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Fuzz posted:The problem with the new movies, though, is that in their attempt to make Rey a strong and powerful female protagonist, they also made her utterly pure of heart and infallible. In TFA she is a crack pilot despite having never flown before, doesn't actually need anyone's help to escape the First Order (which would have been fine and great on its own, but combined with everything else just made her even more ridiculous), and totally kicks the rear end of a dude who has been living and breathing using a lightsaber since he was a child. In TLJ this theme continues with her showing Luke how he's being a silly lump, trying to endear/turn Kylo around to the point where he seizes power to try to rule with her, and dives down into a dark side cave to... look at a mirror or something, it wasn't much of a fail. Top it all off with her saving the day at the end. I guess she kinda fails when she cuts a rock in half? That's the closest she comes to not being perfect. One of the through lines about the force is that those that are force sensitive are incredibly lucky, intuitive and "naturals" at all sorts of things. Luke, once aware of his powers was able to perform telekinesis so it'd follow that Rey, once aware of being force sensitive could try stuff she'd heard Jedi had heard stories of like mind tricks. The OT and ST show that the Jedi order's training regiment of the prequels wasn't actually necessary at all. I do agree that the emphasis in TLJ was a bit heavy on Luke failing to be Yoda in those scenes. Any of the traditional training montage like stuff she "fails" is really shown to be Luke's failure in the end with Rey being right, though I'm wondering how much that is down to TLJ being a terribly edited film in the first place. The right way to do those scenes would've had Rey to legitimately fail at things just like Luke did when he went to Dagobah, but the main point there is that Luke also fails at being a teacher so becomes frustrated instead of the classic seemingly dismissive kung-fu instructor Yoda.
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Dec 19, 2019 17:19
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Fuzz posted:The problem with the new movies, though, is that in their attempt to make Rey a strong and powerful female protagonist, they also made her utterly pure of heart and infallible. In TFA she is a crack pilot despite having never flown before, doesn't actually need anyone's help to escape the First Order (which would have been fine and great on its own, but combined with everything else just made her even more ridiculous), and totally kicks the rear end of a dude who has been living and breathing using a lightsaber since he was a child. In TLJ this theme continues with her showing Luke how he's being a silly lump, trying to endear/turn Kylo around to the point where he seizes power to try to rule with her, and dives down into a dark side cave to... look at a mirror or something, it wasn't much of a fail. Top it all off with her saving the day at the end. I guess she kinda fails when she cuts a rock in half? That's the closest she comes to not being perfect. The problem there is that none of that is true or is also true for other protagonists. Like your Han thing. Luke met Ben Kenobi like a day before and when he died you know who was comforting him? The woman whose entire family and planet was just murdered. Luke was The Best Pilot Ever and one of like two people to survive after making an impossible shot. He took down an ATAT on foot. He redeemed Space Hitler. His brush with the dark side lasted about as long as Reys. She beat Kylo Ren after Kylo Ren had literally been shot. She also had years of melee experience with her staff. And before you pull the "staff and swords are different" argument Luke was an expert spaceship pilot despite having only flown aircrafts before. This is what I mean. I would argue the EU gave people brainworms about power levels and hard rules when literally all the film's say "no actually those don't exist and the people who claim they do are wrong." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 17:35
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Anakin was untrained and he raced pods and blew up ships. Luke was untrained and he made a one in a million shot and was able to manipulate objects. Rey at least had the excuse that she had been on her own all her life and had to learn how to defend herself and be resourceful but everyone always complains about the woman being the Mary Sue
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Dec 19, 2019 17:35
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Luke spent like half of Empire failing on Dagobah which made people feel better about everything else.
