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No Mods No Masters posted:It seems highly non obvious to me that they stole from dark empire vs the rival explanation, that they both drew from lovely obvious ideas independently. Especially since it’s not at all clear JJ or chris terrio are willing/able to read cuntman.net posted:personally if i was him i wouldnt want to be reminded i came up with something that dumb All fair, imo Raccooon posted:Still think the biggest problem with TLJ (at least for the final movie) is that it ended with no real hook. For me it was an alright movie but felt like an ending. In a slightly different context, that final shot of the kid looking up at the stars having heard about the Jedi would be the literal perfect note to end the franchise on, if you couldn't just be satisfied with the party at the end of RotJ. Like you might want the wider context to be a bit happier and more final, but that would've been a good note to close the whole thing out on. Gumball Gumption posted:There really is no win with it. Either you didn't like the TLJ and it killed your enthusiasm or you did like the TLJ and have watched them signal that they were undoing a lot of the things established in that movie. Yep, I liked TLJ well enough for what it was (a director actually trying to do something with a zombie franchise that was resurrected purely for producing more toys and bric-a-brac, and had something to say about the nature of our attachment to things) but it would only really work long-term if the rest of the sequel trilogy creative staff were willing to full-on, all-grease KFC Double Down™ on what TLJ did and follow some of its ideas to logical conclusions and further examine the nature of how we relate to things like Star Wars and what mythology means to us (which was the one creative seed TFA planted). The instant, the very picosecond, I heard that Abrams was back for 9, I knew absolutely none of this would happen and everything Johnson did would be dumpstered and they'd flail around for something else, especially thanks to Fisher having passed away.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:22
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SpaceDrake posted:Yep, I liked TLJ well enough for what it was (a director actually trying to do something with a zombie franchise that was resurrected purely for producing more toys and bric-a-brac, and had something to say about the nature of our attachment to things) but it would only really work long-term if the rest of the sequel trilogy creative staff were willing to full-on, all-grease KFC Double Down™ on what TLJ did and follow some of its ideas to logical conclusions and further examine the nature of how we relate to things like Star Wars and what mythology means to us (which was the one creative seed TFA planted). Yeah, TLJ was more disappointing than outright bad to me. It flip-flopped on all the interesting directions it tried to go in during the last 30-45 minutes of the movie, which was bad enough. Then TROS turned out to be Abrams and not Johnson so there's no way anything it tried to do was going to be retained. That's the theme of this trilogy, really. Disappointment.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:24
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I know the subverting expectations thing is a RLM meme now, but at the very least TLJ ended with the audience able to say, "Oh poo poo I didn't expect that, I wonder where they're going to take it in the finale." The fact that they'd rather not put any effort into continuing from where the previous movie went is some hack poo poo.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:36
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Pollyanna posted:Yeah, TLJ was more disappointing than outright bad to me. It flip-flopped on all the interesting directions it tried to go in during the last 30-45 minutes of the movie, which was bad enough. Then TROS turned out to be Abrams and not Johnson so there's no way anything it tried to do was going to be retained. this. my big problem with it was TLJ put themes above story and while the movie works consistantly thematically, it does so with massive sacrifice to story. you have 1 big strong plotline and 2 weaker ones. they all tie together well enough and there were no major plot holes, it just didnt work as well because all of the characters actions were tied to making it work thematically than a satifying story. like yeah i liked what the did with luke and rey and kylo and snoke(which this movie will probably gently caress up) and but poe/holdo/finn/rose plot sucked rear end. the other problem is every moron took the wrong lesson from it of "let the past die" and basically used that as a reason to talk about how great the movie was. like your not supposed to agree with kylo and he isnt right, he is projecting because he is still angry and hates himself because he was let down by every father figure he ever had and says "gently caress it burn them all" and he wants rey there to be his lackey because he almost sees her as person compared to everyone else. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 03:36
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Honestly if TLJ ends with Kylos hand outstretched this movie would have a lot more hype. The implication is that Luke has to come out of hiding to save his gently caress ups. The movie even looked like thats exactly where it is going then just swerves away from it. It would have been the best Star Wars movies since ESB if had done that. Raccooon fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 03:38
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weekly font posted:I know the subverting expectations thing is a RLM meme now, but at the very least TLJ ended with the audience able to say, "Oh poo poo I didn't expect that, I wonder where they're going to take it in the finale." The fact that they'd rather not put any effort into continuing from where the previous movie went is some hack poo poo. Take what? There were no cliffhangers at the end of TLJ.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:46
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this. my big problem with it was TLJ put themes above story and while the movie works consistantly thematically, it does so with massive sacrifice to story. you have 1 big strong plotline and 2 weaker ones. they all tie together well enough and there were no major plot holes, it just didnt work as well because all of the characters actions were tied to making it work thematically than a satifying story. like yeah i liked what the did with luke and rey and kylo and snoke(which this movie will probably gently caress up) and but poe/holdo/finn/rose plot sucked rear end. actually you're not supposed to agree with kylo but he is still right despite that, he has reached the correct conclusion that this is just a cycle that's going to continue until something new arises from the ashes of the internally unstable republic-empire-republic
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Dec 18, 2019 03:46
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Raccooon posted:Honestly if TLJ ends with Kylos hand outstretched this movie would have a lot more hype. The implication is that Luke has to come out of hiding to save his gently caress ups. I agree. If the movie had irised out at Rey considering Kylo's hand, that would have been a perfectly good ending. Unfortunately, it's like Disney mandated adding another 30-45 minutes to the film to go "LOL JUST KIDDING gently caress YOU BUY OUR poo poo".
