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Onmi posted:I mean blatantly, no one was in charge. There was no overall "Okay, we have a three act story we want to tell" They tear up the EU to give film makers the freedom to not be bound by events and timelines that happened in it, and then they sorta realized they didn't have an idea. Even TLJ like... it 'subverted expectations' but that only works on the meta level. TLJ still feels like a movie aimed at the fans rather than telling a story... actually that's a really good summation for all these films. It has the modern film entry problem where... things happen to reference the thing that happened before. How many times did they go to the well on "Stares forlornly into the distance"? They do it at the end of this one and they did it in TLJ... Did they do it in TFA? I think they did but I don't remember. Well, as Daisy Ridley herself put it... "He did his stuttering thing and … disappeared. But he taught us a good lesson — bad guys and good guys are buying ammunition."
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Dec 18, 2019 05:21
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Horizon Burning posted:There's so many places they could've gone following TFA. Maybe the most interesting part of the first film was the idea that both Rey and Kylo were neophytes to the Force. So, even a pretty basic idea of having the second film be 'Luke trains Rey, Snoke trains Kylo' could be intriguing. Then, during the final confrontation, Rey flips dark because she's mad as hell (Ridley plays her with this powerful fury, after all) and Kylo flips light because, poo poo, he killed his dad and nothing helps - and you go from there. Even have them kill Snoke then and there, who gives a poo poo. But I honestly think Disney mandated that Rey had to be a bland 'inspiring' heroine. I think they released a poster that so perfectly sums this up.  This poster is really good. And then you notice the half-visible Palpatine beneath the logo and it's like... fuckin' why?
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Dec 18, 2019 05:21
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Onmi posted:Everything in TLJ is essentially "Well fans think X is going to happen, so let's do Y. Fans have an expectation of the Noble Smuggler so let's have an Ignoble Smuggler" And then the question that pops in my head is... why have a smuggler at all? https://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-thinks-catering-foremost-to-fanservice-is-1840490240 posted:“I think approaching any creative process with [making fandoms happy] would be a mistake that would lead to probably the exact opposite result,” Johnson told Radio.com. “Even my experience as a fan, you know if I’m coming into something, even if it’s something that I think I want, if I see exactly what I think I want on the screen, it’s like ‘oh, okay,’ it might make me smile and make me feel neutral about the thing and I won’t really think about it afterwards, but that’s not really going to satisfy me.”
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Dec 18, 2019 05:22
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he's not wrong
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Dec 18, 2019 05:23
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Pollyanna posted:No, don’t, just move on. 900 years have passed since blah blah whatever, dump as much baggage as possible without totally losing everything Star Wars has. Right, but I'm saying that despite that being the best idea, corporate may want to "salvage" the existing merch line. Remember: Star Wars currently exists primarily to sell toys and merchandise. Every other decision will be filtered, primarily, through that lens. Davros1 posted:The biggest problem is everyone who isn't Lucas thinks Force = Superpowers, which isn't the case. Even he realized that relying on "The Force" for storytelling was too much of a crutch and limited its ability and what it can do. I mean, this is also true, but then with ol' Sheev they introduce force lightning. It might've been easy to say that it was just his thing, but one of RotJ's biggest sins was finally, right at the end, uncorking the Superpowers Bottle for the Force. They just couldn't make it through all three movies without escalating a bit, and it would take a rather different villain, if you're doing a further sequel in the same time frame, to re-cork that bottle. I think that would've been good - there was a certain elegance to the Force when it was more novel-Gandalf-style subtle magic and intensity of focus allowing the laser sword fights to be cool - but the urge, even the drive, to escalate was always there and keeping it corked in a way that still satisfied would've been difficult the longer things went on. Which is a problem far bigger than Star Wars, but.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:23
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People are hard on JJ and rian perhaps deservedly but ultimately they're in the unenviable position of being judged on their first drafts, because that's what was produced because the entire point here was really to get movies out as quickly as humanly possible. I wouldn't want to be judged on my first drafts, that's for sure
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Dec 18, 2019 05:24
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Zas posted:of course, the question is, is it really mismanagement if they made as much money as they did It is... because you shouldn't think short term, you need to think long term. To use a real nerdy fuckin' example. WWE is making major bank because of TV deals and the Saudi deal and poo poo... but, they're putting on such terrible television that their ratings are dropping far faster than anything else... and when those deals come to be renewed, they wont renew for as much, because you made poo poo. Did they make a lotta money? Yeah. Did they make as much as they could've? Nope.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:25
