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We know why Angela is a cop because the whole show emphasizes her life driving her towards that but the ending and her relationship with Manhattan has nothing to do with it. Its entirely incidental to the climax of the plot, which would have been similar if she had been a housewife instead. We don't know why Angela is in love with Manhattan, it cuts from her being skeptical of him to her already being in love with him but resenting his powers. We only know it will happen because he told her it will. What should be the emotional crux of the finale happened offscreen. Neither facet of her character gives any real indication that she would want his power, that he would want her to have it, or that she should have it. They started with a strong lead and absolutley failed her on multiple fronts. I've never seen a show kneecap itself so hard so quickly.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:04
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God exists, and she’s a black woman.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:08
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Mulva posted:You traded a disinterested blue man for a blue woman, at least Jon had the decency to gently caress off to space. I don't think the the violent cop will have the same inclination. Both Trieu and Will seem to think Manhattan could have done more, which shows that not even they understand how Manhattan works. Even if he "could" have in a causal sense, he had no inclination to, and becoming increasingly detached and disinterested from human affairs doesn't bode well for a racial justice project. If Angela becomes Angelhattan, then I hope Season 2 opens with her peace-ing out to another galaxy.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:10
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Ballz posted:God exists, and she’s a black woman. And she’s a cop
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Dec 16, 2019 20:12
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zoux posted:You guys have let the ACAB heuristic become so dominant in your minds that you are out here trying to cancel a fictional cop in a different fictional universe. This was a highly metaphorical show, so a literal reading of it, one that includes the assumption of automatic fidelity to our very own reality, is really, really dumb. What? This is pretty clearly in the text of the show itself, like the entire HJ story, or when Laurie asks Angela why she doesn't want her kids to know if she's a cop if she's proud to be one.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:13
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Bushido Brown posted:I think what's most telling is that people are underrating the work the show did in "An Almost Religious Awe" which helped set the show up in some ways as a critique and answer to the novel. Yup, good post. JustaDamnFool posted:Weird mixed message with the negative light with show portraying Trieu gaining super powers to solve racial inequality as being terrible but Abar's assumption of the same power being fine/largly unexamined. If you want to end a show with a character gaining godike powers you need a bit of gorundwork on their own relationship to power first. A lot people initially come away from the comic thinking of Rorschach as the "cool" character. A 90s tv show/even the movie would use him as a focus or central lens/promotional brunt of the show, because he's what people liked. But now, it's more widely understood that Rorschach is pretty hosed up and not worth idolizing. In the same way, a modern examination or contextualization of Watchmen is likely dealing with the same issue, but with Dr. Manhattan. People (and particularly Lindelof in this instance) now come away from the comic with the impression that Dr. Manhattan is a "cool" character. As opposed to the edgy anti-heroism of the 90s that Rorschach embodies, Dr. Manhattan embodies much more post-modern concepts that we find more interesting and mainstream in our modern, prestige storytelling. But that's making the same error as with Rorschach, because the comic doesn't present Jon as anything good, redeemable, or worthy of idolizing. As you point out, he's an hebephile committing genocide who genuinely cannot make connections with others and chooses to abandon the world at the end. Even beyond what he represents (a "realistic" Superman, humanity's love for an ideal strongman ruler), his powers are represented entirely as tragic, and the idea that anyone would want to have them and be like him is insane. The show ignores this in the same way the movie or younger readers ignore the flaws of Rorschach, and tries to use the show to redeem him or make him more than what he was in the comic, which was just a thoroughly bad and irredeemable person (as most of the Watchmen characters are). It's really hosed up if you give it more than a few seconds of thought. Canadian Surf Club fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 20:14
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just another posted:I thought it was the process of becoming Dr. Manhattan that made him disinterested in world affairs? Even if there is a season 2 and even if it involves Lindelof (who said he doesn't think he'll be back in for another round) it would be a severe disservice to continue this story arc. I'd much prefer a different story set in that universe (or even better, leaving well enough alone!)
