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colachute posted:There isn’t any justification that would make me agree that 0 isn’t a reasonable demand. *shreds entirety of human history* Oh well. Edit: Ok maybe I should rephrase that. I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that in the tens or hundreds of millions of police interactions per year in this country alone, there will be zero.
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Dec 18, 2019 02:11
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I apologize for demanding cops don’t commit unjustifiable murder. It is unreasonable of me.
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Dec 18, 2019 02:15
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colachute posted:I apologize for demanding cops don’t commit unjustifiable murder. It is unreasonable of me. It's not unreasonable until you say "it literally can't even happen, ever. Not ever." Because, like, that's never going to achievable, not ever. Not even if you had hyper competent and benevolent robot-cops or something. I mean, to use an analogy, people die in the hospital for no better reason than that they get a resistant infection; that's also never going to be reduced to zero. I don't think it's police apologism to point out the actual impossibility of reducing it to literally zero and insisting on it isn't going to get us anywhere.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:31
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Edit: nevermind
Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 03:37
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Jack B Nimble posted:It's not unreasonable until you say "it literally can't even happen, ever. Not ever." Because, like, that's never going to achievable, not ever. Not even if you had hyper competent and benevolent robot-cops or something. I mean, to use an analogy, people die in the hospital for no better reason than that they get a resistant infection; that's also never going to be reduced to zero. If you have to explain why killing innocent people should be shrugged off as “poo poo happens” then you are part of the problem.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:03
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Godholio posted:Well, nobody made that argument. A Bad Poster actually framed it as an all or nothing proposition, the number is zero or it doesn't matter. So working towards zero is just as bad as trying to get a high score, until you actually get to zero. That is a really bad reading. Like if someone says "even one case of child abuse is one too many," do you really think they mean that one literal case of child abuse is the same as "trying to get a high score" of child abuse? What the gently caress? That's the weird, rhetorically somehow worse cousin of accelerationism or something.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:13
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We're not only not making any attempt at reducing it to zero, we're actively doing everything possible to increase the chances of police murdering but by all means continue hand wringing about this
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Dec 18, 2019 04:17
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Godholio posted:*shreds entirety of human history* Are you trying to say that like with any large group of armed people some amount of crime, including murder, is inevitable? I'm also not following. And I don't understand the problem with saying any such killing is unacceptable.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:27
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Proud Christian Mom posted:We're not only not making any attempt at reducing it to zero, we're actively doing everything possible to increase the chances of police murdering but by all means continue hand wringing about this Can you elaborate just exactly how "we" are actively doing anything (much less "everything possible") to increase the chances? Seems to me like more bodycams and better training, and the expansion of tasers to more and more departments are attempts to reduce police killings. And who are the "we?" Society? Or police?
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Dec 18, 2019 04:57
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that we should shrug off police murder as "poo poo happens"; and adopting a stance that no unjustified killings are acceptable makes total sense to me. The reading I had, and which I can discard if it was inaccurate, was something more like "If a single person dies unjustifiably out of millions and millions of police interactions, then we have to burn down the entire concept of police".
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Dec 18, 2019 05:05
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Bored As gently caress posted:Can you elaborate just exactly how "we" are actively doing anything (much less "everything possible") to increase the chances? Seems to me like more bodycams and better training, and the expansion of tasers to more and more departments are attempts to reduce police killings. It is important to remember that as bad as cops are now, they were generally worse throughout US history and held at lower levels of accountability. Compounded with the generally worse level of medical care available in the past, people were more likely to die at their hands even outside of events like "brutally shot/beaten" to death. So while things are not at acceptable levels, police violence used to be worse. That's worth acknowledging not as a point from which one should not say "good enough" or "what more do you want," but instead point out that calling out police violence, demanding increased accountability, and advocating for victims works and must continue to be a cause people fight for.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:07
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The thing that gets me (well one of them) about the current tangent is that we literally don't know how many unarmed people are killed by cops in the US because police departments all over the country refuse to report out every time they kill someone, despite being required to by federal law. Closest we can get is a couple newspapers and activist organizations who try to figure out details from articles posted in local papers. And that also ignores stuff like Laquan McDonald being "armed" with a knife as he was wandering down a street before a shitbag ran up to him and magdumped into him.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:37
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Dum Cumpster posted:Are you trying to say that like with any large group of armed people some amount of crime, including murder, is inevitable? I'm also not following. And I don't understand the problem with saying any such killing is unacceptable. I never said it's acceptable. I said it's unrealistic to expect zero. That doesn't mean they get a pass. It doesn't mean it's not horrible. Humans have been killing each other since humans have been a thing. It's never going to be zero until we're all gone. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it and punish murder. Jack B Nimble posted:I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that we should shrug off police murder as "poo poo happens"; and adopting a stance that no unjustified killings are acceptable makes total sense to me. The reading I had, and which I can discard if it was inaccurate, was something more like "If a single person dies unjustifiably out of millions and millions of police interactions, then we have to burn down the entire concept of police". Same. Not that it matters in this loving thread. mlmp08 posted:So while things are not at acceptable levels, police violence used to be worse. That's worth acknowledging not as a point from which one should not say "good enough" or "what more do you want," but instead point out that calling out police violence, demanding increased accountability, and advocating for victims works and must continue to be a cause people fight for. Prepare to be labeled a bootlicker.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:25
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mlmp08 posted:It is important to remember that as bad as cops are now, they were generally worse throughout US history and held at lower levels of accountability. Compounded with the generally worse level of medical care available in the past, people were more likely to die at their hands even outside of events like "brutally shot/beaten" to death. Hilariously we can't even quantify this since law enforcement doesn't actually have to track how many people die by their hands.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:29
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Godholio posted:Prepare to be labeled a bootlicker. This throwaway sentiment is the bullshit used to derail or slow progress or try to fracture allies in favor of maintaining the not-good-enough status quo. Like drat, man, most every civil rights activist ever will mention how poo poo things used to be, how fighting injustice is something to be proud of in those who came before us, and how we have a moral and practical obligation to continue the fight, because things might be better, but they are not yet acceptable. And if some edgelord replies to me and says we need violent revolution now, I’m the piece of poo poo if my reaction is then to embrace the status quo or go thin blue line mode.
