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Rakosi posted:
As one of those fools who was surprised, my DMs are open if people know a more broad online community to talk politics within. I'm not leaving this community because the people here have been accommodating and I'm thankful to be here but I desperately need to breathe some fresh air into my political awareness or at least have some balance.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:51
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Vitamin P posted:Not at all, Corbyn is legit going to be remembered as one of the greatest small-l leaders the UK has ever seen. Before Corbyn the Labour party, historically the most meaningful and looking forward most useful, force for decency and kindness in the UK was a defanged tool of capital. It was much worse than the Lib Dem party say because it wasn't just another party obediently serving the rich, it was the left wing party now obediently serving the rich (this is something scum like ummuna and berger don't grasp, blair was welcomed to the international billionaire pedophile elite not because of his policies but because his position blocked lefty policies being able to happen, by going cuk they have no similar value). Like this, you don't have a vehicle to influence the power structure, because Corbyn has kicked the wheels off with a loving -60 approval rating, and the loss of core labour seats that are getting buttered up by Johnson as we speak. His leadership has taken labour from defeat to crippling defeat. At best, that is what he will be remembered for.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:51
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Eh, as others have said, the Right has the entire Uk media as their echo chamber; we have this thread. It's hardly excessive.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:53
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Antinumeric posted:Like this, you don't have a vehicle to influence the power structure, because Corbyn has kicked the wheels off with a loving -60 approval rating, and the loss of core labour seats that are getting buttered up by Johnson as we speak. On the other hand, it was nice to have a reason to vote Labour other than they're not the conservatives. And I'm glad it happened - we saw how seriously the Labour party played fair when Corbyn started out leading so I no longer have any desire to vote for Labour out of solidarity or unity or any of that bullshit. If Labour aren't representing my interests next election, I'll stay home guilt free.
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Dec 16, 2019 07:55
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Pistol_Pete posted:Eh, as others have said, the Right has the entire Uk media as their echo chamber; we have this thread. It's hardly excessive. Who cares that the right have their echo chambers, what about left wing ones that narrow views and cast out allies in the name of ideological purity. Echo chambers are bad.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:03
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When I first joined SA I thought UKMT literally meant UK Main Thread. This thread is mostly about the Labour left and socialism in general however and there are a lot of SA posters who dont want the aggro the comes with disagreeing with Corbyn or other related stuff. The far left of Labour own this thread like Momentum own Labour and thats okay. Just turns off other posters and echo chambers are bad for reasons other than cliques, thats all I’m saying.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:04
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It’s the UK megathread, Marxism Thread is just because everyone who posts on SA is reasonably well educated or curious enough to get to the same place as if they were, and intelligent well educated people trend left wing for the obvious reason that that’s where the data takes you if you think about it at all. The thread is weirdly cultish at times but unlike other echo chambers, most posters make an effort to answer questions raised in good faith as well as they can. It’s a wild mix of backgrounds though because we have everyone from the severely disadvantaged just-coping-on-the-poverty-line to the fringes of the 1%. I think it’s a good thing about this thread that we can, usually, unite that very broad group around the thread centre of gravity, wherever that is from time to time.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:11
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This thread banished it's best poster, Flaps, and he has had his redemption
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Dec 16, 2019 08:15
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Azza Bamboo posted:As one of those fools who was surprised, my DMs are open if people know a more broad online community to talk politics within. I'm not leaving this community because the people here have been accommodating and I'm thankful to be here but I desperately need to breathe some fresh air into my political awareness or at least have some balance. If you find one, let me know! You'd think that the Guardian might be an option but it's utterly dreadful, despite being moderated. Take this article here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/15/labour-revival-change-community-activists-plymouth It's a good, thoughtful article, that you'd think would spark a useful debate btl. This is the top-rated comment for the article: quote:I think the key is that the metropolitan elites who now vote for Labour and their hard left (white middle class) representatives in the party don't really care about what is called the 'working class'. In essence they focus on the BAME segment and immigrants because these are what self-seeking middle class people with a 'social conscience' like harping on about and certain foreign policy issues (love Iran and Venezuela, hate Israel and Saudi Arabia). The problem is that in reality they look down on those less fortunate than themselves living in estates and holding less 'progressive' views (or in the case of foreign policy have no interest in at all) more akin in practice to the views of the conservatives, referring to them as racists and bigots. Its not really a surprise that Labour has lost connection with its heartland - its ideas simply reflect the theoretical views of privileged middle class elites who don't really want to be in power (and actually increase their own taxes), they simply want to take the moral high ground. The following comments are all similar: just frothing abuse of "loonie lefties" and "Marxist cabals". The ukmt is actually highly restrained by comparison. Rakosi posted:When I first joined SA I thought UKMT literally meant UK Main Thread. This thread is mostly about the Labour left and socialism in general however and there are a lot of SA posters who dont want the aggro the comes with disagreeing with Corbyn or other related stuff. The far left of Labour own this thread like Momentum own Labour and thats okay. Just turns off other posters and echo chambers are bad for reasons other than cliques, thats all I’m saying. There's a Uk chat thread in byob, if you feel the need to discuss how many shits you've taken today or what Tesco's meal deal you're thinking about for lunch. Or you could start a sensible centrist politics uk chat thread and see how that goes?
