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Beefeater1980 posted:I think that’s right: Labour can’t be the party of the provincial working class, the metropolitan working class and cosmopolitan social liberals all at the same time without watering down, and if it has to sacrifice one of those groups IMO it should be the last one. Can't be for all these; why not? Honest question
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Dec 16, 2019 09:18
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I think a problem with activists on social media generally was sampling - people posting about canvassing etc were likely heavily from Labour-held areas because that's where the largest activist base exists, which means perspectives from, say, the North East (or, for me, South West rural, not that it was going to go Labour anyway) are outliers and seen as not representative, so when we run into person after person undecided because they don't like the leadership it doesn't have resonance with the group, which then leads to not posting those experiences Also at that point everything was probably hosed anyway due to the general environment and leadership decisions, so not like it matters - it would have been useful to have these perspectives from the doorstep a year ago, 9 months ago, 6 months ago, regularly checking to see what's getting through and what's an issue
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Dec 16, 2019 09:19
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Pesmerga posted:But then there was a certain selectiveness in what aspects of conference he’d take on board, like the stuff on immigration. I think currently I'd be happy with RLB, Rayner or Butler, but I've not done much digging beyond initial impressions yet. ronya posted:there probably should be a thread that is a safe space for people who are actually suicidal if they have to contemplate the possibility of being defeated Thanks for proving my Robokeynes point. There is a space between suicidal and ultra enlightened emotionless politics and some people like being in that emotional space (especially during a GE where a lot of this thread was volunteering) . I know that thr concept of emotions might be difficult for you sometimes but I hope you'll look it up in the dictionary or something.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:20
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jaete posted:Can't be for all these; why not? Honest question They want different things and even if they want the same things they need to be messaged to in a different way.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:22
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jaete posted:Can't be for all these; why not? Honest question let's call it "faith, flag, and country" questions...
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Dec 16, 2019 09:22
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I think the leadership should make RLB appear to be the continuity candidate as much as possible. It'd be to cruelly offer her as a sacrifice, burn her as an effigy to all that was hated about this campaign. Then slide in a leftist candidate who can address the concerns of snobbery, elitism and university socialism. The risk with Rayner is not that the press get nasty about her background. That'd be a mistake. The risk is that they construct a narrative in which the Labour party is accused of using her story to characterise the voters the party is trying to reach. Such a narrative allows the press to both criticise her background and tout her views as being elitist even with her background.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:25
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Also if we have a constituency based system, have that actually mean something. The amount of people telling me that the only time they ever saw their MP or that they seemed to engage with their constituents was around election time. That combined with failings of local government (both related to corruption and to the collapse of their resources and ability to provide) meant that there was already antipathy built in to relations with Labour regardless of Corbyn. The policies didn’t resonate either - a lot more needs to be done to change the mindset regarding public expenditure, as the general discourse of ‘just free stuff but who will pay for it’ and ‘fantasy economics’ were also not uncommon.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:29
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Azza Bamboo posted:I think the leadership should make RLB appear to be the continuity candidate as much as possible. It'd be to cruelly offer her as a sacrifice, burn her as an effigy to all that was hated about this campaign. Every leader with a leftist policy platform is gonna get smeared. I think smearing Rayner for her background is a mistake for the media like you said, more likely they'll go for the Corbyn association because she was on his front bench. I think the second narrative you mentioned being taken with Rayner would be hard to pull off, to be honest. It relies on there being a large segment of people who look down on everyone who isn't as successful as them while still considering themselves the true "working class"... Oh.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:30
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Azza Bamboo posted:The risk with Rayner is not that the press get nasty about her background. That'd be a mistake. The risk is that they construct a narrative in which the Labour party is accused of using her story to characterise the voters the party is trying to reach. Such a narrative allows the press to both criticise her background and tout her views as being elitist even with her background.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:31
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Or get someone who can triangulate and bullshit with the best of them, who looks like the sort of centrist that the papers might accept, who then comes out with a rabid socialist agenda after the election.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:33
