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Wolfsheim posted:But...they didn't do this. The story is officially over, per the creator, and setting up a big mysterious cliffhanger that you don't know the answer to but hope someone else will retroactively make good is just bad writing. I didn't say they did this. I was saying that it could be an interesting idea to explore if they continue the story (I didn't explicitly state this to be fair but i thought all the "could"s in there would do the trick). Also just to cover my bases when I was saying the Jon character was "thoroughly explored" I was including the comic as well.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:56
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JustaDamnFool posted:Maybe I'm an idiot but this line of character growth doesn't really seem present in the show. Certainly she has faced and been involved in abuses of power, but there's no indication that she's been prompted to completely turn away from such abuse. Even her active choice to assume god-like powers can be seen as an abuse; she's chosen to become an essentially unaccountable god. It's not hard to see how some people might object to that, regardless of how good her intentions may seem; it's one of the shows own main criticisms of Trieu. You just made me realize the show only ever shows police brutality as a useful way to get information that gets results, up to and including in the final episode  Lindelof literally made neoliberalism: the show and its kind of incredible
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Dec 16, 2019 20:57
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Then we wouldn’t have gotten that scene with The Clark’s That reminds me...when people say "well they only had 60 minutes in the finale so they cant be expected to answer everything"...that's a total cop out. The season could've been longer but the writers said nah 9 episodes. Any issues with being rushed in the final episode were self inflicted, and that includes having indulgent scenes like trieu buying the farm (and I don't mean when she got squished lol)
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Dec 16, 2019 20:58
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Zaphod42 posted:So.... no, canonically in the universe of the show he isn't. I don't understand. Are you saying that when he turned blue, in-universe he looked like Jon but to us he still looked like cal? If so this was not properly explained and if not then he is still using the image of a black man.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:59
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Kaveman posted:I don't understand. Are you saying that when he turned blue, in-universe he looked like Jon but to us he still looked like cal? Yes. It wasn't "properly explained" because it really really doesn't matter to anything except some nerds on an internet comedy forum. Before he became Cal appearance, they just don't show his face. He still has Cal's voice though, not Billy Crudup's Jon voice. But that was Jon. Show wise, when he's blue, he's Jon. They could have tried to never show his face in the finale but it would have ruined the ability for him to act or interact with Angela in any significant way. Jon being afraid to die and Cal being Jon all along and loving Angela but also Jon being Jon was important to how it went down.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:00
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Does anyone have direct links to the latest Peteypedia files? I can't access hbo.com, but direct PDF links seem to work.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:02
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Owlbear Camus posted:This bugged me too. Maybe I missed something but what we know about her: To add, the show has Veidt make the specific reference that no one who actively pursues that power should have it, which sums up the show's thesis on Dr. Trieu. In that context, what are we supposed to make of Angela wanting or pursuing it as well?
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Dec 16, 2019 21:04
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Kaveman posted:I don't understand. Are you saying that when he turned blue, in-universe he looked like Jon but to us he still looked like cal? Well even after he went blue, his powers got drained and he became a black man again before getting vaporized. I don't remember if it was clearly explained in episode 8, but my assumption was that he fully made a new body the same way he constructed his blue body in the first place. Which, in that case, it wouldn't make sense for him to "revert" to white in that case, the body he made the first time was blue and the body he made the second time was a copy of a black man (so maybe he turned that body blue just to let Angela know he was himself again?) Zaphod42 posted:Yes. It wasn't "properly explained" because it really really doesn't matter to anything except some nerds on an internet comedy forum. Ehhhh I completely disagree that it was supposed to be a completely different body that just happened to have Cal's face (while also "reverting" fully to Cal moments before his death)
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Dec 16, 2019 21:05
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Canadian Surf Club posted:To add, the show has Veidt make the specific reference that no one who actively pursues that power should have it, which sums up the show's thesis on Dr. Trieu. It is a gift...A gift to the foes of Mordor...