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I always think about one of the first lines from RLM's Plinkett series, and how much better it applies to the new films:quote:The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars [sequels] is that they’ll be around… forever. They will never go away. They can never be undone. Like, Ford is out. Fisher is dead. Hamill seems like he hated the experience. Who knows what Lucas thinks. There can never again be the Star Wars sequel films that people would hope to see.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:25
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Davros1 posted:The biggest problem is everyone who isn't Lucas thinks Force = Superpowers, which isn't the case. Even he realized that relying on "The Force" for storytelling was too much of a crutch and limited its ability and what it can do. Yeah being able to resurrect some one jumps the shark. Before force users were basically enhanced humans. Greater speed through seeing the future a few seconds and greater strength with using there limited telekinesis with their blows. With great focus they could move heavy objects but could never do that in a fight. Now the force is bordering on magic. It can do anything.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:28
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Yeah, the really tragic thing about TFA is in hindsight it was the one last window to reunite those actors and characters and it was squandered forever. Maybe that's overly romantic because latter day carrie fisher and harrison ford couldn't/wouldn't act (though maybe they could have risen to better material), but I still find it sad
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Dec 18, 2019 05:28
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Zas posted:they could have written all three movies in advance instead of doing it on the fly. not final drafts or whatever, you know what i mean Disney simply doesn't care, that's the long and short of it. Star Wars is a money faucet they bought and one which they intend to capitalize on until it runs dry. They're not trying to do high art, they're here to sell merchandise.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:29
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Mandrel posted:this is way too many words being written on what isn’t that complicated of an issue. get some competent big franchise producers and filmmakers who have the support and trust of ownership and leave them the gently caress alone to make good stuff. Yeah but discussing mismanagement when it involves literally hundred-million-dollar toy commercials is oddly compelling and leads me to  . Even when it's overposting and I'm working on other stuff simultaneously  .
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Dec 18, 2019 05:29
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cuntman.net posted:somewhere out there is someone who has been watching all the movies and has somehow avoided all the spoilers and im sad i will never see their reaction to that opening crawl My wife hasn't even seen the trailers and doesn't know palpatine is back it's gonna be insane watching with her
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Dec 18, 2019 05:31
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ErrEff posted:Disney simply doesn't care, that's the long and short of it. Then there’s no point discussing this - it’s for children.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:35
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Horizon Burning posted:There's so many places they could've gone following TFA. Maybe the most interesting part of the first film was the idea that both Rey and Kylo were neophytes to the Force. So, even a pretty basic idea of having the second film be 'Luke trains Rey, Snoke trains Kylo' could be intriguing. Yeah, this is what I thought would happen too. The end of TFA clearly sets up a “parallel training” concept for the next movie and it could have been really interesting to see. TFA has many problems but the idea that TLJ sucked because Johnson was saddled with an unworkable setup doesn’t hold water.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:44
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Onmi posted:It is... because you shouldn't think short term, you need to think long term. To use a real nerdy fuckin' example. WWE is making major bank because of TV deals and the Saudi deal and poo poo... but, they're putting on such terrible television that their ratings are dropping far faster than anything else... and when those deals come to be renewed, they wont renew for as much, because you made poo poo. This also gets to current corporate "philosophy", though, in which the current and upcoming quarters are all that matter. Can we get one Ster Wer film out a year to update toy lines with? Yes? Do it. It does not matter what the quality of the content is, it does not matter what the reaction of the consumer is, do it. They will enjoy product and get excited for more product. Forever. If they don't, we move on to something else. There are companies in other business sectors and especially countries that learned, often the hard way, how destructive this behavior can be (though some of 'em are regressing because they're getting dazzled by how much the American investor class is seemingly making). We'll see how hard Disney learns this lesson, or if they even need to or care enough to do so - it's not like Star Wars sinking as a brand would hurt the overall Disney bottom line that badly with how big they are now. Disney doesn't ride or die on one product line. Pollyanna posted:Then there’s no point discussing this - it’s for children. I mean, to some extent, there indeed might not be a point. Once Lucas sold Star Wars, the writing was on the wall for what it would be transformed into, and it was already pretty intensely built around toy marketing - it was just that the toy marketing had grown out of a desire for secondary products related to something people had found compelling, rather than the merchandise line becoming the primary focus and the media products existing to justify the merchandise. Now that said rubicon has been crossed, the question might well be "how much artistic value can the franchise still hold, if its primary purpose is to exist as marketing for toy lines"? Franchises like Gundam have struggled with this question for decades.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:45