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The smart thing to do would be to elect an acting leader to oversee a root rethink of the party; spending time repairing wounds and disentangling the party from problematic future media snipes like antisemitism. Boris has 5 years now, so Labour can spend several months purging itself of political baggage that will politically harm future leaders if inherited. Less idealism, more pragmatism. If you want to put the majority of the blame of Corbyn's unpopularity onto the media (which I disagree with), you need to spend time being seen as 'fixing' all of its issues with Labour. Momentum, like a too frisky dog, needs to be taken to the vet and have its balls cut off so it doesn't ruin Labour's public image by humping the leg of the next leader when the electorate comes a-peekin'.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:34
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The reason people itt had so much hope about this election was because of how dramatically Labour beat the odds in 2017. A lot of people were riding on repeating that experience this year which obviously didn't work out, but plenty of people who are crowing about the left being wrong in 2019 absolutely ate poo poo in 2017. As for the problems of Corbyn being leader again he was 2 and half years from the biggest gain in Labour vote since 1945 and beloved by the membership. There was never an opportunity to replace him, especially as that would have given the right the chance to get back in. Also people who are saying we need a Blair more than we need a Tory government are missing that fact that Blairism and lovely New Labour mismanagement are why voters in places like Blyth Valley and Bolsover have been slipping to the Tories for years - it just so happens 2019 was the point they flipped.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:35
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Rakosi posted:^ exactly the arrogance of opinion that leaves you all scratching your heads about how Corbyn could've lost. This is amazing and covers all my thoughts. I'm curious why Corbyn hasn't resigned. Is there a reason beyond "maximum influence to pick my successor"
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Dec 16, 2019 09:35
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Pesmerga posted:Or get someone who can triangulate and bullshit with the best of them, who looks like the sort of centrist that the papers might accept, who then comes out with a rabid socialist agenda after the election. This is literally what a bunch of people on the left thought Blair was, until he didn't do the second part. Fool me once etc.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:36
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MikeCrotch posted:The reason people itt had so much hope about this election was because of how dramatically Labour beat the odds in 2017. A lot of people were riding on repeating that experience this year which obviously didn't work out, but plenty of people who are crowing about the left being wrong in 2019 absolutely ate poo poo in 2017. How did they beat the odds? They lost against May. A woman with the charisma of an animate turd. After 7? Years of Tory rule
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Dec 16, 2019 09:37
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2017 was not a victory. Labour lost. How the gently caress can you call it a victory?
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Dec 16, 2019 09:39
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MikeCrotch posted:This is literally what a bunch of people on the left thought Blair was, until he didn't do the second part. Fool me once etc. I know, which means that the position of whoever takes over this mess is going to be absolutely Sisyphean, unless they’re (as states above) dedicated to just fixing a lot of the shot going wrong at the moment in the party, who then stands down for someone relatively free of any of the baggage either Blairite or Corbyn shadow cabinet based.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:40
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Boris Johnson set to move forward with anti-BDS law here we.... here we.......... here we fuckin go
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Dec 16, 2019 09:40
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MikeCrotch posted:This is literally what a bunch of people on the left thought Blair was, until he didn't do the second part. Fool me once etc. Yeah, there's an issue about getting people in who don't have a leftist past and espouse neoliberal ideas and then expecting them to enact leftist policies.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:41
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And with it looking like labour whichever wing takes over is going to beat that anti-immigration drum hard, I’m not feeling particularly great about any of it.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:41
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Pesmerga posted:Also if we have a constituency based system, have that actually mean something. The amount of people telling me that the only time they ever saw their MP or that they seemed to engage with their constituents was around election time. That combined with failings of local government (both related to corruption and to the collapse of their resources and ability to provide) meant that there was already antipathy built in to relations with Labour regardless of Corbyn. The policies didn’t resonate either - a lot more needs to be done to change the mindset regarding public expenditure, as the general discourse of ‘just free stuff but who will pay for it’ and ‘fantasy economics’ were also not uncommon.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:43
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Antinumeric posted:I'm curious why Corbyn hasn't resigned. Is there a reason beyond "maximum influence to pick my successor" Walking away whistling right after losing a vote is more a Tory thing.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:45
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Miftan posted:Yeah, there's an issue about getting people in who don't have a leftist past and espouse neoliberal ideas and then expecting them to enact leftist policies. If 'getting in' means getting them into Downing Street then that should be the primary concern of Labour voters. You have to decide where your priorities lie. Stopping Tories > Socialism = Labour Government. Socialism > Stopping Tories = Tory Government. By all means put pressure on the Labour leader to sneak a few socialist agendas into each Queen's Speech as a powerful interparty bloc, ala the ERG, but get Downing Street first.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:46