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Dec 18, 2019 03:47
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Pollyanna posted:I agree. If the movie had irised out at Rey considering Kylo's hand, that would have been a perfectly good ending. Unfortunately, it's like Disney mandated adding another 30-45 minutes to the film to go "LOL JUST KIDDING gently caress YOU BUY OUR poo poo". I suspect that is the movie Rian Johnson wanted to make and Disney was like gently caress no Rey can't be anything other than perfect hero.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:54
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Shaocaholica posted:Take what? There were no cliffhangers at the end of TLJ. You had to assume going into TLJ that they were setting up Episode 9 to be a boilerplate remake of Return of the Jedi with Snoke as the Emperor, Rey as Luke and Ren as Vader. With Snoke dead and a weird will they/won't they thing with Rey/Ren plus the Resistance wiped out and Luke dead, expectations were indeed subverted. It seemed like they couldn't just remake Jedi. And then they did. 
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Dec 18, 2019 03:55
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How amazing would have been a scene of Luke showing up to save his students at a pivotal moment. Overcomes his trauma of his failures to do the right thing. But alas.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:58
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Personally I'm happy for the existence of these movies because they set up the next great Star Wars Trilogy: The Auralnauts version of the new films.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:00
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Everything I've heard about Rise of the Skywalker so far has powerful At World's End energy.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:01
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If people are really thinking about things, they should understand that these films have been hosed up since the very start. We'll ignore what everyone already knows, that not having a plan and switching directors was a big problem. But even then, the fact that Disney stopped Rinzler from putting out his Making Of books should make it abundantly clear that there have been severe issues during production. They were there even in TFA, from Abrams wanting more time to finish the film, the awkward reshoots, the excision of Constable Zuvo, the death and resurrection of Poe (how would that third act have gone without him?), Hosnian Prime being a product of ADR, and the hints of foreshadowing for where the story might go. "This will begin to make things right" stands now as the most laughable line in the whole franchise. Is Johnson to blame for anything? Well, who the gently caress knows. Johnson and Disney insist there was no plan and no notes given to him, which Abrams denies. Johnson did a lot of neat things with TLJ but was still stuck to TFA's poor setup. But even in TLJ, you had the aforementioned thing of Finn and Poe being split up with Rose and Holdo being introduced late in the production. The pre-last minute plot of TLJ was leaked and it matches to what Johnson says were those last minute alterations. It was clearly a Disney decision, probably to get that China Money, but Johnson was happy to fall on the corporate sword with the excuse that he added Rose because he thought Finn and Poe were 'too similar.' ROTS sucks, but people were kidding themselves if they ever thought Disney was going to follow on from TLJ. Even in TFA, the most interesting ideas were being walked back - just look at Finn! A Stormtrooper rebellion should've been the easiest thing to fit into these films. At this point, it's hard to figure out what changed during production or what was never planned. Remember all that early buzz about how ROTS was an adventure film about the core cast going on an adventure to broadcast some kind of message? Whatever happened to that? Matt Smith was either cut from the film, or a cover for Ian McDiarmid. Disney went into this trilogy with no plan and seemed to bank on the idea that the fanbase hated the prequels and hated Lucas. I think it's telling (and sad) that Lucas didn't attend the premiere for the 'end of the Skywalker Saga.' But I think Disney ultimately failed to account for the sheer mythological catchet that Star Wars holds. They tried to bank on it hard for the ROTS marketing but that was after so many people had been disappointed with TLJ and Solo. Probably the biggest storytelling issue of this trilogy was relegating Luke's Academy and everything that happened there to exposition and conflicting accounts when it was, perhaps, the most pivotal aspect of the sequel trilogy story. It's practically the most important event of the whole narrative - what did Luke see in Kylo, how did Snoke contact him, what exactly happened on that night? And, for all the vaunted story group (what a marketing coup that was) it appears that that new EU is offering another take on things that conflicts with what TLJ said. Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 04:07
