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joebuddah posted:This may have already been asked but 800 pages is a lot to search through. it can happen a few ways. However stop and consider: what natural processes can transport hundreds of tons of sand and mud across areas as large as cities? Probably the most common way material gets buried is during floods. Here's a picture of the aftermath of one modern flood in Chile:  Humans like to live and build on broad flat fertile ground near water. Which unfortunately is also exactly the kind of area vulnerable to flooding. Cities like Rome have always suffered periodic flooding, and if nobody can be bothered to clean up the mud it will just accumulate indefinitely. A big flood can cover hundreds of square kilometers and deposit millions of tons of material, nobody's going to dig all that up by hand. Especially not for the sake of structures that might be ruined anyway. This is what a big flood looks like, once the water goes down there will be mud covering every surface it touched:  The other important way stuff gets buried is because people buried it on purpose. So the obvious example are the Middle Eastern tels, where people just kept building and building on top of generations worth of rubble and old foundations.
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Dec 15, 2019 07:55
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Build on top of the old city that was built on top of the ancient city and you end up with stuff pretty far down.
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Dec 15, 2019 08:16
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Those buildings aren't intact a lot of the time either, if it's a city layers situation. You have a building, it gets demolished. Parts are reused but most of it is just leveled off in place and built on top of, because gently caress trying to move all that off to a dump somewhere. Now you've added a layer. Keep doing that for thousands of years. Things that are buried intact are either buried by nature (volcanoes, rivers) or intentionally (the Domus Aurea).
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Dec 15, 2019 08:20
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Besides all of that deposition in certain enviroments is loving insane. My current project is working in a sandy environment and aeolian depostion fucks everything up since the enviroment is so active. As side note, gently caress everyone who decides a site is two sherds 45 meters apart in that kind of environment. You are bad and you should feel bad. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Dec 15, 2019 |
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Dec 15, 2019 08:45
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I have no idea how accurate it is, but I read that there’s more copper buried in layers under cities than what’s mineable under ground. I was kind of wondering how cities get built upon cities too. The flooding explanations makes a lot of sense.
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Dec 15, 2019 17:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Two sets Isn't that possible? Just make the individual scales lighter and thinner, then put two sets over each other with the second one reversed to the first. Not exactly invulnerable, but since both sets of scales should support each other, also not much weaker than a normal scale armor.
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Dec 15, 2019 17:36
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Libluini posted:Isn't that possible? Just make the individual scales lighter and thinner, then put two sets over each other with the second one reversed to the first. Not exactly invulnerable, but since both sets of scales should support each other, also not much weaker than a normal scale armor. Probably a lot heavier and more cumbersome though.
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Dec 15, 2019 18:42
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Telsa Cola posted:Besides all of that deposition in certain enviroments is loving insane. My current project is working in a sandy environment and aeolian depostion fucks everything up since the enviroment is so active. Deposition in the Montezuma Valley from aeolian processes is ridiculous, we were gaining like, 2cm just in blown dust overnight on stuff we just swept off. Give it 700 years and it'll bury a lot. Seen similar in the Puerco River Valley and Phoenix Basin.
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Dec 15, 2019 19:28
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joebuddah posted:This may have already been asked but 800 pages is a lot to search through. Also, in addition to what other have said, weight will push down anything not resting on bedrock, especially near water and without modern construction techniqes such as deep piling and watertight compensation foundations. Also, anything made out of non burned mudbricks will dissolve to clay over time given rain and wind. So in the middle east they have the aforementioned tells/artificial hills where people have lived in the same village or city for hundreds or thousands of years. Some of them being dozens of meters high due to being inhabited for a good 5000 years 
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Dec 15, 2019 19:29
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KiteAuraan posted:Deposition in the Montezuma Valley from aeolian processes is ridiculous, we were gaining like, 2cm just in blown dust overnight on stuff we just swept off. Give it 700 years and it'll bury a lot. Seen similar in the Puerco River Valley and Phoenix Basin. Yeah its fairly insane. The sand makes easyish excavation though which is a plus. Im working out in the Puerco currently, the ceramics out that way are crazy. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Dec 15, 2019 |
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Dec 15, 2019 19:50
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Two sets This reminds me of the dwarf fortress bug where you could just stack layers and layers of armor on, I think the record I had was an adventurer wearing 30 pieces of chainmail under plate.
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Dec 15, 2019 20:24
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Zudgemud posted:Also, in addition to what other have said, weight will push down anything not resting on bedrock, especially near water and without modern construction techniqes such as deep piling and watertight compensation foundations. seeing the citadel in person was a bucket list item I didn't even know about until I got there
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Dec 15, 2019 20:30
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Telsa Cola posted:Yeah its fairly insane. The sand makes easyish excavation though which is a plus. Puerco of the West or Puerco of the East? Though what you say about ceramics applies to both, I found a small site there that had incredible ceramic diversity for an, at most, 6 rooms and a kiva farmstead near Holbrook. Cibola White Ware, Puerco Valley Red Ware, Cibola and Puerco Valley Gray Ware, some Little Colorado and Tusayan White Ware, heck, even a possible Hopi utility ware. KiteAuraan fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 15, 2019 |
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Dec 15, 2019 21:18
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HEY GUNS posted:IMAGINE being the un's rice book guy. What a calm and data oriented existence They probably have to deal with raving nationalists who want to declare that their sacred ancient people invented it first.
