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I always forget if I'm supposed to put English or British on forms that ask for my nationality because I really don't give a poo poo either way.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:39
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Azza Bamboo posted:I don't think we should pivot to nationalism but try to explain the progressive policies from a conservative frame of reference, like I was saying with "gently caress businesses that would betray us" "are we not strong enough to take on the corporations" but as I also said it risks coming off as insincere and cringey like when churches put out rap videos that try to inject their faith into appropriated youth culture. I'm certain that there exist (or at least can exist) people who could completely sell this kind of vision "Listen, you gotta pay your fair share - you gotta pay your share, if you're a taxpayer you gotta pay, if you're a company you gotta pay, you need to pay your fair share. If you're a big company and you don't want to pay, you can gently caress off! What we need to do with these firms is we gotta call their bluff. Yeah? They keep whining about how they'll leave and then there will be no businesses left. Well guess what, they're just trying to bully us into submission. Way you deal with bullies is, you look them in the eye and you invite them to loving try it then. Are we not strong enough to do that? What, is the British market too small? Are the people here too poor? No, these big firms, they loving want our business - they want to be here, they will still be here even if their tax goes up by a few percent - they're just trying every trick they know to get out of paying their fair share. Sure, we could fall for their bullshit, if we were suckers. But we're not. Call their bluff - they gotta pay their fair share. You gotta know how to deal with bullies."
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Dec 16, 2019 20:40
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The government has historically used them quite interchangeably. And will probably return to doing so.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:41
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jaete posted:I'm certain that there exist (or at least can exist) people who could completely sell this kind of vision "Are you a bad enough dude to
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Dec 16, 2019 20:46
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I strongly believe that people's immediate relationships with their employer and environment are the best angles of attack. You don't need to be some left wing radical to realise your boss is poo poo and keeps cutting your pay, your landlord it poo poo and keeps taking your pay and you can't do anything to your house.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:49
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Azza Bamboo posted:I don't think we should pivot to nationalism but try to explain the progressive policies from a conservative frame of reference, like I was saying with "gently caress businesses that would betray us" "are we not strong enough to take on the corporations" but as I also said it risks coming off as insincere and cringey like when churches put out rap videos that try to inject their faith into appropriated youth culture. You mean like when Gordon Brown promised British Jobs for British Workers?
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Dec 16, 2019 20:52
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 History Comes Inside! posted:I always forget if I'm supposed to put English or British on forms that ask for my nationality because I really don't give a poo poo either way. Everyone that makes a lot of noise about how they're "ENGLISH not British" seems to be terrible though, and there's no popular "I'm British not English" movement, and most BAME people would say British over English.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:53
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Kraftwerk posted:So looks like RLB is running for labour leadership with Angela Rayner as deputy. I think that's a winning ticket. But then I am a socialist.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:55
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Someone posting the other day about buying the daily mail for the tv guide made me realise the cutoff point for being less likely to be a tory voter isn't age or class or education, but being able to use an EPGGuavanaut posted:I have a piece of paper that says I'm British but gently caress all that says I'm English other than that's the language I select on my phone. History Comes Inside! posted:I always forget if I'm supposed to put English or British on forms that ask for my nationality because I really don't give a poo poo either way. This is English privilege. Personally, I only identify as British when I'm embarrassed or ashamed about something Britain has done.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:59
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marktheando posted:This is English privilege.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:05
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forkboy84 posted:I think that's a winning ticket. But then I am a socialist. Yeah, bit fan of this ticket, though I will say I'm not sure who is gonna be RLB's chancellor - everyone (socialist) who hasn't necessarily wanted RLB for leader has said she'd make a great chancellor, but I have no idea who the follow up choice is if Becky has the big seat
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Dec 16, 2019 21:05
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https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1206620303524278273?s=21 Mark this tweet down for posterity, folks.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:06
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In simpler, dumber, more ignorant times, I had a belt buckle for my jeans that was a cool St George with "British by birth" along the top and "English by the grace of God" along the bottom. Got it in Blackpool where they had similar for Scotland and Wales etc. Now I hate the loving thing and have no idea where it is.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:07
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Random Integer posted:Brit Nationalism seems like a poo poo platform to run on not just morally but also because you will never out flag-wave the Tories. They will always present and be presented as the most proudly Grate Britane party of all even while selling off national assets to anyone who hands them a big enough envelope stuffed with cash. Please enjoy some exciting music as you read this post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qP-NglUeZU Jacob! It's the Twatsignal! Get my costume out of the Thatchcave and saddle up Gove! Right away, sir! Give those plebs hell for me! Bozza Bozza Bozza Bozza Bozza Bozza Bozza Bozza...  