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Davros1 posted:https://twitter.com/JennaBusch/status/1206820405027074048?s=20 Wait I recognize the name Mark Ellis These people were the ones doing the Denny's/Solo tie-in promotion werent they? loving gross
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Dec 18, 2019 04:11
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weekly font posted:You had to assume going into TLJ that they were setting up Episode 9 to be a boilerplate remake of Return of the Jedi with Snoke as the Emperor, Rey as Luke and Ren as Vader. With Snoke dead and a weird will they/won't they thing with Rey/Ren plus the Resistance wiped out and Luke dead, expectations were indeed subverted. It seemed like they couldn't just remake Jedi. The end of TLJ looks like it's still setup for RotJ, only with Kylo setup act as both Vader and Emperor. Not all that subverted.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:13
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SW collapsing under the weight of its acronyms.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:14
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nessin posted:The end of TLJ looks like it's still setup for RotJ, only with Kylo setup act as both Vader and Emperor. Not all that subverted. I mean it could have easily been Rey and Kylo duoed with Luke having to come back to save them. It would have been similar in that Luke is attempting to save two Vaders I guess but still not a remake of ROTJ. poo poo the title would have even made more sense then. Raccooon fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 04:17
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Raccooon posted:Still think the biggest problem with TLJ (at least for the final movie) is that it ended with no real hook. For me it was an alright movie but felt like an ending. TLJ had we gonna see Luke and TRJ had how they going to get Han back and the big final confrontation with the emperor.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:18
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https://twitter.com/stefabsky/status/1207015587752398850
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Dec 18, 2019 04:22
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I binged all of Game of Thrones in November for the first time Inevitably seeing RoS with my family over the holidays Watching two franchises die in two months is quite a ride
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Dec 18, 2019 04:24
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Everything I've heard about Rise of the Skywalker so far has powerful At World's End energy. How can I still hate something I barely remember?
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Dec 18, 2019 04:26
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What I’m hearing is that trying to make an interesting movie is wasted on Star Wars.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:29
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Everything I've heard about Rise of the Skywalker so far has powerful At World's End energy. My brain can't differentiate between Dead's Man's Chest and At World's End. At Worlds End feels like a remake of Dead's Man's Chest. 4 and 5 are better solely on the fact that I can remember what their plots were.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:29
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:I binged all of Game of Thrones in November for the first time whats funny is its for similar but opposite reasons too. SW had no plan going in and it shows. GOT had a plan and they stuck with it even when they ran out source material and the stuff no longer matched the books but they were unwilling to change course.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:36
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Everything I've heard about Rise of the Skywalker so far has powerful At World's End energy. At first I thought you meant The World's End and was confused and annoyed. But even still you're wrong, while the Pirates sequels were a mess, JJ could never create a spectacle like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsloEFp7Bk Bless you Gore Verbinski. 