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Dec 16, 2019 21:06
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SimonChris posted:Does anyone have direct links to the latest Peteypedia files? I can't access hbo.com, but direct PDF links seem to work. https://www.hbo.com/content/dam/hbodata/series/watchmen/peteypedia/09/memo-dale-petey.pdf Only one file this week and the only truly important note is that Petey is fired and he kept a jug of oil in his office.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:09
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The idea that Dr. Manhattan has been ineffectual because of some flaw in his personality (and the implication that Angela or anybody else could be a "better" version of him) seems like kind of a misunderstanding of the character. His indifference is part and parcel with being all-knowing and omnipotent.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:10
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zoux posted:It is a gift...A gift to the foes of Mordor... lol
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Dec 16, 2019 21:12
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Canadian Surf Club posted:To add, the show has Veidt make the specific reference that no one who actively pursues that power should have it, which sums up the show's thesis on Dr. Trieu. That's such a loving stupid thing to claim. By that logic Angela is an even worse candidate; she's spent her whole life making sure she can hold power over others. Let's go with the god who beats people to death to solve problems, not the one who makes life to solve problems. She never said "I want it!"
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Dec 16, 2019 21:13
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General Dog posted:The idea that Dr. Manhattan has been ineffectual because of some flaw in his personality (and the implication that Angela or anybody else could be a "better" version of him) seems like kind of a misunderstanding of the character. His indifference is part and parcel with being all-knowing and omnipotent. Yeah, when Will says "good man...could've done more though", that was a misreading on his part as well, and an in universive explanation of why Angela thought that she could wield the One Ring, if you need such a thing. Also that monologue that LGJr. gave in the Dreamland, I had no idea he had that in him. Incredible.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:13
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Zaphod42 posted:Yes. It wasn't "properly explained" because it really really doesn't matter to anything except some nerds on an internet comedy forum. I don’t think so Chief
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Dec 16, 2019 21:27
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zoux posted:Yeah, when Will says "good man...could've done more though", that was a misreading on his part as well, and an in universive explanation of why Angela thought that she could wield the One Ring, if you need such a thing. I'm not sure if we're meant to think Will and Angela are misguided at the end, though. Obviously we can read the scene how we want to independent of authorial intent, but I think we're meant to take those final moments as hopeful.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:32
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https://twitter.com/LByock/status/1206674607148851201
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Dec 16, 2019 21:39
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General Dog posted:I'm not sure if we're meant to think Will and Angela are misguided at the end, though. Obviously we can read the scene how we want to independent of authorial intent, but I think we're meant to take those final moments as hopeful. Lol I literally just finished a review where they made the exact same point. Whereas most of the show explores the generational effects of trauma, it argued that the show wanted to close by saying that hope can also be passed on. I'll admit it's a better read than mine.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:40
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Narcissism can be passed on too, you're basically poison if you have a mentally ill parent and shouldn't be allowed to do things
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Dec 16, 2019 21:49
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General Dog posted:I'm not sure if we're meant to think Will and Angela are misguided at the end, though. Obviously we can read the scene how we want to independent of authorial intent, but I think we're meant to take those final moments as hopeful.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:51
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I just want to say it's certainly something that the Millennium Clock, built to withstand "anything short of a nuclear blast," is destroyed by the frozen squid but the Dreamland Theater is not (nor is a Manhattan booth for that matter).
Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 21:53
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Mameluke posted:Narcissism can be passed on too, you're basically poison if you have a mentally ill parent and shouldn't be allowed to do things Admittedly they didn't explore Lady Trieu's backstory very much, but I can imagine from context that her mother raised her talking about how smart/special she was and potentially how much of an rear end in a top hat her father was (or at least the "gently caress you" she says before insemination would imply she's not a fan). Chronologically the earliest we see her is I believe when she visits Veidt in Antartica, and I imagine at the very least that that episode would have left her with a pretty massive chip on her shoulder. What I'm getting at is that I think that there are other implied reasons for her narcissism than her genes.