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I would have to imagine they wanted one director to helm the franchise but it's also a case of Disney wanting their lightsaber shaped birthday cake and eating it too. They were so insistent on Series-Story-Series-Story alternating years that there almost certainly wasn't enough time for one person to craft a trilogy over 6 years (pre-production on each movie was starting mid-filming of the previous) and it's equally likely they couldn't find somebody competent to take that job even offering more money than God cause holy poo poo that timeline working under a corporation. Different directors was probably a necessary evil in their mind despite the fact they could have just spread this poo poo out a little more and bypassed all of that including the Star Wars fatigue.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:46
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They were and are extremely fearful of anyone getting too much leverage in negotiations. This alone was surely enough to kill any idea of having one creative at the helm
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Dec 18, 2019 05:49
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Holy poo poo, it's all loving true.   It's amazing to look at the Marvel movies and then back to this and just wonder what in the absolute gently caress Disney was trying to accomplish.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:55
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Jiro posted:Holy poo poo, it's all loving true. The thing is is that the marvel movies are the exception to how Disney runs things, not the rule. Their live action attempts outside of marvel are, aside from a couple success stories, infamous trainwrecks of production and plotting. Pretty much all of their recent remakes are overproduced garbage that gets forgotten immediately, and before that they kept striking out with adaptations like John Carter. Outside of animated films, Disney is just straight up bad at making movies, always have been, and they're kept afloat by nostalgia, the parks, and Marvel. It's just that Star Wars is the first time since Pirates that Disney's general incompetence has been under such scrutiny, and star wars fans are far more vocal and numerous.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:01
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Zas posted:of course, the question is, is it really mismanagement if they made as much money as they did i would say no if they didn’t seem so dissatisfied with the reaction and amount of money they are making
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Dec 18, 2019 06:07
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SpaceDrake posted:Yeah but discussing mismanagement when it involves literally hundred-million-dollar toy commercials is oddly compelling and leads me to oh yeah totally i’m doing the same thing. we’re all just in here killing time talking about poo poo that don’t matter plus at the end of the day who doesn’t like going out in the yard and watching when their neighbor’s house is on fire
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Dec 18, 2019 06:09
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so first theres a map everyones trying to find and now theres a dagger and wayfinder and stuff. i havent seen his other stuff but is jj only capable of writing one kind of plot
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Dec 18, 2019 06:09
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:The thing is is that the marvel movies are the exception to how Disney runs things, not the rule. Their live action attempts outside of marvel are, aside from a couple success stories, infamous trainwrecks of production and plotting. Pretty much all of their recent remakes are overproduced garbage that gets forgotten immediately, and before that they kept striking out with adaptations like John Carter. Outside of animated films, Disney is just straight up bad at making movies, always have been, and they're kept afloat by nostalgia, the parks, and Marvel. It's just that Star Wars is the first time since Pirates that Disney's general incompetence has been under such scrutiny, and star wars fans are far more vocal and numerous. this is a good observation that i hadn’t considered. there’s a lot of parallels with POTC and this ST looking back
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Dec 18, 2019 06:12
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I can't think of a director out there who is competent enough to helm a fresh trilogy from start to finish and also wouldn't mind being shackled to this franchise for a decade, because a decade is what it would've taken to do it right. Like no matter how much money they're throwing at you that's still a massive undertaking and also leaves you holding the bag if/when something goes wrong or isn't well received. Also Disney was never going to let someone just take the reins on their flagship IP. It really is a massive squandering of a lot of resources and talent. The postmortems once NDAs expire are just going to be phenomenal.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:15
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Horizon Burning posted:Well, as Daisy Ridley herself put it...