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Dec 15, 2019 21:41
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I've literally read a story about how rice cultivation spread from Japan to China.
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Dec 15, 2019 22:01
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Also, isn't there an ever present issue in the ancient world of people just dumping trash on streets? I seem to recall discussions here that in some places streets have risen enough on top of accumulated refuse that things that used to be ground level are now basements.
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Dec 15, 2019 22:46
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Mr. Nice! posted:Also, isn't there an ever present issue in the ancient world of people just dumping trash on streets? I seem to recall discussions here that in some places streets have risen enough on top of accumulated refuse that things that used to be ground level are now basements.
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Dec 15, 2019 23:03
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That wasn't dumping trash randomly the city itself was regraded etc. and also burned down and built on top of.
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Dec 15, 2019 23:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Two sets I Read Somewhere* that some Roman cavalry had a segmentata variant where the plates overlapped in the opposite direction to defend against upward thrusts. * Some Book or possibly Article, Some Dude(tte), After the Printing Press but Before the Internet.
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Dec 16, 2019 01:24
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Jack2142 posted:That wasn't dumping trash randomly the city itself was regraded etc. and also burned down and built on top of. Yeah. For a smaller scale variant from the US Southwest, we often find trash washed into abandoned old houses as sheetwash or trash mounds eroding. Though there is the old "abandoned house is now a trash dump area" but that is a designated area thing and they periodically burnt the top to make the mound less nasty. At Teotihuacan I recall they find organic residue stains with higher phosphate content in apartments, usually in some inconspicuous area, but the trash itself seems to be burnt away entirely or rots through time. For a city example.
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Dec 16, 2019 01:31
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Is this cave painting humanity’s oldest story? nature.com/11 December 2019 "Indonesian rock art dated to 44,000 years old seems to show mythological figures in a hunting scene." .... "A cave-wall depiction of a pig and buffalo hunt is the world’s oldest recorded story, claim archaeologists who discovered the work on the Indonesian island Sulawesi. The scientists say the scene is more than 44,000 years old. The 4.5-metre-long panel features reddish-brown forms that seem to depict human-like figures hunting local animal species. Previously, rock art found in European sites dated to around 14,000 to 21,000 years old were considered to be the world’s oldest clearly narrative artworks. The scientists working on the latest find say that the Indonesian art pre-dates these." Pretty sure we haven't found it all yet: World's Oldest Hashtag: Earliest Known Drawing Found in South African Cave haaretz.com/Sep 12, 2018
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Dec 16, 2019 01:51
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Mr. Nice! posted:Also, isn't there an ever present issue in the ancient world of people just dumping trash on streets? I seem to recall discussions here that in some places streets have risen enough on top of accumulated refuse that things that used to be ground level are now basements. And earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis, oh my (Minoa and Santorini).
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Dec 16, 2019 01:57
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Otteration posted:Is this cave painting humanity’s oldest story? there's been a lot of cool research on early humans coming out of SE Asia lately. Tons of cool rock art keeps getting discovered. Makes sense I guess when they have such big awesome caves. KiteAuraan posted:Yeah. For a smaller scale variant from the US Southwest, we often find trash washed into abandoned old houses as sheetwash or trash mounds eroding. Though there is the old "abandoned house is now a trash dump area" but that is a designated area thing and they periodically burnt the top to make the mound less nasty. I'm glad you brought up sheetwash since looking back I think I over emphasized flooding as an extreme depositional event. There's a mistake people often make in that they assume the ground under their feet is something fixed in place, a constant and immovable thing. You don't need a flood for water to bury stuff in sediments, because the earth in hills and mountains are just constantly flowing down hill. Just a normal light rain can carry mud onto stuff in a low point, I'm sure any homeowners here who've struggled with water issues can relate. Generally what buries human stuff are the same natural forces that create all sedimentary deposits. Wind, Water, and gravity.
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Dec 16, 2019 02:12
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Squalid posted:
I bet they’re really glad they changed their name before dropping their first album.
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Dec 16, 2019 02:30
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Mr. Nice! posted:Also, isn't there an ever present issue in the ancient world of people just dumping trash on streets? I seem to recall discussions here that in some places streets have risen enough on top of accumulated refuse that things that used to be ground level are now basements. In Underground Atlanta, street level was raised considerably because of the need to cross over the railroad tracks. Wikipedia posted:By 1910, the intense railroad activity and development in the area led to the erection of several iron bridges to accommodate pedestrian and automotive traffic across the railroad tracks. Atlanta architect Haralson Bleckley proposed to cover over the tracks entirely with a ferroconcrete platform on viaducts in 1909; as part of the contemporary City Beautiful trend, the platform would be used for boulevards and public plazas. Although Bleckley's plan was never realized, Plaza Park (in the north block of the four-block Underground Atlanta district) was eventually built in 1948[1][4] and later demolished and rebuilt as Peachtree Fountains Plaza.