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Dec 16, 2019 21:57
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Nail Rat posted:I just want to say it's certainly something that the Millennium Clock, built to withstand "anything short of a nuclear blast," is destroyed by the frozen squid but the Dreamland Theater is not (nor is a Manhattan booth for that matter). Still taking Lady Trieu at her word are we (besides I thought the Clock was the superstructure anyway, not the, whatever magic floaty ball) This is really gonna gently caress you up: a frozen prawn isn't going to fall at a velocity remotely close to destroy any metal structure nor put a perfectly clean hole through a woman's flesh and bone. That hole in her hand? That was a plot hole. zoux fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 22:00
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Zaphod42 posted:Yes. It wasn't "properly explained" because it really really doesn't matter to anything except some nerds on an internet comedy forum. I'm sorry but this is literally just your head-canon. Jon took on the image of a black man and kept that image till he died. I don't know why you keep going on about Billy Crudup either, the show is not in the movie universe so he is irrelevant and they could have easily hired another actor to play original body Jon if they wanted to.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:09
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Kaveman posted:I'm sorry but this is literally just your head-canon. Jon took on the image of a black man and kept that image till he died. I wonder how many people were confused by the squid thing when they changed that for the film. Probably not a lot, that came out like a decade ago.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:18
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General Dog posted:The idea that Dr. Manhattan has been ineffectual because of some flaw in his personality (and the implication that Angela or anybody else could be a "better" version of him) seems like kind of a misunderstanding of the character. His indifference is part and parcel with being all-knowing and omnipotent. It's kind of hilarious that Jon spent months, if not years, explaining how his powers work to Angela, and she just concluded that he's a selfish dummy and she would just do better things if she had powers like that. I think part of the problem with how this show handled Manhattan is that it forgot part of why Manhattan becomes so alienated from everyone in the original comic. In part it's because he's given up on his own free will, but he's also incapable of perceiving humans as meaningful because he's invested in the much broader phenomena of the modern universe. He can't devote his time to sex with Laurie because he's too busy hunting for sub-subatomic particles and proving string theory and poo poo. The show ignored all that and focused only on the plight of a man who can see his own future, making a character who speaks and acts pretty differently from the guy in the books. zoux posted:Still taking Lady Trieu at her word are we (besides I thought the Clock was the superstructure anyway, not the, whatever magic floaty ball) You're assuming the fake-space-squids are made of the same materials as actual squids.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:22
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I'm assuming they aren't made of depleted uranium, especially since they dissolve harmlessly after a few minutes when not frozen.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:24
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Honestly would intermittent squidfall be enough to keep the "bigger fish to fry" detente between the US and USSR going for 33 years? I would think after a couple decades you'd have a handshake deal to knock it off if there's a full scale alien invasion but otherwise get back to proxy wars and brinksmanship.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:28
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Owlbear Camus posted:Honestly would intermittent squidfall be enough to keep the "bigger fish to fry" detente between the US and USSR going for 33 years? Maybe, just maybe, Veidt overstated the odds of nuclear destruction and that even absent the OG squiddening everything would have been fine.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:30
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zoux posted:I'm assuming they aren't made of depleted uranium, especially since they dissolve harmlessly after a few minutes when not frozen. I think they have to be made out of something crazy because they're supposed to be from another dimension. I don't think it'd be crazy to have something hard in there that Ozyamandias managed to make dissolve after a few minutes. It's weird science poo poo invented by a supergenius; I don't think it's crazy that some weird stuff happens when he fucks around with it. I put it in the same "eh, if that's how you say it works, alright" category as Dr. Manhattan being able to put his powers into an egg. Owlbear Camus posted:Honestly would intermittent squidfall be enough to keep the "bigger fish to fry" detente between the US and USSR going for 33 years? Yeah, we see that most people are pretty apathetic to the squids at this point so it can't be holding off warfare. There might be a detente, though, because Redford supports detente (why Ozymandias wants him to be president) and he's seemingly administrated as a strong president for decades straight. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 22:32