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Dec 16, 2019 20:14
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zoux posted:You guys have let the ACAB heuristic become so dominant in your minds that you are out here trying to cancel a fictional cop in a different fictional universe. This was a highly metaphorical show, so a literal reading of it, one that includes the assumption of automatic fidelity to our very own reality, is really, really dumb. It's not an ACAB thing more that a "How would this person solve a problem?" thing. Jon was a scientist and was probably more tending toward observing a problem. Angela has used force most of her life to solve problems. Honestly i don't know which would be worse, but i can imagine a cop to be the worse god to solve the worlds problems.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:15
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Wolfsheim posted:We know why Angela is a cop because the whole show emphasizes her life driving her towards that but the ending and her relationship with Manhattan has nothing to do with it. Its entirely incidental to the climax of the plot, which would have been similar if she had been a housewife instead. You don't think she has any unique perspective given her lived experiences, including, e.g., the death of her parents, growing up in an orphanage, and her first-hand betrayal by her cop supervisor (not to mention the experiences of her grandfather, which mirror the last point)? It seems that people are so eager to say nothing in the last three episodes connects to the first six that they willfully blind themselves to the connections between them. Which, is funny, given that they're obvious, and the second most common critique here is that the show treats its audience like it is stupid.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:16
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:A few notes on masks- I disagree here and I'd argue that Jon is wearing a mask and that mask is the body of a dead black man.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:16
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Fragmented posted:It's not an ACAB thing more that a "How would this person solve a problem?" thing. Jon was a scientist and was probably more tending toward observing a problem. Angela has used force most of her life to solve problems. Honestly i don't know which would be worse, but i can imagine a cop to be the worse god to solve the worlds problems. Like I said, I think that getting dr. manhattanized supersedes your mortal moral ideas, but more importantly, I think Dr. M is more of a metaphor or thought experiment than character with easily understood motivations and feelings. So any type of analysis that doesn't take that into account is going to fail, or at least miss the bigger picture. So like "what would X person do with these powers" is irrelevant, and using it as a point of critique (not saying you specifically are doing that) isn't insightful.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:19
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Kaveman posted:I disagree here and I'd argue that Jon is wearing a mask and that mask is the body of a dead black man. Once he goes blue he isn't anymore. They just don't have the rights to Billy Crudup's face so they have to use somebody.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:22
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zoux posted:Like I said, I think that getting dr. manhattanized supersedes your mortal moral ideas, but more importantly, I think Dr. M is more of a metaphor or thought experiment than character with easily understood motivations and feelings. So any type of analysis that doesn't take that into account is going to fail, or at least miss the bigger picture. In the book or the show? He definitely has likes, dislikes in the book, he's alienated from humanity because those desires don't line up with everyone elses (people asking you to solve their problems is tedious, atoms and rocks and science is cool) not because he doesn't have them.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:22
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Bushido Brown posted:You don't think she has any unique perspective given her lived experiences, including, e.g., the death of her parents, growing up in an orphanage, and her first-hand betrayal by her cop supervisor (not to mention the experiences of her grandfather, which mirror the last point)? In relation to the last episode? Not really. Its just her kinda watching things happen and shrugging and eating an egg. That sequence of events plays out pretty much the same whether or not she's a super-cop or just a random chick Manhattan decided to bang. quote:It seems that people are so eager to say nothing in the last three episodes connects to the first six that they willfully blind themselves to the connections between them. Which, is funny, given that they're obvious, and the second most common critique here is that the show treats its audience like it is stupid. It's more that the show undercuts these connections by making it so that both she and her grandfather were just kinda sitting around until Manhattan showed up and told them what to do. It takes away their agency and dilutes the themes by just making them background noise to sci fi time travel asian clone villain goof em ups.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:23
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Zaphod42 posted:Once he goes blue he isn't anymore. They just don't have the rights to Billy Crudup's face so they have to use somebody. So......yes he’s still using the black man’s body.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:24