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Dec 18, 2019 04:39
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yet again I call for Shane Carruth to be given total control of this franchise. Or James Wan. Either is good.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:42
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saw some of the ending spoilers. holy gently caress thats some dumb bad poo poo. hope it works better in context.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclkIJ2_IAQ I’m just glad this video is now audio canon
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Dec 18, 2019 04:45
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FlamingLiberal posted:That was the biggest problem for me. The movie just ends with 'welp, not sure what we're going to do now' but somehow in ROTS the Resistance has a giant fleet? There was no setup for anything. So now they're having to drag Palpatine back in and retroactively turning him into the real threat, when I would have preferred if they made Kylo the main villain. The problem is that they just made him too whiny and you never take him seriously as a threat. Vader was really scary in how he was basically unstoppable and just acted like everyone was beneath his power. Then when he clowns on Luke in ESB it just reinforces how big of a threat he is and how Luke is just totally overmatched. You never get any moments with Kylo where he seems any more threatening than a moody teenager. And the big problem is, it actually would be easy to "fix" this by having him be a moody teenager who eventually gets pushed to an edge and he isn't going to take it anymore!... and then you realize he's an incredibly powerful force sensitive, he actually goes the Star Wars equivalent of Super Saiyan, and he starts being able to lay waste to dudes in ways that Vader never did. Force Boomeranging a saber to cut a dozen people in half at a time, shocking them until they catch fire, using telekinesis to straight up crush chests or rip limbs off - you could make a Force user who has genuinely lost their poo poo absolutely terrifying if you wanted to, and hammer home that in some ways, Anakin/Vader showed restraint even at his worst and was perhaps even, in the Rebellion time frame, an older guy hobbled by massive injury and invasive cybernetics. The EU stuff has, at times, leaned on ideas similar to this, particularly some of the ~video games~. The problem comes from this: escalating the violence in that fashion, escalating it beyond what Vader did in the OT, goes beyond the franchise's intended rating of PG-13. Any logical escalation of Jedi power runs into the issue that a very great deal of it would involve truly brutal violence; the entire idea of the Dark Side and the Sith even more or less calls for it. The various non-movie projects have gotten away with this for various reasons (including a number of games just going ahead and eating the R-equivalent rating) but Disney, for a multitude of reasons, decided that wasn't an option. So any kind of escalation of Ren's power, any kind of proof he's not just a whiny teen, has to happen within the framework of the guidelines for PG-13 content. And the films have struggled with this. You can kind of see Johnson trying to make it work in TLJ... but the fights in that are still tightly plotted and choreographed (and, perhaps, edited like hell) to be PG-13, and as a result, there's just hard limits on what Ren can do that isn't literally re-hashing what Vader did (and, moreover, Vader had the benefit of "PG" being a lot broader when ESB and RotJ were made). This is way more  than the sequels probably deserve but production stuff like this is interesting to talk about and it's curious to see what kind of limits Disney imposes upon itself in its quest for Merchandising Dollars and what effect that has on the actual content produced. It will be an interesting conundrum going forward, albeit one I think was largely "sorted out" prior to the Disney acquisition.Pollyanna posted:What I’m hearing is that trying to make an interesting movie is wasted on Star Wars. I still dunno if I'd truly go that far - merch franchises can and do often produce genuinely thought-provoking works, and even a number of the pre-acquisition Star Wars products were pretty compelling - but with the way the sequel trilogy was managed, it would've been a challenge at best to produce something thoughtful and meaningful. Johnson tried his best, but even it had a lot of issues. It's possible you could make a good film post-Rise, but there might be a compulsion from corporate to try and handle the "baggage" of Rise.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:45
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SpaceDrake posted:And the big problem is, it actually would be easy to "fix" this by having him be a moody teenager who eventually gets pushed to an edge and he isn't going to take it anymore!... and then you realize he's an incredibly powerful force sensitive, he actually goes the Star Wars equivalent of Super Saiyan, and he starts being able to lay waste to dudes in ways that Vader never did. Force Boomeranging a saber to cut a dozen people in half at a time, shocking them until they catch fire, using telekinesis to straight up crush chests or rip limbs off - you could make a Force user who has genuinely lost their poo poo absolutely terrifying if you wanted to, and hammer home that in some ways, Anakin/Vader showed restraint even at his worst and was perhaps even, in the Rebellion time frame, an older guy hobbled by massive injury and invasive cybernetics. The EU stuff has, at times, leaned on ideas similar to this, particularly some of the ~video games~. I one argued that a better end to the fight in TFA, since it ends with them being split apart anyway by the planet crumbling to make that Kylo's doing. Like... he's unable to get the job done, he's bleeding out, for all his sacrifice, his power hasn't grown at all, and he just snaps, and corny as it would be, DBZ power up screaming tearing the planet apart from jut uncontrolled force power. Silly? Absolutely. A force user who's unchecked anger and emotions can tear a planet apart and cause an earthquake? Still incredibly dangerous.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:06
