|
You know, maybe we should go slightly more right. We don't really need a leader per se, more a man who could be handled to say the right things to appeal to the broadest audience possible. And to fight the antisemitism allegations we should go for someone jewish, that must work. Oh yeah. Okay, how about even someone less socialist than that who is attached to a successful government whilst also having a strong background in economics, someone people can pin their hopes to.  gently caress. Right, how about the most centrist person in the UK, so central all of the world revolves around them. Not only that, we choose someone to represent modern Britain, a young black man who is confident and has years of experience. Not only that but is willing to speak truth to power and not afraid to get stuck in.  poo poo, I'm starting to think maybe throwing away years of work by party members based on some conjecture might not work out. Maybe all that energy around canvassing and donations was more for something that could change the country rather than have more of the same. I think Labour should stick with where it is, for me they've already compromised as it's not socialist enough, but just stick to one thing. In the corporate world they call it brand recognition - stand by your convictions and don't flip flop based on the first obstacle. A lot of looking back and trying to guess what went wrong and yadda yadda - I think we have an inkling but will never know for sure. Consensus isn't reality.
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 21:51 |
|
|
NewMars posted:You really shouldn't engage with Rakosi. There's a pretty salient point to be made that this thread has some bad tunnel vision at times, but that's not what he's doing. Look at them, look at what they are saying and how they are saying it. They didn't come in here to debate, they didn't come in here to question, they didn't come in here to do anything that they might pretend to. They're just here to gloat and rant about how socialism is dead forever and now we should return to the days of "pragmatic" and "realistic" policy-making. They don't give a drat what you say and to be frank the more you talk the more they'll dig in their heels because they just want to expound, not talk. For all that they mention compromise, notice that not once do they ever admit that Blair might've not been perfect (which they will now do, probably, likely half-heartedly if they don't just get defensive) or that Corbyn had good points. Whenever momentum or socialism come up they will get progressively angrier at it until they let the mask slip. I mean, the same can be said for some of you lot vice versa. Someone earlier in the thread posted that you guys aren't an echo-chamber of Labour leftists and do engage in good faith argument and I am repeating good faith arguments that have been used against Labour, by historic Labour voters in this same election. I am, admittedly, rubbing your faces in the loss but I feel that is my right because Momentum absolutely has hijacked Labour and kamikaze'd it's election chances. I had a lot riding on this election and I am pretty pissed off at the left. I am making pretty salient points that were to be made about how this thread has bad tunnel vision, but its just that certain melts can't stand hearing them from me of all people. That's all on them. This whole election has provided the Labour center and right the perfect "Well, you did way worse than us" smugface when the left keep insisting that the center is untenable, and it is ultimately undeniable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:16
|
|
|
The tories have one of the most personally unpopular PMs of the modern era, I remember is wasn’t long ago May was deemed the new Iron Lady so it will be interesting to see when the wheels come off the boris bus
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:17
|
|
|
This is why you never put your faith in electoralism Requesting that Praxiscast does a Kropotkin episode
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:21
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:I am, admittedly, rubbing your faces in the loss but I feel that is my right because Momentum absolutely has hijacked Labour and kamikaze'd it's election chances. I had a lot riding on this election and I am pretty pissed off at the left. I am making pretty salient points that were to be made about how this thread has bad tunnel vision, but its just that certain melts can't stand hearing them from me of all people. That's all on them. I don't get how this is the fault of Momentum, or the left in general. So much self-flaggelation and for what? The right don't do it. Look at how the Tea Party started in the US and how that eventually lead to Trump - you should be thinking how to put across what you actually want rather than second guessing, tactical voting, compromising, letting people hold lovely views unchallenged.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:24
|
|
|
justcola posted:I don't get how this is the fault of Momentum, or the left in general. So much self-flaggelation and for what? The right don't do it. Look at how the Tea Party started in the US and how that eventually lead to Trump - you should be thinking how to put across what you actually want rather than second guessing, tactical voting, compromising, letting people hold lovely views unchallenged. The Tea Party and Momentum aren’t really comparable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:24
