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The electorate didn't reject the left or Labour, it loving loved the Conservatives The Conservatives won 43.6% of the vote, a share not seen since Thatchers first win. Turn out was not incredibly low either. If it was just a rejection of the left, then people would have stayed home. People are liking what Boris is offering. I personally think a lot of this is Brexit related but that's just me, we don't actually know the reasons yet. Centrism isn't the answer There is a centrist party. They sucked. There is no evidence of any appetite for Centrism at large in the British Electorate. Labour got things wrong We thought our grassroots movement was enough. It wasn't, it was potentially focused on the wrong areas and it looks like it didn't change enough minds. We underestimated just how much people want Brexit. Depending on how far you wind back the clock, this election might have been unwinnable once brexit ambiguity was lost. Our messaging game wasn't great. If you're explaining you're losing. We lost to the right here. We made manifesto mistakes - broadband went down like a lead balloon. We got such great success in 2017 by smashing the headlines with a new policy announcement every few days, we tried it again but failed in 2019. We underestimated the way the public felt about Corbyn, what changed between 2017 and 2019? Nothing with man, he's still the same honest, kind and genuine person he was before, but the media were able to paint a picture of him that settled into the public consciousness. We underestimated the power of the traditional media. Labour got things right Our grassroots movement is brilliant at getting out the vote. We stood up for what was right. We put out a policy platform that would have really helped so many people. That drove a lot of energy across the party. The Labour party is no longer a centrist party - and that's fine At least 10m people want a left wing socialist party. Labour is, mainly, that party. The changes of the last few years have solidified that and if the new leader comes from the left it's likely to be cemented for the foreseeable future. The membership wants this. Its an absolutely fair and fine thing to happen. Labour/Corbym/The left didn't give Boris anything, the reason Boris has the biggest Tory majority since Thatcher is that more people voted Tory than they have since Thatcher. There is a huge left wing, socialist movement in the UK and we deserve representation. Centrism doesn't win poo poo without us, just look at the Lib Dems. If the Tories are so horrible maybe they should be holding their noses and voting for us instead of asking us to do the same. Centrists, or even more "right of the left" people should be mad at FPTP not people fighting for and voting for what they believe in. Stupid Cat Tax 
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Dec 16, 2019 14:47
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ronya posted:I am seeing this a fair bit over the past couple of days, and I genuinely am baffled by attempts on the left to claim John Smith I, Oh dear me posted:Tesseraction called him a 'more cautious moderniser', I'm not sure why you think that's claiming him. 'Modernize' was the right's favourite word. Yeah this. How would you expect me to square the circle of John Smith succeeding Kinnock, who successfully destroyed the left of the party sans a small, powerless rump*? *no giggling in the back
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Dec 16, 2019 14:48
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Jose posted:not sure how this will work toys will be thrown until the pram situation improves
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Dec 16, 2019 14:50
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Is there any footage of Chuka losing on election night please? I can't find anything on YouTube.
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Dec 16, 2019 14:54
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Reminder that Labour cannot have a change of leader until it has a new Deputy Leader. That will have to be sorted out first, and the result of it could significantly alter the equation of who the new leader should be. So we don't really need to fight hard on which individual should be leader right now. I think the focus should be on winning the argument against pursuing centrism/rightism. The centrists got flattened during the election, so that way is dead, and going right would just alienate some of our existing voters and likely be inadequate to convince people to shift from the Tories. Thoughts on Deputy Leader choices? Can't say that I have anything specific myself. A lot was written on it when Twatson announced he was stepping down in November, but that's a bit outdated now. What should determine who to support as Deputy Leader? Someone who's not quite ready for leadership but holds promise for the future? Certainly we want to shore up the Left's position within the party. But again, I have no specifics to give.
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Dec 16, 2019 14:55
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Also, something nobody has mentioned: in 1983, Labour won 41 seats in Scotland (out of 209), compared to 1 in Scotland this year (out of 202). They actually did better in England and Wales this year than they did 36 years ago. If Labour were pro-independence (or at the very least accepted the possibility of Scottish independence) they would have done a lot better on the whole. As it stands, they only look a lot worse because Scotland is so pro-SNP. Like, honestly, if you assume that the Scots are gone after Brexit, it makes it so much easier for Labour to get their poo poo together down south. Scotland is a lost cause. Venomous fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 14:58
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Gardiner for Deputy
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Dec 16, 2019 15:01
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Soft brexit could absolutely have happened https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1206573816266313728?s=19
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Dec 16, 2019 15:02
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Braggart posted:Reminder that Labour cannot have a change of leader until it has a new Deputy Leader. They'll be elected together I hope, to save money and to allow 'teams'. JC will step down when they're elected so there's no leaderless hiatus.
