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Wolfsheim posted:If this thread is indicative of TVIV though the westworld S2 thread must've been loving incredible It followed a pretty similar arc to this thread. Early season: almost everyone (rightfully) thinks it's great; the haters are shunned Mid season: growing concern that this mystery box might not be going anywhere, but still very deec Finale: almost everyone thinks it dropped the ball; the cheerleaders are growing quite hostile Weeks later: Everyone's buds again and we can laugh at how bad the ending was. Maybe an article comes out that explains why the final few episodes were re-cut for the worse
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Dec 18, 2019 03:39
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Wolfsheim posted:It kinda owns that it went from "you dont like the show because you're an insane hater" to "why did you actually research the show what are you a stupid nerd or something" Honestly this has been the number 1 question on my mind. I have no idea who this show is for except for some of the goons on here and the people that do Easter eggs and recap/explained videos on youtube. I really just don’t know who the audience for this show is. I mean obviously people here like the show (and that’s completely fine!) but good lord lol. People want to keep moving the goal posts, thats fine by me KoRMaK posted:You have a commute AND game?? Yeah. Is something wrong with that lol sorry if you have worse time management skills geez
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Dec 18, 2019 03:42
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Wolfsheim posted:If this thread is indicative of TVIV though the westworld S2 thread must've been loving incredible I can print to PDF it for you Yea it was detected as bad by the whole thread like half way through. Which is different than this show which was detected as great the whole way through. There were no defenders for ww2 after ep 3 or 4 - it was just obvious how cynical the rush to make a story was. You should watch it just to see, watch s1 then 2 and see how you feel lol it's like the show was gutted of all it's dimension for a caricature. At first we thought "oh the robot is acting like a caricature of a villian because that's just what her loop experiences have been" but then we realized that nah that was sincerely bad writing and was meant earnestly KoRMaK fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 03:43
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KoRMaK posted:Yea it was detected as bad by the whole thread like half way through. Which is different than this show which was detected as great the whole way through. There were no defenders for ww2 after ep 3 or 4 - it was just obvious how cynical the rush to make a story was. People liked episode 3 because it had Jimmi Simpson and was mostly a cool self contained robot story. Akecheta's episode and the Shogun World trip were similar cool islands in a dumb ocean.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:54
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Nail Rat posted:He did say he rates the show a 7 I believe. Doesn't sound like hate really. That was GoGoGadgetChris not GOOBusters. GGGChris you aight, I mostly agree with you. Id probably give it a solid 8.5 since I did like most of the show up until the end of 7 and really enjoyed the structure and isolated story of 8, but didnt really like its connection to the overall story. Finale was fine from a mechanical plot side, but it wasnt thematically satisfying at all for me other than the final scene with Angela and Will. Also GGGChris I was 100% correct about LG coming back. Turns out he didnt even try to save the day he just...showed up again to witness the end I guess? Kinda bummed how under utilized he was in the finale other than to help arrest Veidt. His ep was my favorite next to Episode 6 so Im bummed it kind of went nowhere after that. The REAL Goobusters posted:That comparison, to me, is bad because it automatically places this weird like fantasy about older media. drat how did people react back then and now?! Why can’t people just enjoy things!!! Star Wars the empire strikes back is not a film that is based on Earth that used real life events (like the Tulsa massacre) for its own story about racism or cops or generational trauma or something (can of worms with generational trauma considering its loving Star Wars but whatever). Cool. I agree. The show certainly has earned more crticial scrutiny based on its content and themes and deserves to be examined on a deeper level than the logical believability of its more fantastical plot elements. I was really happy with episodes 1-7 but I think they kind of dropped the ball with what they had thematically set up for most of the show. I dont think they failed and its not that 8 and 9 didnt have a purpose and werent well made, but it wasnt as interesting or as culturally relevant and didnt have nearly as much time to develop so it didnt have a strong impact for me. I dont agree that Abar was a bad character and Regina King was wasted, but I think tying her up with Manhattan certainly did a disservice to the depth they had built up for her and a lot of the nuance of her behavior sort of fell to the wayside and she kind of just became a pawn for Dr. Ms story. Im planning on rewatching the show but Im afraid its going to be frustrating knowing how little they actually did with her post episode 7. What to you was bad about her character and what is cheap about her being HJs granddaughter? Shes the only one who is a descendant of any previous Watchmen character. Im not sure who else youre talking about unless youre criticizing that a lot of the new characters are analogous descendants to previous characters? The REAL Goobusters posted:I typed that while I was stuck in traffic. I also believe that other post was made in very bad faith too. I would expect people to look at that and just ignore it completely. I replied to it in a quick 1 sentence post because why not. Now Im sure you dont exactly appreciate being analyzed by a