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Dec 16, 2019 08:15
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Rakosi posted:When I first joined SA I thought UKMT literally meant UK Main Thread. This thread is mostly about the Labour left and socialism in general however and there are a lot of SA posters who dont want the aggro the comes with disagreeing with Corbyn or other related stuff. The far left of Labour own this thread like Momentum own Labour and thats okay. Just turns off other posters and echo chambers are bad for reasons other than cliques, thats all I’m saying. It once stood for UK mega-thread. Until ideological purity was obtained.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:27
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Agree wholeheartedly, if you want to hear the echoes of the mainstream press' attack lines reverberating in your ears I hear Reddit is a cool and good site my sir, le bacon epic win etc, but there is a reason people post here. The format makes effortposting a lot easier, and centrist dullards who in the press are free to spout garbage at an audience that has no real right of reply, have simply lost a lot of their arguments here.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:33
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Ideological purity = disagreeing with a Very Smart Genocide Rationaliser who wins awards don't you know, don't talk back prole
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Dec 16, 2019 08:34
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Mugsbaloney posted:Ideological purity = disagreeing with a Very Smart Genocide Rationaliser who wins awards don't you know, don't talk back prole Oooooor, maybe when people say that they don’t think people are quite as enamoured with corbyn as they think they are, and that chanting crowds may not be representative of general public opinion, consider it?
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Dec 16, 2019 08:42
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Big big lols at all these people who won't post here because ideological purity tests. We've had a ton of centrist around here post and every one of them that has stuck around despite someone posting mean words at them is a good and valued poster. Maybe it is the centrist who are.. Snowflakes?? Don't be a racist poo poo head and don't storm off when people who disagree with you call you an idiot and you can post here as much as you, I promise. There are no UKMT gulags. Pesmerga posted:Oooooor, maybe when people say that they don’t think people are quite as enamoured with corbyn as they think they are, and that chanting crowds may not be representative of general public opinion, consider it? Look dude, you can make the point that the thread as a pretty unified view of socialism and how much it's needed, but what you're asking for here is a)  and b) that everyone says 'I may not agree with your view but it's still valid and I respect you' or something? Like, if someone disagrees they're gonna say so and it sounds like you want a centrist echo chamber. The reason people told you to stop posting back then was because you absolutely wouldn't engage with anyone and it looked like you were spiralling hard. I'm in exactly the same boat as your wife, so I get it, but you gotta realise people will still disagree with you about this stuff? We were wrong about the election, but that doesn't mean this place needs to be a centrist echo chamber now.