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Dec 16, 2019 15:11
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Jose posted:a twitter thread containing disqualifying stuff for anyone who needs it to argue against jess phillips as leader What does BOGOF mean?
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Dec 16, 2019 15:13
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Buy one get one free Buy one racism, get one ableism free
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Dec 16, 2019 15:14
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Ah I see.
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Dec 16, 2019 15:15
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Fiery Brave Feminist as long as you're a white cis female
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Dec 16, 2019 15:18
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actually it's from tracy beaker
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Dec 16, 2019 15:18
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Oh dear me posted:They'll be elected together I hope, to save money and to allow 'teams'. JC will step down when they're elected so there's no leaderless hiatus. Hmm. Is there anything stating that that's a possibility/how it will go? I'm suspicious of the idea because it could be used to set up a compromise where the right gets a deputy under a left leader, and we've all seen how that goes. I think I would prefer getting a lefty deputy and then saying "gently caress you righties, we want a lefty leader as well" We need to build a united machine, not have parts undermining each other. The Labour Right have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted in the slightest. Sideline them. Braggart fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 15:20
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Braggart posted:Hmm. Is there anything stating that that's a possibility/how it will go? I mean that is what will happen so no worries there. There’s a dread the centrists will get back into power in the party but the rules are structured so they simply can’t and won’t.
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Dec 16, 2019 15:22
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Jose posted:Soft brexit could absolutely have happened Going back to an earlier point, this is the sort of thing I know Bastani for and it seems fine to me, I'm not sure what I'm missing on him. Wasn't sure about hostility to Mason either but I think I've seen it recently. What would have been the right Brexit approach? Maybe set out the conditions for the deal, and get it. Then if we can't meet the criteria what is settled on goes to confirmatiory vote? Wouldn't appease the Fubpees though, and could be framed as a stitch-up by the right the moment there's a suggestion we can't make the deal.
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Dec 16, 2019 15:23
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Braggart posted:Hmm. Is there anything stating that that's a possibility/how it will go? No, I'm wrong, because JC will have to resign to trigger an election. I think the NEC then appoints a acting leader just during the election. E: "When the Party is in opposition and the leader and deputy leader, for whatever reason, both become permanently unavailable, the NEC shall order a postal ballot as provided under E above. In consultation with the Shadow Cabinet they may choose to appoint a member of the Shadow Cabinet to serve as Party leader until the outcome of that ballot." Oh dear me fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 15:29
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I've seen it suggested on twitter that Alex sobel run for deputy leader mostly because he's Jewish. What's he like?
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Dec 16, 2019 15:33
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Jose posted:I've seen it suggested on twitter that Alex sobel run for deputy leader mostly because he's Jewish. What's he like? A suspected antisemite, if he runs
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Dec 16, 2019 15:37
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Seems good so far https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1206525625328164866?s=19 https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1206562850493341696?s=19
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Dec 16, 2019 15:37
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This is where you sign up to get on the Labour By The Many mailing list. Spread it around.
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Dec 16, 2019 15:42
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BizarroAzrael posted:Going back to an earlier point, this is the sort of thing I know Bastani for and it seems fine to me, I'm not sure what I'm missing on him. Wasn't sure about hostility to Mason either but I think I've seen it recently. Dr Beastmode: has a tendency to jump on top of things and double down when they later turn out to be wrong, FALC is bad because it ignores Third World issues and climate and a whole load of other stuff (see Pesmarga's post earlier), possibly a grifter but it's hard to tell, also a leading cause of PhD Trutherism in the UK
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Dec 16, 2019 15:43
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Fans posted:I mean that is what will happen so no worries there. Oh indeed we can keep them out of the leadership as long as we're sensible, but I'm entertaining the idea of keeping them out of as much as possible within the party. Squash their influence further and further by avoiding giving them responsibility or appointments. See how they like it 
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Dec 16, 2019 15:50
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Lib Dem leadership elections are coming up soon. Which leadership candidate should they pick to accelerate their complete and total annihilation as a party? Hoping for Christine Jardine, mainly because she's terrible.
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Dec 16, 2019 16:04
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Venomous posted:Also, something nobody has mentioned: in 1983, Labour won 41 seats in Scotland (out of 209), compared to 1 in Scotland this year (out of 202). I've been trying to work out how to say this for a few days now, so I'm stealing this.
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Dec 16, 2019 16:05
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Braggart posted:as long as we're sensible, 
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Dec 16, 2019 16:06
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Insensible centrists.
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Dec 16, 2019 16:07
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Venomous posted:Also, something nobody has mentioned: in 1983, Labour won 41 seats in Scotland (out of 209), compared to 1 in Scotland this year (out of 202). Scottish Nationalism has nowhere near the same or even comparable levels of bile, venom and poison as English nationalism historically has; the latter is one of the main causes of brexit...