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well why not posted:yet again I call for Shane Carruth to be given total control of this franchise. Or James Wan. Either is good. Literally anyone being given creative control of the franchise would probably have stopped this from happening. Like I don't think JJ is particularly good at crafting satisfying narratives, but if he got all 3 I think things would have turned out better. And I liked TLJ. If you are going to make a trilogy though you can't really wing it and constantly change the moving parts. Someone needs to be directing the overall vision of the thing, and at the end of the day here it looks like....nobody really was.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:09
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The biggest problem is everyone who isn't Lucas thinks Force = Superpowers, which isn't the case. Even he realized that relying on "The Force" for storytelling was too much of a crutch and limited its ability and what it can do. I mean, think about Vader, the most powerful Force user. The most destructive act we see him do using his powers is ... destroying the medical equipment out of anguish when he learns Padme is dead. In the OT, he chokes a couple of guys, throws some crates at Luke, and that's it. Lucas was very careful not to just make the films about escalating superpowers.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:14
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SpaceDrake posted:It's possible you could make a good film post-Rise, but there might be a compulsion from corporate to try and handle the "baggage" of Rise. No, don’t, just move on. 900 years have passed since blah blah whatever, dump as much baggage as possible without totally losing everything Star Wars has.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:14
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I hope there’s big explosions due to Sheev getting detonated. Big scary explosions. RIP The Senate.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:16
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they could have written all three movies in advance instead of doing it on the fly. not final drafts or whatever, you know what i mean
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Dec 18, 2019 05:16
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There's so many places they could've gone following TFA. Maybe the most interesting part of the first film was the idea that both Rey and Kylo were neophytes to the Force. So, even a pretty basic idea of having the second film be 'Luke trains Rey, Snoke trains Kylo' could be intriguing. Then, during the final confrontation, Rey flips dark because she's mad as hell (Ridley plays her with this powerful fury, after all) and Kylo flips light because, poo poo, he killed his dad and nothing helps - and you go from there. Even have them kill Snoke then and there, who gives a poo poo. But I honestly think Disney mandated that Rey had to be a bland 'inspiring' heroine.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:17
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Mulva posted:Literally anyone being given creative control of the franchise would probably have stopped this from happening. Like I don't think JJ is particularly good at crafting satisfying narratives, but if he got all 3 I think things would have turned out better. And I liked TLJ. If you are going to make a trilogy though you can't really wing it and constantly change the moving parts. Someone needs to be directing the overall vision of the thing, and at the end of the day here it looks like....nobody really was. I mean blatantly, no one was in charge. There was no overall "Okay, we have a three act story we want to tell" They tear up the EU to give film makers the freedom to not be bound by events and timelines that happened in it, and then they sorta realized they didn't have an idea. Even TLJ like... it 'subverted expectations' but that only works on the meta level. TLJ still feels like a movie aimed at the fans rather than telling a story... actually that's a really good summation for all these films. It has the modern film entry problem where... things happen to reference the thing that happened before. How many times did they go to the well on "Stares forlornly into the distance"? They do it at the end of this one and they did it in TLJ... Did they do it in TFA? I think they did but I don't remember. Everything in TLJ is essentially "Well fans think X is going to happen, so let's do Y. Fans have an expectation of the Noble Smuggler so let's have an Ignoble Smuggler" And then the question that pops in my head is... why have a smuggler at all? Davros1 posted:The biggest problem is everyone who isn't Lucas thinks Force = Superpowers, which isn't the case. Even he realized that relying on "The Force" for storytelling was too much of a crutch and limited its ability and what it can do. Even though I'm directly contradicting my own idea written earlier, I do kinda appreciate that the consistent most devastating force power... remains Force Lightning.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:18
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this is way too many words being written on what isn’t that complicated of an issue. get some competent big franchise producers and filmmakers who have the support and trust of ownership and leave them the gently caress alone to make good stuff. this is the base process at the foundation of how every successful entertainment product is made. whoever is currently calling the shots, kathleen kennedy or whoever, cannot stop tripping over their own dicks trying to cheat the process. i love Star Wars but it is not a loving special unicorn that is impossible to wrangle or “go somewhere” with. it is a fantasy franchise that has had the misfortune of a few years of regular old fashioned mismanagement
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Dec 18, 2019 05:19
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of course, the question is, is it really mismanagement if they made as much money as they did
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Dec 18, 2019 05:20
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