stranger or care what I have to say here because who the hell am I but gently caress it, maybe you'll listen. "They did it too/first" is a super childish defence. If you want to take the high ground as the person who isnt being toxic or antagonistic it might help if you dont feel the need to impulsively get a word in(while driving?!) just for the hell of it because someone was arguing in a way you think is "bad faith". If you think people should just ignore it then why didnt you? What compells you to engage with people like that and then act like youre the civil one not trying to pick fights? Like go ahead and pick fights, whatever, but dont then go and accuse everyone else of being the hostile and toxic ones when you have definitively and with plenty of evidence been exactly like this for most of this shows run. Like obviously you have actual fleshed out thoughts and opinions on this show but Ive gone through your history in this thread and you actually barely ever make replies like you just did. Its 90% quote cheerleading and poo poo posting. Theres a handful of thought out posts with content that can actually be engaged with that are roughly a paragraph or longer but the majority of it is one or two sentence swipes and if you cant see how that breeds toxic discussion and is antagonistic than I dont really know what to say.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:59
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Mameluke posted:People liked episode 3 because it had Jimmi Simpson and was mostly a cool self contained robot story. Akecheta's episode and the Shogun World trip were similar cool islands in a dumb ocean. Oh ya you're right those were good. It had its moments, but yes you described it perfectly as an ocean of dumb
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Dec 18, 2019 04:02
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Oh and my post wasn't about how people could just enjoy things back then, it's more so a take on how the internet and all the accessibility to info and sharing of opinions it offers just means that the same movie transposed to now would have been equally picked apart... even tho it was a good movie. A new hope was good, but people would sti post takes on it, and some of those takes may have a core criticism that is good but are just presented in a way that is just loving annoying to read over and over The REAL Goobusters posted:Honestly this has been the number 1 question on my mind. I have no idea who this show is for except for some of the goons on here I don't understand how you can't fathom it's audience, nor the need to categorize the audience into "who is this show for". And your search for that wouldn't be so grating if it wasn't the frequency of posts you keep making. It's like you kinda want the thread to convince you otherwise or something, and I keep coming back to the thread to see if there is something interesting and new being presented but it's mostly just the same negative critic over and over which is just kinda annoying and doesn't let the new interesting stuff get a chance to breath KoRMaK fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 04:10
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Bushido Brown posted:...they didn't need to clarify after the fact. So allowing for that, the fact that her trepidation is with the newfound powers is my entire point: The moral and philosophical question is whether or not you should acquire godlike powers, not whether or not they work. Lindelof thinks the Big Question is if the button works, not whether you press it. It's Babby's First Thought experiment and he whiffs it.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:22
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Slamhound posted:The ending is almost universally being called a cliff hanger which suggest that it's ambiguous and Lindelof has clarified, after the fact, that Angela has powers. I'm not sure I read enough (bad) takes to say if it's common, but the one review I read, from the NYT, explicitly did not call it a cliffhanger. We have different takes on this. One difference is that mine doesn't wrestle with a strawman, assuming that the obvious foreshadowing, and explicit references were there for no reason at all. Under your reading, why did Jon (1) make waffles (2) say "watch the eggs" and (3) tell Will to tell Angela that you can't make an omelette ... Why did the show juxtapose those things through flashback immediately before Angela ate the egg to say "hey, in case you're a moron, remember the eggs? hey, remember the eggs yet? This is what he said about eggs" It's only ambiguous if you're intentionally dense.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:32
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AccountSupervisor posted:Also GGGChris I was 100% correct about LG coming back. Turns out he didnt even try to save the day he just...showed up again to witness the end I guess? Kinda bummed how under utilized he was in the finale other than to help arrest Veidt. His ep was my favorite next to Episode 6 so Im bummed it kind of went nowhere after that. Stuff like this is what really bummed me out too. All the cool characters (Laurie, LG, HJ) got their own episodes that drew their path to the endgame and then in the finale were so completely useless that they may as well all have been tied to chairs. The last episode gets worse the more I think about it. Ugh, I just want to pretend that the show ended at Angela caving in Cal's head, for me it was almost straight downhill after that.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:41
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LG probably thought he could do something, but when he got there he probably realized that it was way out of his league and just passively watched. It sounded like he was at least going to try to rescue Laurie.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:44