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Dec 18, 2019 07:00
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Crakkerjakk posted:The thing that gets me (well one of them) about the current tangent is that we literally don't know how many unarmed people are killed by cops in the US because police departments all over the country refuse to report out every time they kill someone, despite being required to by federal law. Closest we can get is a couple newspapers and activist organizations who try to figure out details from articles posted in local papers. I love that it takes non profits and newspapers to actually get the numbers, as even the CDC and FBI admit their numbers are bullshit. 2019 is a slow year so far, only 885 or so police murdering people which is lower than last year. So good job guys, you did it!
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Dec 18, 2019 08:09
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The key to being able to murder a few people is to historically murder more than a few people.
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Dec 18, 2019 13:24
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mlmp08 posted:And if some edgelord replies to me and says we need violent revolution now, I’m the piece of poo poo if my reaction is then to embrace the status quo or go thin blue line mode. That is correct, why’d you type thin blue line twice lmao
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Dec 18, 2019 16:57
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Trash Ops posted:That is correct, why’d you type thin blue line twice lmao
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Dec 18, 2019 17:23
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colachute posted:The key to being able to murder a few people is to historically murder more than a few people. While also being a cop.
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Dec 18, 2019 18:52
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Dec 18, 2019 20:50
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sure it'd be great if cops would stop bodyslamming unarmed 12 year olds in school hallways but we can't actually guarantee that so why bother amirite
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Dec 18, 2019 21:24
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Bored As gently caress posted:Can you elaborate just exactly how "we" are actively doing anything (much less "everything possible") to increase the chances? Seems to me like more bodycams and better training, and the expansion of tasers to more and more departments are attempts to reduce police killings. cops fought tooth and nail to resist body cams
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Dec 18, 2019 23:26
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:cops fought tooth and nail to resist body cams I love my BWC.
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Dec 19, 2019 00:02
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Chichevache posted:I love my BWC. And as we all know, the plural of anecdote is data. McNally fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 00:05
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Also in many jurisdictions the body cam works fine when it backs up what the cop is saying happened, but mysteriously has a chain of unlikely malfunctions when some sort of misdeed is being alleged by someone who had a bad experience with a cop. Body cameras are a good idea, but the way they've been implemented in a lot of the country isn't great, aka is just another tool in the arsenal of the state crushing anyone who opposes their whims. Crakkerjakk fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 00:22
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Crakkerjakk posted:Also in many jurisdictions the body cam works fine when it backs up what the cop is saying happened, but mysteriously has a chain of unlikely malfunctions when some sort of misdeed is being alleged by someone who had a bad experience with a cop. Axon, the most popular bwc company, backs up all their stuff on the cloud. It isn't like the departments sit on a giant mound of hard drives they can erase whenever.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:16
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Nah, they just don't turn them on. Or turn them off so they can get a good grope in on a woman's corpse. "sexual contact with human remains without authority" might be my new favorite felony charge.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:26
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Liquid Communism posted:Nah, they just don't turn them on. And as we all know, the plural of anecdote is data.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:34
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Chichevache posted:And as we all know, the plural of anecdote is data. Jesus Christ shut the gently caress up you goddamned hypocrite.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:41
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Chichevache posted:If you've never been handcuffed than you'd be shocked how flexible someone in cuffs can be. Especially if they're not a fat computer touching goon. Chichevache posted:People gently caress up sometimes. Have you ever done a pat search? Ever done one on a person who is resisting that you really dont want to touch anyway? Why the gently caress aren't you banned yet, you're literally trying to defend cops killing people that are handcuffed.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:56
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welp I see this thread has progressed as expected later
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Dec 19, 2019 02:07
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Smiling Jack posted:welp I see this thread has progressed as expected Smiling Jack posted:all the poo poo wrong with policing in America today and you guys want to slapfight over infantry tactics which should not be police tactics lmao you're a whiny gently caress
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Dec 19, 2019 02:32
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Smiling Jack posted:welp I see this thread has progressed as expected Isn't there a turnstile you should be guarding?
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Dec 19, 2019 02:40
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:lmao you're a whiny gently caress do you feel better now
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Dec 19, 2019 02:43
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Nephzinho posted:Isn't there a turnstile you should be guarding? never did transit it's for losers and weirdos
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Dec 19, 2019 02:43
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I'm here to give this thread the quality it deserves because now it's just people telling past each other as usual
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Dec 19, 2019 02:44
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hmmm let me come back and check on this thread since I left welp it's a total poo poo show but I'm glad I gave random posters a chance to call me a whiner
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Dec 19, 2019 02:46
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:Why the gently caress aren't you banned yet, you're literally trying to defend cops killing people that are handcuffed. He's saying that some people are insanely flexible enough that they could reach behind them and grab a gun from their waist and shoot themselves. Though I think you already knew that.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:51
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Bored As gently caress posted:He's saying that some people are insanely flexible enough that they could reach behind them and grab a gun from their waist and shoot themselves. Though I think you already knew that. I actually thought he was saying people were flexible in cuffs to be a good gently caress. I guessed completely wrong
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Dec 19, 2019 03:05
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