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Asking who the next Labour leader should be is the wrong question right now. What Labour needs to do is find their version of Lord Ashcroft to produce their version of Smell the coffee and then digest that for a bit. The real question is who that person should be.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:47
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I’m convinced one of the main differences between 2017 and now is that a woman was in charge of the Tory party. Firstly it was easier to spin her as Maggie 2, and secondly the Venn diagram of racist fuckwaffles and misogynists is a circle.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:47
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For the seventy billionth time. There is no deputy leader right now, and party rules state there has to be a deputy for the leader to resign. Without one there needs to be the full leadership election before he can go.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:49
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A reinvented socialism might not be a bad idea either. Something that focuses on the challenge of the 21st century in terms of environment, automation and sustainability rather than appealing to industrialism and/or traditional workers in the age of precarity would probably help. Which would require going beyond suddenly blasting people with ‘HEY, FREE INTERNET!’ in a manifesto a few weeks before the election for a continuing discussion on what the economy should look like, how services should run, and a constant ground game that shows how communities can work.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:49
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I came on here to whine about the rail service in the UK but this distracted me. I have no idea why my homepage suggested this article to me but Peter Hitchens is attacking the Johnson government for being too left wing  quote:The Conservatives have now replaced Blairite New Labour as the main Left-wing party in the country. This is great for everyone who loves the Blair programme of fervent, intolerant political correctness, a continuing war on what’s left of the married family, useless egalitarian state schools and gigantic public spending and borrowing. I know he's been suuuuuper right wing for ages but this is just beyond parody. Not quoted: they're namby pamby greenies for not depending 100% on coal for power generation.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:50
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"cosmopolitan social liberals" is slippery... if you wind back to the old Labour right, its grip on the old Labour right trade unions was because it channelled those in the "working class" Labour who regarded the Bennites as loony-left middle-class metropolitan liberals who want to betray the UK to the Soviets, wouldn't know a hard day's work if it hit them with a hammer, the culprits behind the permissive society, &c. The old Labour right was as different from New Labour as the modern Momentum faction is as different from the old Militant grouping... this "working class" group doesn't really exist any more, at least not in the numbers it once did. The industrial demographics of the north are too different. Nobody on the "new new left" actually has a plan to bring the jobs of the old trifecta back (roles that are masculine, dangerous, and in close-knit teams); we can natter on about the new green jobs but even if the numbers can be made to work out (currently they do not), it still wouldn't generate the same kind of community that would underpin a cradle-to-grave social base this doesn't mean "the left is dead", but rather that the left is going to undergo some intellectual innovation to justify why, in Marxist/etc terms of one's choice, actually its metropolitan squeezed-middle core is the actual working class. Demographic changes are really hard to consciously alter, it's much easier for ideologies to evolve themselves to fit
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Dec 16, 2019 09:52
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Antinumeric posted:This is amazing and covers all my thoughts. Echo chamber: smashed
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Dec 16, 2019 09:53
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Rakosi posted:If 'getting in' means getting them into Downing Street then that should be the primary concern of Labour voters. You have to decide where your priorities lie. Stopping the tories in the short term with Blair is what got us the tories now, so it's not quite that simple, unfortunately. Pesmerga posted:A reinvented socialism might not be a bad idea either. Something that focuses on the challenge of the 21st century in terms of environment, automation and sustainability rather than appealing to industrialism and/or traditional workers in the age of precarity would probably help. Which would require going beyond suddenly blasting people with ‘HEY, FREE INTERNET!’ in a manifesto a few weeks before the election for a continuing discussion on what the economy should look like, how services should run, and a constant ground game that shows how communities can work. I think that's been happening a bit over the last 2 years but we definitely need to ratchet it up. 20th century socialism doesn't work today.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:57
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Labour Party as the party of immaterial production / reproduction seems to be one of the lines
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Dec 16, 2019 09:57
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MikeCrotch posted:This is literally what a bunch of people on the left thought Blair was, until he didn't do the second part. Fool me once etc. His government also has a higher death toll than the last 9 years of Tories, so it's hardly the damage limitation exercise some present it as
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Dec 16, 2019 09:58