|
|
|
Sounds like this is what people itt are after https://twitter.com/LabourByTheMany/status/1205422408708046849?s=19
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:24
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:I am, admittedly, rubbing your faces in the loss but I feel that is my right because Momentum absolutely has hijacked Labour and kamikaze'd it's election chances. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:25
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:I'm saying you can find someone as attractive to the electorate as Blair was without the "bombing the browns" baggage. They don't have to go together and I'm getting frustrated at trying to convey that. You can do all the things that attracted the electorate to Blair without bombing innocent people. That bit wasn't part of Blair's manifesto when people initially voted for his Labour. Blair's politics got brown people bombed. Blair's politics implies being lapdog to countries like the USA. Blair's politics meant pandering to the banks and helped usher in the crash of 2008. The entire political wing to the right of Corbyn lamented how he said bad words about the misogynist-in-chief. It's not about the personality, it's about the politics. So long as the politics have a socialist "hey perhaps pay back into the system that helped you get this rich" platform that isn't all that crazy about exploiting workers, the media will loving decimate them. You're preaching at a community of people that don't want Blair's politics. So gently caress off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:32
|
|
|
Reminder that Rakosi got banned in the UKMT earlier this year for gleefully masturbating about the Christchurch Massacre before the bodies were even cold.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:36
|
|
|
Jose posted:Sounds like this is what people itt are after and also, 
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:37
|
|
|
Bundy posted:Blair's politics got brown people bombed. Blair's politics implies being lapdog to countries like the USA. Blair's politics meant pandering to the banks and helped usher in the crash of 2008. Very interesting; I remember saying in UKMT many years ago that the time I did vote Tory was because I couldn't trust Labour economically because of the crash and I was told A) to engorge myself on stools and B) it was a global crash which was very complicated and nothing to do with Labour. Different excuses for different eras I suppose. We are always going to be a lapdog of the USA; especially now we're out of the EU, but we were always anyway. Hardly unique to Blair. Bundy posted:It's not about the personality, it's about the politics. So long as the politics have a socialist "hey perhaps pay back into the system that helped you get this rich" platform that isn't all that crazy about exploiting workers, the media will loving decimate them. You're preaching at a community of people that don't want Blair's politics. And you've been preaching to a whole country that doesn't want Corbyn's. It is completely about personality; I don't know how you can interpret this result and not lay the blame, personally, at the feet of the leadership and its allies. Modern British elections are more presidential than they are parliamentary and an unelectable leader is terminal to the chances of a party.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:41
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:Reminder that Rakosi got banned in the UKMT earlier this year for gleefully masturbating about the Christchurch Massacre before the bodies were even cold.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:43
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:The Tea Party and Momentum aren’t really comparable. Correct, Momentum weren't nationalists and Britain wanted nationalists
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:44
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:The Tea Party and Momentum aren’t really comparable. Well, no. But a third party group that can influence a political party by holding more 'extreme' views is effective - just less of a thing on the left than the right. (I don't consider XR to be left). Plus all that talk about discussions in good faith yet ignoring the multiple reasons the media, Brexit, messaging etc. isn't really a discussion just 'WELL WHAT ABOUT MOMENTUM' E: Venomous posted:Correct, Momentum weren't nationalists and Britain wanted nationalists I wouldn't mind a more nationlistic left wing besides I can't think of anything we can be proud about and nationalism is gross. justcola fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Dec 16, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:44
|
|
|
The Labour left picked up a full third of the vote and the centre was wiped out. I get people being mad about losing, but what is it about loving centrists that they're such a complete closed off cult that they seem to be genuinely and indignantly arguing that up is down and complete failure is actually a sign of support, especially when Labour supporters immediately went for full introspection.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:45
|
|
|
caps on caps on caps posted:
i have no idea if this is aimed at me but if it is, i don't quite understand what it has to do with the point i made re: english nationalists hating the continent so much they won't even entertain copying the decent stuff some of the euro [capitalist] countries do wrt public investment in infrastructure. like i don't understand why people keep misreading clearly worded posts itt and using this misreading as a launchpad for a rant at the poster.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:45
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:Very interesting; I remember saying in UKMT many years ago that the time I did vote Tory was because I couldn't trust Labour economically because of the crash and I was told A) to engorge myself on stools and B) it was a global crash which was very complicated and nothing to do with Labour. Different excuses for different eras I suppose. We are always going to be a lapdog of the USA; especially now we're out of the EU, but we were always anyway. Hardly unique to Blair. Welcome to the thread of people that want a political landscape where those in it don't have the sort of politics that makes them amenable whenever the USA wants to blow some poo poo up. This means rejecting current centrist politics, as the vast majority of voters did. Liberals will appease fascists 10 times out of 10. Rakosi posted:And you've been preaching to a whole country that doesn't want Corbyn's. It is completely about personality; I don't know how you can interpret this result and not lay the blame, personally, at the feet of the leadership and its allies. Modern British elections are more presidential than they are parliamentary and an unelectable leader is terminal to the chances of a party. Since you're deliberately ignoring anything that challenges this narrative, and are simply repeating this narrative, can you hurry up with upping the gently caress shut now please.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:45
|
|
|
As a big fan of Corbyn and his policies my biggest criticism of him is his lack of decisive leadership and I think that's what cost him many of the votes Labour lost since 2017. When I say lack of decisive leadership I'm specifically referring to how he constantly referenced back to internal Labour party decision making processes when talking about policy. It lended an air to him of someone who you didn't really know what they stood for, his neutral arbiter stance on Brexit hammering that home. I really wish Corbyn had been more forceful and projected his personality better rather than what honestly appeared at times to be hiding behind the Labour membership and never being able to establish what he himself thought about things (you could of course find this out but it would take a lot more reading and analysis than your average voter is prepared to do). I think the savage, disgusting and constant media attacks were rendered even more powerful than they could have been because Corbyn never really established a decisive way to cut through with his own personality.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:45
|
|
|
Banning Pissflaps was the right idea tbh
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:46
|
|
|
caps on caps on caps posted:In fact, there are such countries with little public infrastructure. And what you have there is, for example, nice streets and sidewalks with greenery right next to a building, and then sand and construction garbage for the rest of the street. It's super annoying, even if you are literally the monopoly dude you couldn't really live in a nice environment. You necessarily live in a world of trash and misery, until you reach the gates of your gated community project. Oh hey it’s São Paulo. Like, what struck me there was that all the infrastructure is poo poo; pavements feel like someone made up a job load of concrete, poured it over whatever was lying on the ground and called it a day.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:46
|
|
|
Flayer posted:As a big fan of Corbyn and his policies my biggest criticism of him is his lack of decisive leadership and I think that's what cost him many of the votes Labour lost since 2017. When I say lack of decisive leadership I'm specifically referring to how he constantly referenced back to internal Labour party decision making processes when talking about policy. It lended an air to him of someone who you didn't really know what they stood for, his neutral arbiter stance on Brexit hammering that home. I really wish Corbyn had been more forceful and projected his personality better rather than what honestly appeared at times to be hiding behind the Labour membership and never being able to establish what he himself thought about things (you could of course find this out but it would take a lot more reading and analysis than your average voter is prepared to do). Pretty much yeah. 2015: Alright let's try kinder, gentler politics 2019: okay gently caress being kind or gentle grab the boots lads
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:47
|
|
|
Venomous posted:Correct, Momentum weren't nationalists and Britain wanted nationalists justcola posted:Well, no. But a third party group that can influence a political party by holding more 'extreme' views is effective - just less of a thing on the left than the right. (I don't consider XR to be left). Plus all that talk about discussions in good faith yet ignoring the multiple reasons the media, Brexit, messaging etc. isn't really a discussion just 'WELL WHAT ABOUT MOMENTUM' I meant more that the Tea Party was essentially an astroturf movement with a lot of money behind it from dubious sources, whereas Momentum isn't, and won't get the same kind of reach for that reason.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:48