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The REAL Goobusters posted:So......yes he’s still using the black man’s body. So.... no, canonically in the universe of the show he isn't.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:25
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Wolfsheim posted:In relation to the last episode? Not really. Its just her kinda watching things happen and shrugging and eating an egg. That sequence of events plays out pretty much the same whether or not she's a super-cop or just a random chick Manhattan decided to bang. Yeah, I don't agree with reads of a work that are this intentionally context blind, but thanks for explaining your thoughts.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:26
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massive spider posted:He definitely has likes, dislikes in the book, he's alienated from humanity because those desires don't line up with everyone elses (people asking you to solve their problems is tedious, atoms and rocks and science is cool) not because he doesn't have them. Mmmm I don't agree with that read. I think the only feeling he feels is boredom. In the comic when he's forced into a linear perception of time in issue 11/12 he's exhilarated by it, and as I recall the only strong emotion he expresses as Dr. M. My read on his alienation is due to his omniscience/prescence/potence, directly as a comment on the part of Alan Moore about the idea of a perfectly humanistic Superman. https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1206657372850024448 e: lmao I though Weigel had an account already. zoux fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 20:27
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zoux posted:Like I said, I think that getting dr. manhattanized supersedes your mortal moral ideas, but more importantly, I think Dr. M is more of a metaphor or thought experiment than character with easily understood motivations and feelings. So any type of analysis that doesn't take that into account is going to fail, or at least miss the bigger picture. WIth the Jon character they pretty thoroughly explored the ideas of how becoming a god isolates you to the point where you cease to have human morals and concerns. They could move onto exploring other aspects of godhood, like how you can't "solve" the problem of evil in the world or whatever. Likewise I do think there's potential for Angela to become a different kind of character since the way she obtained the powers were so drastically different. Jon was atomized then had to put himself back together, it's potentially hard to say what that whole process did to his mind. Angela voluntarily accepted the powers from Jon, she could potentially hold onto more of her humanity/perspective since her brain didn't need to be rebuilt by her own disembodied consciousness.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:30
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Wolfsheim posted:In relation to the last episode? Not really. Its just her kinda watching things happen and shrugging and eating an egg. That sequence of events plays out pretty much the same whether or not she's a super-cop or just a random chick Manhattan decided to bang. Dr. Manhattan falls in love with her specifically because she's the kind of person who will fight even when she knows it's a lost cause. I don't think the ending would have just happened for anybody Jon happened to marry.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:31
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NGL I was down for the Hooded Justice stuff but Dr. Manhattan feels like a bridge too far. They basically seemed to abandon the good early season stuff about exploring the black experience in America through the lens of masked vigilantes to focus waay too much on the over the top mad science twisty triple-cross camp. And I grant that I'm a white white boy and not the arbiter of what's Good Representation but having a Jewish Physicist Turned Aloof God-Superman give himself amnesia so he could do blackface and play house seems... IDK not good. Contrived and out of character at best, arguably tasteless at worst. On the balance it was entertaining but I wouldn't be too disappointed if it doesn't get renewed. I think it shot its wad with this story, and should accession it carefully and store it in a freezer behind a painting.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:32
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The Ninth Layer posted:Dr. Manhattan falls in love with her specifically because she's the kind of person who will fight even when she knows it's a lost cause. I don't think the ending would have just happened for anybody Jon happened to marry. To be fair there aren't any scenes where Dr. Manhattan says specifically when, exactly, it is he falls in love with her and then explicitly states why.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:32
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Fragmented posted:It's not an ACAB thing more that a "How would this person solve a problem?" thing. Jon was a scientist and was probably more tending toward observing a problem. Angela has used force most of her life to solve problems. Honestly i don't know which would be worse, but i can imagine a cop to be the worse god to solve the worlds problems. To add to this, what does the show even think about Angela? By giving her God powers in the end and supporting the idea of an active Manhatten its clear that she's supposed to be somehow worthy of the power, and yet the Abar in the show can hardly been seen as a pillar of morality; hell, one of the defining moments of her life is a summary execution in which she idolised the executor. Even if you think the police brutality was okay there's no indication that she wouldn't be corrupted in some way by absolute power; it just feels like the show expects you to support her over Trieu because she's the main character. Trieu's own character doesn't have any depth outside of her meglomania to set her up as a contrast to Abar; she isn't interesting enough for me to feel overly threatend by her possible success, which was supposed to be the main tension of the final episode. All-in-all the conflict over the aqusition of godly powers feels like too large a theme to only really emerge in the last two episodes, and the shows switching of focus to it is entirely to its own detriment.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:34