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Dec 16, 2019 04:40
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https://twitter.com/optimoprincipi/status/1206664583567626240?s=21
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Dec 17, 2019 12:19
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Empires rise and fall, but the drip is eternal
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Dec 17, 2019 14:57
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So that's the 3rd century version of the final scene of Romancing the Stone.
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Dec 17, 2019 20:21
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Sobek is not going to be happy about this one.
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Dec 17, 2019 23:17
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Clearly came from the inventory of Serpens Nudus
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Dec 17, 2019 23:56
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KiteAuraan posted:Puerco of the West or Puerco of the East? Though what you say about ceramics applies to both, I found a small site there that had incredible ceramic diversity for an, at most, 6 rooms and a kiva farmstead near Holbrook. Cibola White Ware, Puerco Valley Red Ware, Cibola and Puerco Valley Gray Ware, some Little Colorado and Tusayan White Ware, heck, even a possible Hopi utility ware. West, and yeah that about matches what we have been seeing. One of my professors wrote one of the major books for the region which was helpful.
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Dec 18, 2019 02:27
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KiteAuraan posted:Puerco of the West or Puerco of the East? Though what you say about ceramics applies to both, I found a small site there that had incredible ceramic diversity for an, at most, 6 rooms and a kiva farmstead near Holbrook. Cibola White Ware, Puerco Valley Red Ware, Cibola and Puerco Valley Gray Ware, some Little Colorado and Tusayan White Ware, heck, even a possible Hopi utility ware.
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Dec 18, 2019 02:51
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Nessus posted:Could this person have been a collector? Does stuff like that ever get proposed as an explanation for weird one-offs like that? Heirloom pots sometimes get brought up as a thing, but that amount ceramic variety is typical for the region which is kinda crazy. Collector is probably unlikely, nothing really points to that unless that have a poo poo ton of uncommon or exotic ceramics in a clear residental context, and even then thats iffy. Kids get brought up a bunch as explanations for weird or shittly made things that are found. The impact of children on the archaeological record was also ignored for a long rear end time so there is some interesting stuff there. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 03:06
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Patricia Crown did some recent work and found a decent bit of Puerco Valley Red Ware was making its way to Pueblo Bonito, so being tied into that Chaco network probably helped at this site. My rough date estimate is CE 1000-1100 or so, based on what isn't there as much as what is. Also, which book if you don't mind me asking? I have wanted a better dive into the area than the outline in Hays-Gilpin and van Hartesveldt's ceramic manual.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:19
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KiteAuraan posted:Patricia Crown did some recent work and found a decent bit of Puerco Valley Red Ware was making its way to Pueblo Bonito, so being tied into that Chaco network probably helped at this site. My rough date estimate is CE 1000-1100 or so, based on what isn't there as much as what is. Its Hays-Gilpin's book, as far as I am aware thats the most comprehensive book for the region, though I have seen some papers here and there that dive a little deeper in certain ways. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 03:32
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Thanks! It is interesting how so many of these places aren't deeply studied, because they're periphreal now, to modern population centers. If it weren't for the Great Houses, Chaco Canyon would probably be as understudied as the Puerco and Patayan, just be virtue of being so remote now, and since so much is done through CRM. I often wonder how much CRM biases interpretations and how much the practices of the field bias data collection. It is hard to truly randomnly test a site if the contract is only for 7th St. to 6th St. and no further south than Van Buren, as a thought case.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:44
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KiteAuraan posted:Thanks! Im out doing CRM right now since I'm somewhat burnt out from academia. It's definitely been an interesting adjustment since we have both severe spatial and time constraints, more so then I was used to. Road survey is an excellent example because the APE can be as tiny as like 10-15 meters from the Road centerline and outside that you just generally don't care unless a site bleeds in or out of that area. Testing all depends on the contract and the type of working being done that required them to hire us for compliance. Sometimes you just do pedesterian survey through an area and thats it, which can obviously cause one to miss things especially if there is heavy pine duff and such. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 05:20
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Nessus posted:Could this person have been a collector? Does stuff like that ever get proposed as an explanation for weird one-offs like that? Interested in this as well. A martial culture like the romans, one would think they took mementos from defeated enemies - either because it was exceedingly good quality, or served to remind them of a triumph, which again increases prestige of the wielder.
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Dec 18, 2019 14:07
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They did, they hung stuff up in their houses and it became a permanent part of the decor, even if you sold the property
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Dec 19, 2019 00:28
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I hear that they even used the skulls of their enemies, up in the good bits of the Empire.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:16
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