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Angela doesn’t think it was bad that Manhattan did what he did during Vietnam or just does not care. I guess she really took his apology for Vietnam seriously. massive spider posted:Keenes aborted plot where he gets both the cops and klan to wear masks and declare themselves heroes to blur the lines between the two was the actual plot that deserved examination. it's actually kinda cool that in both the narrative and the universe of the story, dr. manhattan's bullshit prevented something more interesting from happening
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Dec 16, 2019 22:38
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The idea of Manhattan's powers being transferrable seems weird to me. My take on the character (from the comic) was that his "powers" were really just the knowledge that he gained from re-assembling himself on a molecular level. He's literally the galaxy brain meme. That or his ability to manipulate matter was a unique power that Jon Osterman possessed but would have remained latent forever had he not had to learn to put himself back together. Either way, the experience of being broken down and having to put himself back together seems like an essential pre-requisite to his abilities.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:40
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massive spider posted:Reading Lindlofs post season rolling stone inteview one major misstep that seems apparent to me is that he is openly disdainful of the idea of the Kavelry as villians. Like he admits that they're kind of lame, not that threatening a presence past episode 3 and that Looking Glass can beat up 5 of them at once so who gives a poo poo, get to the real story. He spent his whole time trying to get them to do something interesting. His fart was simultaneously an admission that he'd failed and an expression of disdain toward Manhattan's pseudo-people. Did we ever figure out why Manhattan couldn't make normal people who act like normal people? Did he just prefer to have a world where all the men look alike and all the women look alike and they're all soullessly compliant freaks?
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Dec 16, 2019 22:46
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Dr. Manhattan is a perv whose sole effort to create life ended up being a recreation of his sexual awakening, he probably had them all bone at once
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Dec 16, 2019 22:57
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My only complaint is the variable squid power level, other than that drat fine t.v.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:57
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Harlock posted:Given the overwhelmingly positive critic response I feel like that's unlikely. Once the show turned into a culture war issue with racists, it was going to get strictly positive reviews. Another thing I didn't get is that Manhattan seems like an incredibly boring person with no personality. But in the early episodes, Cal was portrayed as some smooth, cool guy. Where did the personality come from?
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Dec 16, 2019 23:00
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Did we ever figure out why Manhattan couldn't make normal people who act like normal people? Did he just prefer to have a world where all the men look alike and all the women look alike and they're all soullessly compliant freaks?
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Dec 16, 2019 23:00
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Niwrad posted:Another thing I didn't get is that Manhattan seems like an incredibly boring person with no personality. But in the early episodes, Cal was portrayed as some smooth, cool guy. Where did the personality come from? This actually works for me: he's a poindexter because he's a LITERAL know it all with zero connection to humanity. He gives himself amnesia and lives as a man, sculpting himself for a decade to the identity foisted on him: lover of a maniac cop who dresses up as Sister Night and beats the poo poo out of people. So he starts kind of imprinting on that and modelling himself as a cool dude, the kind of guy who lands lady badass, without the baggage of being able to see all her bones and quarks and have every conversation asynchronously other weirdo poo poo.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:10
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Maybe Angela plans to immediately stick the amnesia device in, just go about her life with instinctual emergency teleport powers.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:10
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Preem Palver posted:Because instead of making the show about the actual KKK or being a commentary about white supremacy in the US, it reduces real, lived trauma to lovely comic plot conniving about how a fictional KKK was actually behind everything but it's solved now because Trieu blasted them with lasers. It pisses all over the writing and themes present in the first 2/3 of the series in favor of some "actually, Red Skull was behind the holocaust" levels of dumb fuckery. Yeah seriously, it's reprehensible that a work about comic book superheroes would be so tawdry as to invoke a real historical event with all the baggage and trauma that entails, especially in the name of making some thematic point.  Captain Splendid posted:It was kind of dumb for Adrian to have his password as "Rameses II" 
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Dec 16, 2019 23:10
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