Miftan fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 08:43
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Miftan posted:Big big lols at all these people who won't post here because ideological purity tests. We've had a ton of centrist around here post and every one of them that has stuck around despite someone posting mean words at them is a good and valued poster. Maybe it is the centrist who are.. Snowflakes?? I was focusing more on the echo chamber effect, and when people brought in contrary opinions being dismissed out of hand. I gave some examples of my canvassing in the North East, totally demoralised as many people were unhappy with Corbyn and Brexit (both leavers who wanted to leave, and EU citizens and their relatives feeling completely screwed over by his approach), and I was told that being concerned was just ‘my gimmick’.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:45
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it was only a week ago that speculating ITT that Corbyn might be defeated and trigger a succession race was a blackpilling Tory plot to depress Labour canvassers
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Dec 16, 2019 08:47
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MrFlibble posted:Brown Moses is a soulless american asset, i'd rather be wrong than familiar with the taste of shoe leather now you can be both 
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Dec 16, 2019 08:47
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Pesmerga posted:I was focusing more on the echo chamber effect, and when people brought in contrary opinions being dismissed out of hand. I gave some examples of my canvassing in the North East, totally demoralised as many people were unhappy with Corbyn and Brexit (both leavers who wanted to leave, and EU citizens and their relatives feeling completely screwed over by his approach), and I was told that being concerned was just ‘my gimmick’. Edited a response into the post above. Being concerned wasn't your gimmick - being crazy depressed and stressed was. I hope you're doing better regardless of the result because I do quite like you and I have a lot of sympathy for your situation because as I said I'm in the same boat.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:48
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Miftan posted:Edited a response into the post above. Being concerned wasn't your gimmick - being crazy depressed and stressed was. I hope you're doing better regardless of the result because I do quite like you and I have a lot of sympathy for your situation because as I said I'm in the same boat. Well I’m not crazy stressed anymore, because the reason I was kind of occurred. But it was equally my negative experiences campaigning that were also considered just my typical response. There’s also a thread thing about responding to people’s stress and anxiety based on who they are, but that’s a whole other thing. Anyway, on the other, after getting ‘jokey’ when are you going back comments from a student on Friday, my wife has no intention of staying here any longer than she has to.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:51
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Come the recession I am going eat anyone with a labour handle on twitter who has said “well I’m relatively comfortable so I will be ok” and “we will keep on fighting together” Thoughts and loving prayers.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:53
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Do we really have to interrupt serious discussions of like, what are our tactics going forward, what is the most useful way to support vulnerable people etc with "Yeah but I saw you use the word melt, Marxist hivemind ITT" on every single new page
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Dec 16, 2019 08:53
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Pesmerga posted:Oooooor, maybe when people say that they don’t think people are quite as enamoured with corbyn as they think they are, and that chanting crowds may not be representative of general public opinion, consider it? I'm sorry the thread wasn't able to be what you wanted it to be? I'm sorry you encountered some opinions that turned out to be wrong? There are lots of places where you can be protected from that type of experience, if that's really what you want.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:55
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^ exactly the arrogance of opinion that leaves you all scratching your heads about how Corbyn could've lost. Okay, that's just slapfighting so let me explain, and you all can show me that you can engage in good faith with people who don't agree with you as someone just said. Beefeater1980 posted:It's the UK megathread, Marxism Thread is just because everyone who posts on SA is reasonably well educated or curious enough to get to the same place as if they were, and intelligent well educated people trend left wing for the obvious reason that that's where the data takes you if you think about it at all. I agree. Socialism is the place where data takes you. It, however, has nothing to do with intelligence. Is it intelligent to stick with a leader who was consistently polling as historically unpopular? Is it intelligent to treat the electorate as if they're idiots by stuffing full a manifesto with ideas that so plainly came across as random bribes? Is it intelligent to deflect all criticisms as sourced in external third party corruption and propaganda, ignoring many people who had very good rational and/or emotional reasons for not supporting Corbyn's Labour? Is it intelligent to not realise that an unelectable idea is fundamentally indistinguishable from no idea at all, regardless of how moral the intention of it was? The reason why I sometimes have used "university student politicians" as a derogatory in this thread is not because those activists don't do their research or don't know what they're talking about, it's because