinda fair because she absolutely espoused the same kind of policies, she's of the same style of politics as Blair.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:01
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Blair was a tall man with charisma though. Clinton would have been like running Cherie instead of Gordon Brown.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:14
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I like how when Brown Moses predicted the outcome of the vote he was screamed out of the thread but he turned out to be completely right and the people who did that are losing their poo poo.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:21
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I’ve found abandoning all hope to be quite cathartic tbh It’ll be a Trump v Warren election and trump will win
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Dec 16, 2019 07:21
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AGGGGH BEES posted:I like how when Brown Moses predicted the outcome of the vote he was screamed out of the thread but he turned out to be completely right and the people who did that are losing their poo poo. Brown Moses is a soulless american asset, i'd rather be wrong than familiar with the taste of shoe leather
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Dec 16, 2019 07:24
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But legitimately this thread does have an issue with people expressing contrary views/fears, ranging from just outright dismissing people saying that maybe things aren’t going as well as they think, or outright calling them ‘black pulled’ or melts. Not referring to racists or fash obviously.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:26
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Pesmerga posted:But legitimately this thread does have an issue with people expressing contrary views/fears, ranging from just outright dismissing people saying that maybe things aren’t going as well as they think, or outright calling them ‘black pulled’ or melts. It's kind of different in election season though. Back when Boris was announced as conservative leader I made a bunch of posts (accurately) predicting the downfall of our society and I wasn't chased out of the thread. When its an election and you can't change reality as it stands things are different. Now that we have five years of wading through the poo poo I expect there will be lots of discussion on the best way forward. Personally, i'm probably done caring. Hope is dumb, it's best to just assume the worst and plan accordingly.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:29
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MrFlibble posted:It's kind of different in election season though. Back when Boris was announced as conservative leader I made a bunch of posts (accurately) predicting the downfall of our society and I wasn't chased out of the thread. When its an election and you can't change reality as it stands things are different. I was saying that I think the wheels were coming off and was told to gently caress off for being a gimmick. We need to engage a bit more with contrasting viewpoints (again that aren’t racist/fascist/etc), particularly when it comes to outright dismissing what people are seeing/experiencing/even polling, because it’s not fitting the narrative.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:35
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Predicting the Tory win is fine so long as the Tories win and you're a socialist true Labour Scotsman. It's bad if you predict the Tories winning and you're Tory lite, piss Tory or just Tory. Tartan Tories are complicated so we don't talk about that. It's a blue scare ITT where anyone may secretly be Tory so you have to watch out. Beware the Tory conspirators and report any suspicious activity to your Twitter feeds.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:40
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Pesmerga posted:I was saying that I think the wheels were coming off and was told to gently caress off for being a gimmick. We need to engage a bit more with contrasting viewpoints (again that aren’t racist/fascist/etc), particularly when it comes to outright dismissing what people are seeing/experiencing/even polling, because it’s not fitting the narrative. A lot of the regulars here communicate with each other outside this thread on other platforms like Discord or IRC or whatever, and some are fairly familiar with each others person lives, which makes it very cliquey in nature. More than that though, it becomes problematic when they're all reinforcing each others ideas in an echo chamber, so that they get genuinely surprised by this election result (which wasn't that surprising for many people). A few posters wondered about the echo-chamberness in the immediate aftermath of the exit poll and maybe they've taken a break, which is probably a good idea. This thread has never been one that has had its finger on the pulse of the whole of British politics; it's the United Kingdom Marxist Thread.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:41
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Rakosi posted:
Show me when we've claimed to?
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Dec 16, 2019 07:45
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Rakosi posted:A lot of the regulars here communicate with each other outside this thread on other platforms like Discord or IRC or whatever, and some are fairly familiar with each others person lives, which makes it very cliquey in nature. More than that though, it becomes problematic when they're all reinforcing each others ideas in an echo chamber, so that they get genuinely surprised by this election result (which wasn't that surprising for many people). A few posters wondered about the echo-chamberness in the immediate aftermath of the exit poll and maybe they've taken a break, which is probably a good idea. I don't post here because I dislike Corbyn but I can't be hosed dealing with the aggro you get here for that. The behaviour enhances the echo chamber.
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