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I liked the show, and the ending. I don't really care if angela actually has powers or not (or if it was confirmed by the writer, because unless it actually happens on the show it matters about as much as dumbledore being gay). It was a fun series and I had a good time watching it, some people didn't like it and that's fine too. I just don't get why some people are so bent out of shape about one group or the other.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:48
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Chadzok posted:Stuff like this is what really bummed me out too. All the cool characters (Laurie, LG, HJ) got their own episodes that drew their path to the endgame and then in the finale were so completely useless that they may as well all have been tied to chairs. The last episode gets worse the more I think about it. Ugh, I just want to pretend that the show ended at Angela caving in Cal's head, for me it was almost straight downhill after that. Laurie being tied to a chair and not doing anything for the last 3 episodes was the best. Not even having a conversation with John. Oh and remember Petey? The show sure didn't.
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Dec 18, 2019 05:34
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Lindelof was too busy writing up two republic serial villain monologues to care about Petey's reveal as LubeMan Heck he even agrees with my personal view of not enough Trieu
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Dec 18, 2019 05:40
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Bushido Brown posted:I'm not sure I read enough (bad) takes to say if it's common, but the one review I read, from the NYT, explicitly did not call it a cliffhanger. All these references are only foreshadowing if the anticipated outcome explicitly comes to pass, otherwise it's a deliberate subversion of foreshadowing norms. Which is fine, but you have to accept that and you have to accept that the various ambiguities throughout the series. Dr. Manhattan did not say that the egg would definitely give someone powers. He is not all-knowing, he only knows what he has/will experience in his lifetime (absent tachyon fields and melted-watch cages). Angela eats the egg after he's dead so the outcome is not something he could know. Manhattan has no problems informing people of the future, even to the point of apparently affecting future outcome. His telling Reeves who Crawford is/was is the driving event of the entire series, so why wouldn't he tell Angela she gets his powers? Because he doesn't know. If he's discombobulated enough to make waffles and drop hints instead of simply saying what will happen, doesn't that suggest he could be confused enough to not transfer his powers to the egg? The whole point of those later scenes is that Manhattan is confused and uncertain. But okay, so she 100% has the powers. Everyone in the show accepts that Manhattan can transfer his powers. Wonderful. Why film it in a way that obfuscates that? Why, after an entire episode that specifically says that anyone who seeks the powers of a god shouldn't have them, is her willfully acquiring that power glossed over for a cut and emotional beat that focuses on whether it actually works? Lindelof posted:But the second phase of her origin story is these nine episodes, all leading up to that moment of what happens when her foot hits the surface of that pool.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:05
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Yeah, we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, and I'm generally never going to subscribe to a critique that presumes that an error and then says "aha, what a moron, he made the error I assumed!" But also, why didn't Will just tell Angela everything outright? He could have. He said some truths, but also obfuscated what happened. Gosh! Not a parallel though. And again, Manhattan doesn't say "oh idk I think I could transfer my powers maybe not sure." He said, hypothetically, he could. And then he did. Bushido Brown fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 06:18
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Kill All Cops posted:Lindelof was too busy writing up two republic serial villain monologues to care about Petey's reveal as LubeMan lol he seriously thinks we needed more of Red Scare, yes mate that def was the problem your show had
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Dec 18, 2019 06:26
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Bushido Brown posted:Yeah, we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, and I'm generally never going to subscribe to a critique that presumes that an error and then says "aha, what a moron, he made the error I assumed!" quote:Angela: So that's a thing you can do? Give someone your powers? Theoretically he could, and we don't know if he actually could or even did because we didn't see it and the point at which he supposedly did create the egg, he was hosed up and confused. But again, you're consistently ignoring the larger point that the major moral thrust of the story, especially in the last few episodes, is that someone seeking to acquire the power of god does not deserve it. And then Angela just goes ahead and grabs it. No biggie. Do you really not see the two distinct questions I'm talking about? One is a moral question, the other is a technical question, and the way the finale is filmed detracts from both.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:45
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The show did everything it possibly could to both show you and tell you what happened, short of displaying Angela tap dancing on the water. Up to and including the credits music. You can dislike what happened but that doesn't change the ending.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:59
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Chadzok posted:lol he seriously thinks we needed more of Red Scare, yes mate that def was the problem your show had lurker2006 fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 07:17
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My hot take is that she has the powers if there's no season 2, but she doesn't have them if there is.