their lack of experience in or denial of the way the real world works shreds confidence in their pragmatism. Momentum and Corbyn have gifted Boris 5 years, and many people are very and fairly angry when they see the same people blaming Lib Dems for splitting key votes, or blaming it on a racist electorate, as if they have no capacity for introspection at all. You don't choose your electorate, they choose you. You don't have a socialist electorate yet, so stop trying to elect socialists. The noble and ideological struggle that Momentum activists fantasise about is going to end with many more Tory governments and deaths before it finally works, a generation from now. The best you can hope for going forward is reverting to a kind of Labour you would all no doubt be disgusted in, and sneaking one or two key Socialist agendas, gradually, into each queen's speech, whilst letting the Blairites do their best at not being Tories. That's if you haven't already fostered a hard left Labour base that would abandon the party and split off if that were to happen; then syphon votes from Labour ala other minority parties while the toffs can't believe their luck over how many pigs they get to gently caress. Go local, at the council level. That is the way forward for socialism in the UK.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:55
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ronya posted:it was only a week ago that speculating ITT that Corbyn might be defeated and trigger a succession race was a blackpilling Tory plot to depress Labour canvassers Some humans like feeling hope and not being depressed while they're fighting a GE for a cause they believe in, Robokeynes Pesmerga posted:Well I’m not crazy stressed anymore, because the reason I was kind of occurred. But it was equally my negative experiences campaigning that were also considered just my typical response. There’s also a thread thing about responding to people’s stress and anxiety based on who they are, but that’s a whole other thing. You're probably right on the first part but I'd point out that treating people based on context and past experiences isn't wild. On the second point that really sucks and I do feel hard for you guys. I hope you land on your feet whatever you end up doing. <3 Miftan fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 08:55
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bionic vapour boy posted:Do we really have to interrupt serious discussions of like, what are our tactics going forward, what is the most useful way to support vulnerable people etc with "Yeah but I saw you use the word melt, Marxist hivemind ITT" on every single new page It's really important to some people that they do not experience disagreement
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Dec 16, 2019 08:56
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Skipping 2,000 posts to say I'm out for a while. News, media, current events - I'm done, at least for now. I hope to come back but things change and just in case I don't I need to thank everyone that posts in here for helping me be a better person and think better thoughts about other people. I know I was never that important to the thread, but you guys were important to me. Stay safe everyone.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:57
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Mugsbaloney posted:It's really important to some people that they do not experience disagreement It’s not about disagreement, it’s about refusal to engage. But if your basics argument is ‘echo chamber is good’, particularly when a big thing in this thread after was ‘how could it have gone so wrong?’, then more power to you I guess.
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Dec 16, 2019 08:58
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*mutters about how as a vulnerable person the only thing you can actually do is riot and anything else is just 
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Dec 16, 2019 08:58
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Reminder: We're talking about Con getting 43% of the votes vs Labour getting 32%. This isn't exactly SOCIALISTS KILLED THE LABOUR PARTY NO SEATS NO VOTES NO HOPE  territory.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:00
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Is it just me but what about Corbyn was so bad according to his detractors, because I can't see it. Am I in denial? As I see it, he was totally bodied and hounded in the press for years and years, and apparently that worked. I had hoped it didn't, I thought it hadn't and that the power of the traditional media was broken. But no it worked and people did not like Corbyn to a greater extent than I thought. So I understand why he is not liked in greater society. But putting that aside, why do some posters here dislike him still? Because I assume most here realize the media portrayal of him is not remotely real or representative of Corbyn. I can only see that his policies were too left wing for you.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:00
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There’s an interesting argument developing along the lines of strategic ambiguity being good to begin with, but the longer it went on, the more it bred distrust and really hammered the perception of Corbyn as being honest and straightforward in his politics.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:01
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People have to get their "told you so" responses out of their system. Ignore the fact that this thread was also a place where active recruitment for campaigning was happening. Yes, we were being overly optimistic, because wallowing in the grim reality of how small our chances always were doesn't put boots on doorsteps. The result of optimism was that 10 million people voted Labour. It wasn't enough. Whatever strategic shift could have made a difference was not in the hands of anyone in this thread. I'm not exactly sure what is being achieved by saying, essentially, "I told you Corbyn was unpopular", that is substantially different from the Tory ghouls gloating on twitter. If that's the company you want to keep, knock yourselves out.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:03