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https://twitter.com/willmenaker/status/1168958675698036737?lang=en
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Dec 16, 2019 20:35
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JustaDamnFool posted:To add to this, what does the show even think about Angela? By giving her God powers in the end and supporting the idea of an active Manhatten its clear that she's supposed to be somehow worthy of the power, and yet the Abar in the show can hardly been seen as a pillar of morality; hell, one of the defining moments of her life is a summary execution in which she idolised the executor. She's a cop who has seen that other cops were racist and used their cop powers to abuse people (the theme of the show is literally "who watches the watchmen" jesus christ) and found out later that her uncle was also a cop who found out other cops were racist and killed them and stopped being a cop, and her husband was a god who killed tons of people in Vietnam and she grew up in the shadow of all that oppression, her parents died as collateral in those political machinations, and after all that, she's the one given the power. You don't see how that's a little bit poetic justice? You don't see how the show has literally been about Angela from the very beginning? This is HER story. That's the whole point. Its been 9 episodes building Angela into the perfect person who has witnessed all the right things to actually be in this right position to inherit these powers and decide what should be done with them. Someone who simply lived a nice happy easy life wouldn't be in a better position then Angela because they wouldn't truly understand why abusing power and force is wrong. They would be a "better" person but they would be ignorant, and after being Field Generated, they'd just end up like Jon. Uncaring, interested in their own things, disconnected from reality and humanity. Angela is the literal best possible scenario for someone to receive god powers. I don't even know where to start with you guys. I'm still left with "what show were you watching?" Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 20:37
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Me, watching: "I think this police brutality is Ok."
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Dec 16, 2019 20:39
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Don’t worry we will know Will’s thoughts on Watchmen tomorrow
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Dec 16, 2019 20:40
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Will is in a bad place after Corbyn got hosed over so it makes sense he'd find catharsis in the casual murder of dumb racistsBushido Brown posted:Yeah, I don't agree with reads of a work that are this intentionally context blind, but thanks for explaining your thoughts. More like bushido poo poo because that's what your posts are bucko! Guy A. Person posted:WIth the Jon character they pretty thoroughly explored the ideas of how becoming a god isolates you to the point where you cease to have human morals and concerns. They could move onto exploring other aspects of godhood, like how you can't "solve" the problem of evil in the world or whatever. But...they didn't do this. The story is officially over, per the creator, and setting up a big mysterious cliffhanger that you don't know the answer to but hope someone else will retroactively make good is just bad writing. JJ Abrams also did this with the new Star Wars movies and it absolutely shows, those guys are friends right
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Dec 16, 2019 20:41
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JustaDamnFool posted:Trieu's own character doesn't have any depth outside of her meglomania to set her up as a contrast to Abar; she isn't interesting enough for me to feel overly threatend by her possible success, which was supposed to be the main tension of the final episode. This bugged me too. Maybe I missed something but what we know about her: * Preserved her mother with cloning and brain drugs (weird but in the direction of a sort of noble filial piety) * Needed to buy out a farmhouse and played hardball to get it but not through like evil eminent domain seizure or anything: She offered a fortune in cash and a miracle baby. *Helped Abar off her Nostalgia hangover. *Killed a bunch of overt paramilitary white supremacists. Yeah, she's going to kill Manhattan to take his power, but even the most anti-utilitarian mind would at least have to ponder for a moment the moral math of Kill one reluctant absentee God to create paradise on Earth for billions. I'm not convinced Dr. Treiu would have been a malevolent godless, based on the characterization and actions we see. I guess maybe the ambiguity is the point but then that muddles... whatever they were trying to tell us. If your thesis is "Well NO ONE should have that kind of power" then why are we supposed to cheer someone as conflicted and violent as Abar getting it?