|
|
|
We don't need reach, we need boots on the ground.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:48
|
|
|
CGI Stardust posted:it'd be impressive and horrible if the great success of Corbyn is moving the Conservatives to successful vote-winning Keynsian nationalism, but Johnson's got Javid as chancellor so we'll see what happens I guess quote:Community ownership. We will establish a £150 million Community Ownership Fund to encourage local takeovers of civic organisations or community assets that are under threat – local football clubs, but also pubs or post offices. Socialism!  but also CON manifesto 2019. The trick is that £150m is hardly enough to move the needle nationally, but it would be sufficient for the headline-ready cases with the most genuine community support. It's not really Keynesian but out of the Cameron big-society playbook, albeit rhetorically pitched in fairness/community terms rather than in shrinking-the-bloated-government terms
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:49
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:Modern British elections are more presidential than they are parliamentary and an unelectable leader is terminal to the chances of a party. What personality with similar politics to Corbyn would be electable, in your view? I can see an argument for a younger leader who can act as a cipher for different political beliefs (like Obama did in the US and Boris just did for the right) but this is the opposite leadership approach to Corbyn and undermines much of the appeal of Corbyn to the base as a straight talker who says what he means and is consistent. Possibly the way forward is to go the neoliberalism route and present socialism as boring, inevitable, and not worth debating because all sensible people agree on it. The issue with this is the right will run disruption against attempts to normalise socialism in this way.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:49
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:We don't need reach, we need boots on the ground. Which again reinforces my point that the two movements aren't comparable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:50
|
|
|
Bundy posted:Since you're deliberately ignoring anything that challenges this narrative, and are simply repeating this narrative, can you hurry up with upping the gently caress shut now please. I'm not ignoring anything that challenges this narrative. Some people have said it's because of corrupt media, some people have said it's because of Brexit. I've heard these and I can see how they contribute. I think Corbyn was the biggest contributor to the crushing Labour suffered. I'm not ignoring you, I'm disagreeing about what was the biggest mistake.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:51
|
|
|
Flayer posted:As a big fan of Corbyn and his policies my biggest criticism of him is his lack of decisive leadership and I think that's what cost him many of the votes Labour lost since 2017. When I say lack of decisive leadership I'm specifically referring to how he constantly referenced back to internal Labour party decision making processes when talking about policy. It lended an air to him of someone who you didn't really know what they stood for, his neutral arbiter stance on Brexit hammering that home. I really wish Corbyn had been more forceful and projected his personality better rather than what honestly appeared at times to be hiding behind the Labour membership and never being able to establish what he himself thought about things (you could of course find this out but it would take a lot more reading and analysis than your average voter is prepared to do). This wouldn't happen with Corbyn as this isn't what his politics is about. He is a literal Big Fan of Democracy but he's always been an activist that happened to get elected rather than a politician. Questions can and should definitely be asked of the judgement about who he surrounded himself with/had advising him to deal with all that political stuff that he hated/didn't know how to navigate. This is immaterial though. With Brexit and the media wall, it didn't matter. Look at those polls where almost everyone's first answer is "don't like Corbyn". Anyone that's actually met the man and had a conversation with him, or seen the unedited stuff we see, thinks he's a wonderful human being. The vast majority of voters have the usual media lens where Corbyn rarely comes off well, either because he's being criticised or because he's being skewered by a hostile interviewer. We had a reprieve of Labour in power because the party went Tory lite and was happy to pander to the likes of Murdoch. Not doing so has brought us the same issues. As soon as the press turned on Brown the polls nosedived, in hindsight it's somewhat surprising we avoided a Tory majority (sort of). Now we don't want to be Tory lite, we've got the same obstacles we had the last time the party was more left leaning. We've had 40 years to figure out a route around the media wall and it remains the top priority.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:54
|
|
|
Purple Prince posted:What personality with similar politics to Corbyn would be electable, in your view? Rayner or Thornberry would be good. Let's be honest though - if Starmer want's it, it's his.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:57
|
|
|
Why are we indulging this racist?