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Pesmerga posted:It’s not about disagreement, it’s about refusal to engage. But if your basics argument is ‘echo chamber is good’, particularly when a big thing in this thread after was ‘how could it have gone so wrong?’, then more power to you I guess. Refusal to engage? How about characterising my argument as "echo chamber is good". Would you call that engaging? Dopamine can be found on Reddit, go get your fix there instead
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Dec 16, 2019 09:03
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Pesmerga posted:There’s an interesting argument developing along the lines of strategic ambiguity being good to begin with, but the longer it went on, the more it bred distrust and really hammered the perception of Corbyn as being honest and straightforward in his politics. I always see him as straight forward lexiteer tbh. The 2nd referendum stuff and remainer stuff smacked of him not being true to his own values. But then again he had given that power away to the membership.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:04
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Pesmerga posted:There’s an interesting argument developing along the lines of strategic ambiguity being good to begin with, but the longer it went on, the more it bred distrust and really hammered the perception of Corbyn as being honest and straightforward in his politics. That's probably a correct analysis in hindsight, but I'm not sure any other option would have worked out better to them if you assume that the lib dems wouldn't coalition with Corbyn Labour. I think the second part is a decent assumption. Moving on, I'm not going to vote for Jessflaps as leader because fundamentally I don't trust her to deliver policies I'd like to see. I'd rather elect someone who believes in good things who can lean right a bit if we assume that's a good strategy (and that's a massive loving if)
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Dec 16, 2019 09:05
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Tarnop posted:People have to get their "told you so" responses out of their system. Figuring out where to go next, what may have gone wrong that led to this result, and organising for next time maybe. Understanding why the good messaging was getting lost on the doorstep, particularly in parts of the North East, rather than being told you’re ‘blackpilling’ when the negative encounters are being discussed. Planning for the future either inside or out of the Labour Party will require us to figure out how to proceed, particularly in a hostile media environment. Because yes it is, but just constantly talking about that isn’t going to help either.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:05
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His Divine Shadow posted:I always see him as straight forward lexiteer tbh. The 2nd referendum stuff and remainer stuff smacked of him not being true to his own values. But then again he had given that power away to the membership. But then there was a certain selectiveness in what aspects of conference he’d take on board, like the stuff on immigration. Miftan posted:That's probably a correct analysis in hindsight, but I'm not sure any other option would have worked out better to them if you assume that the lib dems wouldn't coalition with Corbyn Labour. I think the second part is a decent assumption. I’d be tempted to vote for Angela Rayner, I think RLB would be seen too much as a continuity candidate. Although the well is so throughly poisoned by the antisemitism debate and John Mann deciding to be an external wrecker than I’m not sure how any leader can respond. Edit and again I think it shows the dangers of triangulation when you hold yourself as not being that kind of operator. Too lexity for many in the cities or with friends and family impacted, too remainy for the nationalist contingent. Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 09:08
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learnincurve posted:*mutters about how as a vulnerable person the only thing you can actually do is riot and anything else is just I don't think I agree (as an also vulnerable person!) Like I'm not out to pull some centrist wank about how Smashing Bad but if there's no alternative structures being put in place what happens once the fires are out? There's been discussions in this thread about how to seize upon the groundswell of people who were out canvassing, how to use those boots on the ground, but every tenth post is someone fully mad that we've called tory voters at large racist pricks.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:11
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Miftan posted:Some humans like feeling hope and not being depressed while they're fighting a GE for a cause they believe in, Robokeynes there probably should be a thread that is a safe space for people who are actually suicidal if they have to contemplate the possibility of being defeated what's funny is that c-spam ukpol is also a rabbithole of its very special kind - tons of US tankies
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Dec 16, 2019 09:12
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Pesmerga posted:I’d be tempted to vote for Angela Rayner, I think RLB would be seen too much as a continuity candidate. Although the well is so throughly poisoned by the antisemitism debate and John Mann deciding to be an external wrecker than I’m not sure how any leader can respond. I look forward to your 2024 opus about how you always knew Angela Rayner was unelectable.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:16
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