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Dec 16, 2019 20:45
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Wolfsheim posted:Will is in a bad place after Corbyn got hosed over so it makes sense he'd find catharsis in the casual murder of dumb racists That tweet is from September 🤐
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Dec 16, 2019 20:46
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Canadian Surf Club posted:The show ignores this in the same way the movie or younger readers ignore the flaws of Rorschach, and tries to use the show to redeem him or make him more than what he was in the comic, which was just a thoroughly bad and irredeemable person (as most of the Watchmen characters are). It's really hosed up if you give it more than a few seconds of thought. JustaDamnFool posted:To add to this, what does the show even think about Angela? By giving her God powers in the end and supporting the idea of an active Manhatten its clear that she's supposed to be somehow worthy of the power, and yet the Abar in the show can hardly been seen as a pillar of morality; hell, one of the defining moments of her life is a summary execution in which she idolised the executor.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:46
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The REAL Goobusters posted:The only good thing about this show. Was the soundtrack. You know what really chaps my rear end, when laurie was telling her idiotic joke to the Corey hotline, the music was crafted around her dialogue. So when she got to her stupid punchline the music cut out to a couple seconds of silence so she could say THEN THE GOD GOT HIT ON THE HEAD BY THE BRICK as if it was a real drop the mic line. Then the music starts back up so we can revel in the awesome joke. The music deserved better
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Dec 16, 2019 20:47
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That’s another stupid Trieu thing - it was her space ship - why didn’t she just land it in the ocean or somewhere she already owns?
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Dec 16, 2019 20:49
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just another posted:in the same way that an ACAB person would recognize that the problem is the institution, not Joe in Precinct 3 there's definitely a lot of people who don't recognize that lol
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Dec 16, 2019 20:49
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The REAL Goobusters posted:That tweet is from September 🤐 Huh did that guy miss an obvious context clue, hard to believe
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Dec 16, 2019 20:50
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I wish you'd stayed banned zouxThe REAL Goobusters posted:That tweet is from September 🤐 This is worse than when someone posts an old trump tweet and for a few minutes I think hes about to declare war on coca cola or something 
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Dec 16, 2019 20:50
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ymgve posted:That’s another stupid Trieu thing - it was her space ship - why didn’t she just land it in the ocean or somewhere she already owns? Then we wouldn’t have gotten that scene with The Clark’s 
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Dec 16, 2019 20:50
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ymgve posted:That’s another stupid Trieu thing - it was her space ship - why didn’t she just land it in the ocean or somewhere she already owns? Its a ship travelling from Jupiter built with years-old technology, being off by a few miles seems reasonable But then I guess SpaceX landing spaceships on platforms makes her look bad 
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Dec 16, 2019 20:51
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Zaphod42 posted:Someone who simply lived a nice happy easy life wouldn't be in a better position then Angela because they wouldn't truly understand why abusing power and force is wrong. They would be a "better" person but they would be ignorant, and after being Field Generated, they'd just end up like Jon. Uncaring, interested in their own things, disconnected from reality and humanity. Angela is the literal best possible scenario for someone to receive god powers. Maybe I'm an idiot but this line of character growth doesn't really seem present in the show. Certainly she has faced and been involved in abuses of power, but there's no indication that she's been prompted to completely turn away from such abuse. Even her active choice to assume god-like powers can be seen as an abuse; she's chosen to become an essentially unaccountable god. It's not hard to see how some people might object to that, regardless of how good her intentions may seem; it's one of the shows own main criticisms of Trieu. Edit: Owlbear Camus posted:If your thesis is "Well NO ONE should have that kind of power" then why are we supposed to cheer someone as conflicted and violent as Abar getting it? It feels like the show bit off more than it could chew by involving Manhatten in the last two episodes. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 20:52
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Wolfsheim posted:I wish you'd stayed banned zoux I have no idea who you are, besides someone who holds five year old forum grudges I guess.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:54
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