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:58
|
|
|
What's annoying is that Diane Abbott is smart as poo poo and makes perfectly cogent points when given time to speak, she only fucks up when being heckled and browbeaten by cunts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:59
|
|
|
Comrade Fakename posted:Why are we indulging this racist? Because our IK is apparently on the toilet.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:59
|
|
|
It needs to be a female leader. There's more than qualified candidates and the supposed progressive party has never had a non white male leader to my knowledge. Putting a known remainer in like Starmer would not be good, it'd provide an obvious blunt for any opposition to Tory Brexiting over the next 5 years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 12:59
|
|
|
Starmer will win if he appeals directly to Blue Labour
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 13:00
|
|
|
Purple Prince posted:What personality with similar politics to Corbyn would be electable, in your view? I gave my opinion about what Labour should do a few times already; I'm not being contrarian just for the sake of it. I think Labour should just put some kind of acting leadership in charge for a year to 'clean up the party', whatever that means. Corbyn has become an 'ism' and anything connected to him and this defeat will fail at the ballot box. Labour needs to spend time in the media doing a big song and dance about removing anti-semitism, reforming the party policies around recapturing the heartlands they lost to Boris, and swearing to never look at the Brexit issue ever again. Then once this has been done, however well or badly, they need to turf out whoever was in charge of it because that person will be media tainted and bring forward the kind of person that anyone could vote for with a moderate platform with only a few minor socialist things on the agenda. At this point we're all expending Boris to have ruined the country and Brexit to have gone sour. The only thing that could lose in this environment is a rehash of Corbyn. It'd be like rerunning Hillary. Let the centrists control the party but keep it in check with a large socialist base (ala the ERG for the minority Tories) that puts pressure on every so often to push through specific, key socialist policies. Not so much it looks like the leader can't control his party but enough that it all seems nicely democratic to everyone. This of course is impossible because Labour left isn't politically cynical, savvy or patient enough. PS: to my fans, I don't think I should be probated or banned for saying it was Corbyn's fault. Please do keep trying to engage with good faith and I will return the courtesy, though I might disagree with your points. I apologise in advance for the inconvenience.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 13:01
|
|
|
even as a known remainer starmer has issues https://twitter.com/Tom_Gann/status/1206384638526214144?s=20
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 13:01
|
|
|
It'd be good to listen to people's different experiences internationally in similar situations, a lot of people turned up before the election to show solidarity and it'd be good if that continued. I feel I need to educate myself more but there has to be something more palpable than Chapo Trap House or Zizek or what have you. I think the Preston model is interesting, as is how Wetherspoons retains local flavour whilst still being the same thing - national identity is too fascist for me, but I can appreciate that feeling at a more regional level. Any suggestions books on localism or international cooperation done between citizens would be appreciated 
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 13:01
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:I'm not ignoring anything that challenges this narrative. Some people have said it's because of corrupt media, some people have said it's because of Brexit. I've heard these and I can see how they contribute. I think Corbyn was the biggest contributor to the crushing Labour suffered. I'm not ignoring you, I'm disagreeing about what was the biggest mistake. so a confluence of different factors with corbyn's meek and deferential-to-the-membership style on top brought us to this point. *in this specific regard* i agree with you. leadership is about taking on board different opinions and then making your own decision with those opinions in mind, not just bending wherever the votes take you and improvising as you go along. if he'd stuck firm to his initial instinct to abide by the referendum the membership and the PLP wouldn't have liked it but they'd have learned to live with it. i know i would have.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 13:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 21:51 |
|
|
all of the new gen leaders will be chewed up and spat out by the membership if they pushed the exact manifesto Corbyn ran on in 2017, I think - this is a membership that just three months ago was gleefully voting for stuff too left-wing for the leadership to stomach at a general election. Corbyn really relied on his reputational aura as an old leftie, even if that same thing then hurt him at the ballot box anyway,  NEWS re: succession race https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1206542210558287873
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2019 13:03
|
|