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Dec 16, 2019 21:12
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Why did I start arguing with someone in David Lammy's replies? Now they are saying I am ignoring racism when it's convenient to me because I didn't accept Lammy's comments about Stacy Dooley were racist and that Lammy is a racist.Guavanaut posted:I can't really identify as English either though, other than that I speak it and currently reside there. Is that enough or do you have to have opinions on the War of the Roses? I mean it not mattering is the privilege
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Dec 16, 2019 21:13
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Bundy posted:In simpler, dumber, more ignorant times, I had a belt buckle for my jeans that was a cool St George with "British by birth" along the top and "English by the grace of God" along the bottom. Got it in Blackpool where they had similar for Scotland and Wales etc. This buckle is actually just like the One Ring and this nightmare will only end if you find it and destroy it >:|
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Dec 16, 2019 21:13
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I'd say I think of myself as English and British as well as having a kind of hidden regional nationality We're all burdened with a weird split personality disorder due to the way these hosed up little island tribes got glued together.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:14
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Guavanaut posted:I can't really identify as English either though, other than that I speak it and currently reside there. Is that enough or do you have to have opinions on the War of the Roses? Richard III was their Corbyn and Shakespeare was a pawn of the Tudor establishment.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:15
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Dabir posted:ah, so that's why jo; lost her seat to the SNP the SNP have the same policy, including identity rights extensions to non binary people
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Dec 16, 2019 21:44
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Azza Bamboo posted:I don't think we should pivot to nationalism but try to explain the progressive policies from a conservative frame of reference, like I was saying with "gently caress businesses that would betray us" "are we not strong enough to take on the corporations" but as I also said it risks coming off as insincere and cringey like when churches put out rap videos that try to inject their faith into appropriated youth culture. Like locally sourcing the things you need because it's And capping rent rises because it Or a minimum wage to Part of the conservative frame of reference involves ideas of national loyalty. Going full nationalism is playing with fire, but even trying to come up with a positive sentiment about our national identity seems to provoke a sneer from the left wing and a long list of reasons to be shameful instead. That's off-putting if being British is the only thing you have left that you thought was worth being proud of. Butternubs posted:I'd say I think of myself as English and British as well as having a kind of hidden regional nationality Me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against my neighbour.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:46
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Fundamentally though those things aren't national pride, they're things you care about regardless of where you live or what nation you identify as part of or even whether you do that at all. They're planks of leftism that is explicitly anti nationalist.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:57
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https://twitter.com/JessePi45331178/status/1206184977517428736 Leaked image of the design: 
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Dec 16, 2019 22:00
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surely the lack of a bridge was key in the decision to send them there in the first place
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Dec 16, 2019 22:13
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just realized what this nauseous feeling is, took me a while cos i haven't felt this ill in some time - corbyn aside i actually do not give two shits about labour party drama and i can't stand electoral politics, which is why i never paid attention to who was in what position in labour until 2015. it's dreadful shite having to pretend rebecca long bailey or angela rayner won't get wrecked in an election against boris johnson isn't it. gimme the community outreach and movement building please, i'll keep paying my subs but like gently caress am i wasting time on another 5 years of labour infighting.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:25
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Darth Walrus posted:The question isn't about how good they'll be at campaigning in a general election, weird as that sounds. The question is whether they can direct and inspire a mass movement of half a million people to rebuild its connections with the communities it draws its strength from. Labour needs to actually function as an organisation before it gets its path to power back. This x 100500. Things I've been reading both here and elsewhere - senior staff not listening to activists and analysts, bad support from local branches, local councils being not great to say the least, local branches in safe Tory seats being reduced to a bunch of crumbling tankies - points to some serious institutional problems in Labour as an organization. There's 5 years to change it for the better. Even if the brain and the heart of the party is in the right place, there's no winning if the bones and the muscles are not there.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:35
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gh0stpinballa posted:just realized what this nauseous feeling is, took me a while cos i haven't felt this ill in some time - corbyn aside i actually do not give two shits about labour party drama and i can't stand electoral politics, which is why i never paid attention to who was in what position in labour until 2015. it's dreadful shite having to pretend rebecca long bailey or angela rayner won't get wrecked in an election against boris johnson isn't it. gimme the community outreach and movement building please, i'll keep paying my subs but like gently caress am i wasting time on another 5 years of labour infighting. The biggest problem isn't that the wrong party got elected, It's that the entire system in which these parties exist is broken. As entertaining as it's been lately, UK politics is 90% chest pounding and popularity contests and 10% MPs actually doing whatever their job is supposed to be. The wrong party getting elected is still a big problem but that will continue to happen as long as money controls the media... which it will for as long as the wrong party is in power.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:43
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gh0stpinballa posted:just realized what this nauseous feeling is, took me a while cos i haven't felt this ill in some time - corbyn aside i actually do not give two shits about labour party drama and i can't stand electoral politics, which is why i never paid attention to who was in what position in labour until 2015. it's dreadful shite having to pretend rebecca long bailey or angela rayner won't get wrecked in an election against boris johnson isn't it. gimme the community outreach and movement building please, i'll keep paying my subs but like gently caress am i wasting time on another 5 years of labour infighting. There's tens of thousands of reasonably astute people willing to just do the electoral stuff, it's every good revolutionaries responsibility to act as a pole of attraction to get them into direct activism to build working class power. You do this by maintaining friendly and supportive links to the electorally minded ones including aiding their activities while also pointing out the limitations of their approach to delivering power to the working classes and demonstrating the power and coolness of your approach. Don't sweat the leadership so long as you've got good links to the CLP and their better members basically, either your good work and relationship to Labour gives them the electoral power they want or your link to other working class power organisations draws them into more direct activism and everyone's a winner.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:50
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-workers-rights-environment-climate-change-election-a9248611.html quote:Boris Johnson has fuelled fears that workers’ rights and environmental safeguards will be ditched after Brexit after the government watered down a promise to enshrine them in law. Whoo yeah hellworld nodeal brexit is back on the table baby Awwwoooooooooooooo *wolf noises*
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Dec 16, 2019 22:52
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OwlFancier posted:I strongly believe that people's immediate relationships with their employer and environment are the best angles of attack. You don't need to be some left wing radical to realise your boss is poo poo and keeps cutting your pay, your landlord it poo poo and keeps taking your pay and you can't do anything to your house. It takes a pretty big leap to get from poo poo bosses and poo poo housing to systemic problems though. From experience in trying to discuss it. And especially to the kind of systemic issues we're talking about, and especially when talking with people who necessarily, for their position in society where the conversations are mostly taking place, have at least semi decent relationships with both (i.e. they probably have a job and house).