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Dec 18, 2019 07:36
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Wolfsheim posted:If this thread is indicative of TVIV though the westworld S2 thread must've been loving incredible The best part was the bullet debate.
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Dec 18, 2019 08:48
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Super late to the thread, show was damned good and the finale absolutely kept theme of racism going... A few points 1. 7th Calvary/ Cyclops plot holes make perfect sense when you take into account that white supremacists are incompetent, even (especially) the successful ones. 2. Lady Trieu playing them like a fiddle was hilarious as they were utterly dependent on a minority to achieve their goals 3. Veidt not dumping his semen in the toilet/garbage after masturbating made sense for the biggest egomaniac the world will ever know. 4. Angela’s helplessness in the last episode mirrored her grandfather’s helplessness in the first episode. Taking that into account it was inevitable that she would eat the egg. 5. Will killing Jud was personal.
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Dec 18, 2019 10:10
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Kill All Cops posted:Lindelof was too busy writing up two republic serial villain monologues to care about Petey's reveal as LubeMan
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Dec 18, 2019 10:24
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angela ate the wrong egg
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Dec 18, 2019 10:48
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I for one look forward to that ignorant hayseed and Laurie fight vigilante crime across America in a watchmen spinoff. One thing this show did a lot was signposting which I feel like it did not need to do. The thing is, I could see an HBO exec or someone from Warner Bros give notes to that effect, assuming audiences would get lost or whatever without them. I wish that we had more time with these characters but it ended right when it needed to. More episodes would have dragged out the ending.
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Dec 18, 2019 13:22
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dazoner posted:Super late to the thread, show was damned good and the finale absolutely kept theme of racism going... 3. It's interesting that you interpret it as Ozymandias finding something to do with sperm he otherwise would've just thrown out. At least in his own head, it's definitely the other way around - he'd insist he only masturbates to the end of sperm storage. Masturbating for the pleasure of masturbating is a base, mortal dependence just like sex for the pleasure of sex. 5. I don't understand what it means for Will killing Jud to be personal when the two had never met before and all Will knew about Jud was the Klan robe and Cyclops involvement, which would drive Will to kill just about anyone. I don't see how it's more personal than anything else Will did throughout the season. Can you elaborate on that?
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Dec 18, 2019 13:40
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just another posted:My hot take is that she has the powers if there's no season 2, but she doesn't have them if there is. If there is a season 2 I'd love for it to just feature a different cast and let this story lay where it is.
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Dec 18, 2019 13:46
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If Manhattan wanted angela to get his powers why didnt he just tell her about the egg directly
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Dec 18, 2019 14:18
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Slamhound posted:This is by no means definitive: Both Trieu and Keene sought to destroy DM and steal his powers. Not only hubris but a great moral crime. ‘I will kill God and supplant him.’ Angela fought to keep DM alive and did not ask for his powers. He freely offered them to her, his wife, because he chose to. She loved him as a man, not a God. He could do anything and she asked him for nothing. “I wouldn’t give my powers to someone without their permission.” The reverse is also true- Jon has to give HIS permission. Maybe you guys should stick to less complicated superhero shows like Paw Patrol.
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Dec 18, 2019 14:33
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:The ratings were not bad, they were on par with another HBO drama prestige show, Big Little Lies (which has an all-star cast). That’s really good! And the finale had higher ratings than the premiere, which is also really good- people stuck with the show and even recruited new viewers through word-of-mouth. im still thinking about this post lmao could this guy be anymore up his own rear end
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Dec 18, 2019 14:49
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i cannot fathom how someone can come away from this season thinking this show took a hard look at racism. e: don't get me wrong - it certainly looked at racism in america but it didn't explore it in near enough depth and it hand-waves away racism in the police as being some bad apple infiltrators. Thom and the Heads fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 14:55
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Doomsday Clock #12 is out today! I read it! If you didn’t like the show or it’s ending, this will give you the closure you want. Just kidding, you’re going to poo poo yourselves with rage when you see what the last page is.