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Dec 16, 2019 16:08
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Ash Crimson posted:Scottish Nationalism has nowhere near the same or even comparable levels of bile, venom and poison as English nationalism historically has; the latter is one of the main causes of brexit... Completely agreed, which is why Labour needs to concentrate their energies on localism in England and Wales and work their way up from there. That's how Labour can build a civic nationalist platform for the next election. e: I mean, I've no love for Scottish nationalism, or nationalism in general (because the state as an institution is garbage, especially the nation state) but if the game requires you to be left-wing populists, you have to go about that left-wing populism in the best way possible. Venomous fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 16:12
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CGI Stardust posted:Dr Beastmode: has a tendency to jump on top of things and double down when they later turn out to be wrong, FALC is bad because it ignores Third World issues and climate and a whole load of other stuff (see Pesmarga's post earlier), possibly a grifter but it's hard to tell, also a leading cause of PhD Trutherism in the UK The other issue with Bastani and FALC is that he took the name from an ongoing tendency (left accelerationism) which had far more prominent theorists like Nick Srnicek and Mark Fisher and now insists that actually it's his thing. Inventing the Future is a way better take that doesn't disregard climate or the third world anything like Bastani's take does. This is a major component of why I think he's a grifter: he steals other, better theorists' work and reheats it in a sensationalist way.
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Dec 16, 2019 16:14
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BizarroAzrael posted:Going back to an earlier point, this is the sort of thing I know Bastani for and it seems fine to me, I'm not sure what I'm missing on him. Wasn't sure about hostility to Mason either but I think I've seen it recently. the CU amendment in April should be interpreted in light of Mayxit already committing to CU in the backstop. It was not then, as it would be later, a wrecking amendment that would cause Johnson to pull the deal. The vote was still surprisingly close, but subsequent votes did show that Mayxit did not really have legs in the Commons even if a longer backstop was promised, certainly the ERG would vote against rather than abstain. And then the Euros happened, the ERG hardened its position, and May resigned anyway Bastani despises Mason, Mason was a big advocate of Labour embracing a referendum where Bastani has been waving that CU vote as a banner for the past year https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1111038296468176897 Bastani is a cheerleader... this is not a bad quality if what one wants is snappy talking points for the argument du jour - a righteous anger white noise generator, so to speak. But it can definitely also harbour a sense of unreality - https://twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/700260723910385665 https://twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/916803894793162752 https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1153757324475031552 
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Dec 16, 2019 16:17
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Bastani is a delusional, an absolute melt
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Dec 16, 2019 16:18
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That ScotParl tweet is especially 
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Dec 16, 2019 16:20
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https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1205582914743918592?s=20 bastani feeling the need to point out that this is a fake tweet only highlights the believability of the fake
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Dec 16, 2019 16:20
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:
Strongly agree with all of this. Thanks for saving me from writing it all out. In others news, remember the NHS care.data project where you had to opt out to prevent all your medical records bein collated into once place, then they shut it down, then they restarted it and forced you to opt out a second time (and often didn't bother to tell you about the opt out)? Yeah they're selling all that data to big pharma interests. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/12/12/nhs_england_database/ quote:
Who could possibly have predicted this except everyone who predicted this. Glad to see our mainstream media are picking up on this too, not just the one tech publication that's always had a bugbear for data privacy </sarcasm>
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Dec 16, 2019 16:30
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Literally everyone I know who likes Novara likes it in spite of Bastani
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Dec 16, 2019 16:33
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Go off king https://twitter.com/phi1mccann/status/1206585091172028416?s=20
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Dec 16, 2019 16:37
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:The electorate didn't reject the left or Labour, it loving loved the Conservatives Maybe people want Brexit to be over, the analysis looks like labour leave voters gave up on labour and voted Con. Corbyn was pleasing neither remain nor leave. And those voters fled. Labour got -7.8% vote share from 2017. Lib Dems gained 4.2% but got screwed harder than ever by fptp. quote:
Lib Dems gained 4.2% vote share. People liked what they are offering, at least more than labour. Considering the flight of votes from Labour to LD/Con My own seat went from lib dem for the past 20+ years to conservative. Despite the lib Dems gaining vote share. Just so many voters fled labour to vote conservative it flipped the seat. quote:
Maybe you are putting characteristics onto him you want him to have. I've found him to be terrible in interviews, ingenuine in his Brexit approach (7/10 lmao) and following rather than leading. quote:
You lost the vote. Obviously your grassroots movement is not sufficient. Perhaps not brilliant. quote:
The party doesn't matter. The voters do. quote:
10m people does not an election win. quote:
Something I actually agree with you on.
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