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Dec 18, 2019 06:18
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Mat Cauthon posted:I can't think of a director out there who is competent enough to helm a fresh trilogy from start to finish and also wouldn't mind being shackled to this franchise for a decade, because a decade is what it would've taken to do it right. Like no matter how much money they're throwing at you that's still a massive undertaking and also leaves you holding the bag if/when something goes wrong or isn't well received. Also Disney was never going to let someone just take the reins on their flagship IP. they should have given it to hideaki anno
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Dec 18, 2019 06:19
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FlamingLiberal posted:That whole plot line also had nothing to do with anything really. At no point has this series established that the Republic/Resistance is flawed other than that they didn’t listen to Leia’s warnings about the First Order. I mean it’s fine to show war profiteers, but in the same movie it’s also established that this ‘war’ is already over and the First Order won. I still don't understand the Resistance/Republic split.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:23
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Onmi posted:I still don't understand the Resistance/Republic split. The resistance are contras.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:25
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Stairmaster posted:they should have given it to hideaki anno SW is at its best when it’s stealing from Japan, so just go all in and get Anno. You thought people had trouble with the themes in TLJ. Anno SW would be insane and probably pretty offensive to its audience. I’d be so down. Shin Star Wars.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:43
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well why not posted:SW is at its best when it’s stealing from Japan, so just go all in and get Anno. You thought people had trouble with the themes in TLJ. Anno SW would be insane and probably pretty offensive to its audience. I’d be so down. Get Tomino instead, His names are perfect for Star Wars.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:45
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Pollyanna posted:What I’m hearing is that trying to make an interesting movie is wasted on Star Wars. Maybe the rlm guys can have a crack at it.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:48
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lol thinking about anno taking a year off in the middle of a star wars trilogy cause hes depressed
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Dec 18, 2019 06:51
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:The thing is is that the marvel movies are the exception to how Disney runs things, not the rule. Their live action attempts outside of marvel are, aside from a couple success stories, infamous trainwrecks of production and plotting. Pretty much all of their recent remakes are overproduced garbage that gets forgotten immediately, and before that they kept striking out with adaptations like John Carter. Outside of animated films, Disney is just straight up bad at making movies, always have been, and they're kept afloat by nostalgia, the parks, and Marvel. It's just that Star Wars is the first time since Pirates that Disney's general incompetence has been under such scrutiny, and star wars fans are far more vocal and numerous. forgot Tron. They hosed up Tron
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Dec 18, 2019 06:53
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Onmi posted:I still don't understand the Resistance/Republic split. We must always have an empire and a scrappy rebellion, that is The Brand. Now and forever, cast eternal, shiny and chrome. Even if the Empire was literally beaten and the story says there should be a New Republic and there were literally decades of highly variable quality fiction about it which still turned out to be interesting, it must always be Empire vs. Rebellion. So they came up with a Resistance for branding and tried to idly explain it away afterward. Zas posted:lol thinking about anno taking a year off in the middle of a star wars trilogy cause hes depressed I'd be depressed as gently caress having to deal with the Disney corporate bureaucracy after more than one film straight. I've no idea how some of the actors do it and it's another factor that makes the directoral change every movie unsurprising.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:53
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Even just shifting Kylo's scar is bothersome. In TFA, it's this horrible, disfiguring thing that's cut across his whole face. The sort of thing where he might start wearing the mask out of shame or vanity. His idol, Vader, had a physical dependence on his mask and Kylo could increasingly find himself with a psychological dependence - poetry, rhymes, etc. Then TLJ rolls around, and Johnson shifts it for whatever reason to the extent that you can barely see it. The idea that Kylo got marred to such an extent in his first lightsaber fight is really interesting, in my opinion, but it's basically retcon'd for no real reason.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:55
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Rey being a Palpatine is so loving dumb, you'd think Luke would maybe notice that at some point?
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Dec 18, 2019 06:58
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Really should’ve just bitten the bullet and made Rey Luke's kid from the beginning imo
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Dec 18, 2019 07:00
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Rey Palpatine fits right into TFA. "Who's the girl?" "What girl?" Leia seeming to know who she is. Luke leaving a map. It goes on. I think the TFA novel even has a more explicit bit of recognition from Kylo to her during the duel they have. She was absolutely supposed to be someone known.
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Dec 18, 2019 07:01
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Duckula posted:Rey being a Palpatine is so loving dumb, you'd think Luke would maybe notice that at some point? Luke and Leia both recognized it the moment they met her and didn't say anything. EDIT: To clarify that's said in the RoS
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Dec 18, 2019 07:03
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