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Dec 18, 2019 15:41
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Thom and the Heads posted:i cannot fathom how someone can come away from this season thinking this show took a hard look at racism. The show's main character is black and was duped into doing the bidding of her secretly KKK police chief, defends him against her own family, and ultimately loses the one person she loves. Also, Episode 6 is literally about being a disillusioned black cop and how that wrecks poo poo. I get that this isn't like... The Wire or whatever, but it is miles ahead of literally any leisure media I have seen since. There aren't solutions, but holy poo poo, seriously what is your bar for "hard look at racism"
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Dec 18, 2019 16:02
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anothergod posted:The show's main character is black and was duped into doing the bidding of her secretly KKK police chief, defends him against her own family, and ultimately loses the one person she loves. Also, Episode 6 is literally about being a disillusioned black cop and how that wrecks poo poo. I get that this isn't like... The Wire or whatever, but it is miles ahead of literally any leisure media I have seen since. There aren't solutions, but holy poo poo, seriously what is your bar for "hard look at racism" Dr Manhattan has to look at the camera and say “Even my power cannot cure the evil of racism. gently caress the Police.”
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Dec 18, 2019 16:11
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Will ate the Manhattan egg way back in episode two or three or whatever. He reached into a pot of boiling water, plucked out the egg, and ate it. Soon after that, he gave up his wheelchair, no longer needed Nostalgia to remember the past, and at the end, we find him sitting in the theater, where *he* teleported the kids and protected them. Will is the new Dr. Manhattan. Book it, done. And as for Lady T, yes, her *stated* goal was to do good with Manhattan's powers. However, her actual actions throughout the show belie that; she installs the Manhattan Booths to spy on people. She tortures animals. She cloned her own mother, and is then force-feeding the clone her mother's memories, robbing that new individual of their own identity. She creates life, and uses it to extort things out of people. She masterminds a huge plot to kill Dr. Manhattan to take his power by force. She imprisons her own father out of spite. If she can do all that with just technology, what would she do with Manhattan-level powers?
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Dec 18, 2019 16:18
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Guys, guys, come on. Don't doubt the writing chops of Lindelof. Passing genetics changing superpowers through liquids is certainly not something he's recycling from multiple other, equally lovely, project he's written.
Tehran 1979 fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 16:21
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TheCenturion posted:Will no longer needed Nostalgia to remember the past, Will never needed the Nosalgia, it was always meant for Angela.
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Dec 18, 2019 16:31
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Civilized Fishbot posted:3. It's interesting that you interpret it as Ozymandias finding something to do with sperm he otherwise would've just thrown out. At least in his own head, it's definitely the other way around - he'd insist he only masturbates to the end of sperm storage. Masturbating for the pleasure of masturbating is a base, mortal dependence just like sex for the pleasure of sex. Theory-crafting about why Veidt masturbates is the more interesting topic than theory-crafting about what he’s was planning on doing with the sperm (nothing 😂... it was always nothing.) Civilized Fishbot posted:5. I don't understand what it means for Will killing Jud to be personal when the two had never met before and all Will knew about Jud was the Klan robe and Cyclops involvement, which would drive Will to kill just about anyone. I don't see how it's more personal than anything else Will did throughout the season. Can you elaborate on that? Will is a very old man who lost his legacy(family) and is all alone, he finds that his granddaughter is targeted by his hated enemy (which is curious that they never realized anything about Hooded Justice down to the very basic point that a black guy was targeting them but that goes into my first point, it’s even funnier when you realize they know more about his sex life than his vigilante goals.) The mix of Angela being his granddaughter and being focused on by cyclops made his want to kill Jud. I use the fact that he allowed/used Lady Trieu to finish the rest of them off for him to bring my point home. dazoner fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 16:34
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Nice try, gorgeous seductress, but your wily attempts to compromise me have failed! Do you seriously think I'd engage the opposite sex with a round in the chamber? I jerked off 35 minutes ago 
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Dec 18, 2019 17:09
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