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jaete posted:Can't be for all these; why not? Honest question They’re all different groups who want different things and don’t like each other much. Humans are tribal, we tend to abandon groups that we feel aren’t about our specific group exclusively any more.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:02
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Alchenar posted:Asking who the next Labour leader should be is the wrong question right now. What Labour needs to do is find their version of Lord Ashcroft to produce their version of Smell the coffee and then digest that for a bit. The real question is who that person should be. there's a lot of people on the party left (who have control of all the relevant committees now) who are convinced that focus grouping and polling are Blairite lies that don't work, that chase a Tory framing ever rightward instead of leading the people left. There are also folks who think it works just as well as ever and just needs a left-winger to interpret its results in a good-faith-to-the-left manner part of Andrew Fisher's despair was that the electioneering apparatus was just stonewalling the results of focus grouping and polling... Blair/Cameron were both leaderships in a period where there was unshakeable faith in the efficacy of polling to deduce the truth from the fog, or at least better than any other way of separating just-so stories from reality. But that's not true on the left today, there's no way for a particularly focused/funded white paper to transform the party this way, I would think. Fabian has no shortage of such papers if one wants to look
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Dec 16, 2019 10:03
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Why are we letting Rakosi, noted racist and his bootlicking oval office here:Antinumeric posted:This is amazing and covers all my thoughts. post in this thread as if they aren't popping in from their own echo chamber that uses the n-word liberally to claim that we're the real echo chamber.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:03
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Pesmerga posted:A reinvented socialism might not be a bad idea either. Something that focuses on the challenge of the 21st century in terms of environment, automation and sustainability rather than appealing to industrialism and/or traditional workers in the age of precarity would probably help. Which would require going beyond suddenly blasting people with ‘HEY, FREE INTERNET!’ in a manifesto a few weeks before the election for a continuing discussion on what the economy should look like, how services should run, and a constant ground game that shows how communities can work. Universalism requires massive bungs to the middle class at the opportunity cost of spending on the working class. One of the big conversations that needs to happen is whether Labour is still committed to that or needs to step back to a more traditional focus on redistribution.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:10
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Antinumeric posted:How did they beat the odds? They lost against May. A woman with the charisma of an animate turd. After 7? Years of Tory rule A lot of media articles and some posts here from the last few days come off like they were written on June 7th 2017 with the expectation Corbyn was going to be destroyed by May - he was too left, he never stood a chance, the whole project was doomed from the start, this is what happens if you embrace Edit: like, yes, we've got a lot to learn from this time around and a lot of preparation to do for next time, but the exact same was true of the Tories 18 months ago, and I didn't see them throwing the core party overboard in an appeal to Centrism. Apraxin fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 10:10
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Miftan posted:Stopping the tories in the short term with Blair is what got us the tories now, so it's not quite that simple, unfortunately. Specific, isolable events like the Iraq War, not general Blair-ness, lead to that. Illegal wars are not an intrinsic quality of Blairism/Centrism and I don't for one second buy this argument for why its not a good idea to try a proven winning formula again, when Labour has just been totally crushed running on the left.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:10
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If getting into downing street means mimicking the tories then what exactly is the point? The goal here is to stop people being murdered and if your way of doing that is to... promise half-assed versions of the policy that kills them, then there is, I think, a disconnect between your approach and your goals. Not to mention that triangulating towards the center (I. E. the right) did not help the Lib dems or anyone else this time and kick-started the whole decade of tory rule in the first place back with New Labour. The right have the knack of making people want their policy, but every time a leftist proposal comes up there's always this impulse to cut it down and make it "acceptable" (that is, worthless). That never works out, it just leads to a defanged implementation that is immediately undone by the next government. So I say: why can't we make people want a policy that helps them? Lots of people already want it, even if it is slightly (in relative terms) less than the opposite, so why not go for more and go for broke? Ideals of a world where you don't have to fear starving to death or being killed for the profit of industry did not begin with Corbyn and will not die with him. There is no need to cut away the point of your policy to make it "presentable" or "reasonable." Instead what you do is that you act as if it self-evidently is. You don't have to be ignorant to be confident in what you want to do. Self-assurance will turn a radical idea into "common sense." It has in the past, after all. Familiarity helps as well: they've been going after the NHS for years, they couldn't undo it in a day, because it's what people know. That's why we have to stick around. It doesn't take long for the new radical wave to be the established antidote to the authority in charge. Socialism has a foot in the door among the Labour party, don't let it be pushed out now or watered down.
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