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Dec 16, 2019 22:57
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You can have a job and a house without thinking that either are good enough.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:58
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Lol boris is going to trash the lives of everyone who isn’t retired or rich
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Dec 16, 2019 23:02
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Quite glad got probated for a week cosim fairly sure I'd have been perma'd on the 13th telling tories I'm going to laugh when the ambulances they phone for never come.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:05
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Looking forward to the DWP declaring us fit for war.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:07
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thespaceinvader posted:It takes a pretty big leap to get from poo poo bosses and poo poo housing to systemic problems though. From experience in trying to discuss it. Discussions are for people who agree to work out the finer points of whatever general issue they're talking about, it's extremely hard to just win someone over with conversation. What develops revolutionary consciousness is communal struggle - you discuss about the best approach to fix the lovely streetlights or get the landlord to repair the roof or whatever, then you act together and win. This builds solidarity between participants because they know they can work together and win, making their lives better (even if you're a bit too leftwing for them) and eventually they start to understand the power that groups like that can wield and then bang suddenly you're talking about what if you all ran society together.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:07
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lol that commentators were starting with the "he can move to the centre on brexit now he's not beholden to the ERG" and he immediately signals we're no dealing
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Dec 16, 2019 23:12
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https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1206591588908093447?s=19 Liberals aren't ready.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:14
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Just think: if the Centrist faction hadn't completely wasted the last 4 years doing absolutely nothing but shriek about Jeremy Corbyn, blinkered cultists and Momentum thugs, they might have been able to use the time productively and have a fresh direction and set of ideas ready to promote. Instead, they finally have what they've wanted for so long (Corbyn stepping down) and they've just got... nothing. There's no figurehead to unite behind, no coherent organisation, no policies. I dunno what my point is except that this massive vacuum where a set of political ideas should be is strikingly odd. You'd think they'd have something but apparently not 
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Dec 16, 2019 23:17
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Gonzo McFee posted:
melanie phillilps here too https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1206694325544988680?s=20
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Dec 16, 2019 23:19
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OwlFancier posted:Fundamentally though those things aren't national pride, they're things you care about regardless of where you live or what nation you identify as part of or even whether you do that at all. They're planks of leftism that is explicitly anti nationalist. They aren't things people care about though, at least not in the ways we present them. Town centres and markets are being hollowed out while Tesco and Amazon clean up. If you're going to go up against Tesco and Amazon, articulating your policies in a way that also makes sense from other perspectives will gain you the allies you need to actually win the fight. Free broadband, while an excellent policy, cannot be articulated in a way that makes sense from any other perspective and that's why it bombed on the doorstep. Brexit is a terrible policy and essentially an elite power grab, but as a chance to save humbled Britain from them that brought it low it made sense to people who were also hurting. Until we can set out our left wing policies in a way that would be coherent with a campaign slogan like "Make Great Britain Again", we're lost to a lot of the electorate.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:25
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gh0stpinballa posted:just realized what this nauseous feeling is, took me a while cos i haven't felt this ill in some time - corbyn aside i actually do not give two shits about labour party drama and i can't stand electoral politics, which is why i never paid attention to who was in what position in labour until 2015. it's dreadful shite having to pretend rebecca long bailey or angela rayner won't get wrecked in an election against boris johnson isn't it. gimme the community outreach and movement building please, i'll keep paying my subs but like gently caress am i wasting time on another 5 years of labour infighting. The ghost of Ralph Miliband is yelling at you "I WARNED YOU ABOUT ELECTORALISM BRO"
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Dec 16, 2019 23:25
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