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Dec 19, 2019 17:43
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Fuzz posted:The problem with the new movies, though, is that in their attempt to make Rey a strong and powerful female protagonist, they also made her utterly pure of heart and infallible. In TFA she is a crack pilot despite having never flown before, doesn't actually need anyone's help to escape the First Order (which would have been fine and great on its own, but combined with everything else just made her even more ridiculous), and totally kicks the rear end of a dude who has been living and breathing using a lightsaber since he was a child. In TLJ this theme continues with her showing Luke how he's being a silly lump, trying to endear/turn Kylo around to the point where he seizes power to try to rule with her, and dives down into a dark side cave to... look at a mirror or something, it wasn't much of a fail. Top it all off with her saving the day at the end. I guess she kinda fails when she cuts a rock in half? That's the closest she comes to not being perfect. none of this will be properly followed up by jj abrams but there is more than enough material to work with. Zane fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 18:07
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Calaveron posted:Anakin was untrained and he raced pods and blew up ships. Luke was untrained and he made a one in a million shot and was able to manipulate objects. Rey at least had the excuse that she had been on her own all her life and had to learn how to defend herself and be resourceful but everyone always complains about the woman being the Mary Sue Yeah. She needs a little more characterization for sure but it's really hard for me to be charitable of the motives anyone questioning her being skilled at a lot of things and saying that makes her a ~mary sue.~ You pointed out a lot of the "heroes in star wars are just broadly competent" precidents. I wanna say specifically the Kylo fight the went out of there way to set up that getting shot with a bowcaster is loving serious and did everything but put debuff icon next to his loving health bar to communicate he's not fighting at 100%. And then he's still sort of kicking her rear end until Kylo mentions The Force. In a line that she echos. As The Force Theme plays. In a film called The Force Awakens. Wow how did she ever find the inner strength to defeat powerful badman? (Drooling helmet guy meme)
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Dec 19, 2019 18:47
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FrostyPox posted:I see some people on the internet saying that this is going to be THE END of Star Wars as a franchise and ruin its future potential forever It will always have fans but lots of people basically abandoned Star Wars after the prequels, including me. If it wasn't for long plane fights I wouldn't have seen anything after force awakens, which I thought was even worse than the prequels. I still haven't seen several movies but can't even remember which ones, and I didn't get fallen order until it was 45% off and I needed something to play. I went to the midnight screening of Phantom Menace for my 19th birthday, which is adult/drinking age where I'm from. What a waste.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:09
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I regret not getting the lightsaber throw.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:17
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ZentraediElite posted:I regret not getting the lightsaber throw. I rarely used it, tbh. It felt like it took long enough that it always left me too open. I'll definitely focus on learning it better whenever I get around to an actual second full playthrough.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:25
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Saber throw is only really useful on blaster enemies since most melee enemies will block it But why throw your saber when you can pull enemies to you and THEN impale them? Makes hilarious short work of the Nightbrother Archers that way
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Dec 19, 2019 19:33
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Well yeah, that's the other thing. Push/Pull are so useful and fun, I'm already gonna be using them all the time anyway. Not to mention blocking blaster fire while running straight up to them just looks like the most badass thing ever if you want to get close. But I'll still try to feel out the saber throw more next time just for variety.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:41
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UnfortunateSexFart posted:It will always have fans but lots of people basically abandoned Star Wars after the prequels, including me. If it wasn't for long plane fights I wouldn't have seen anything after force awakens, which I thought was even worse than the prequels. I still haven't seen several movies but can't even remember which ones, and I didn't get fallen order until it was 45% off and I needed something to play. "Did nothing" is a bit of a blanket statement, but TLJ made over a billion dollars at the box office, KOTOR came out after the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones (which IMO was the absolute worst Star Wars film), and the X-Wing minis game sold so well stores couldn't keep it in stock, so I will revise my statement to say "The prequel trilogy did very little to kill enthusiasm for Star Wars in general". But I can definitely understand someone being turned off to the entire thing after the Phantom Menace and goddamn Jar Jar Binks My main point is even if TRoS is hot garbage, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is, I suspect Star Wars as a whole will be fine in terms of non-film stuff FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 20:12
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Vinylshadow posted:Saber throw is only really useful on blaster enemies since most melee enemies will block it Yeah throw is p loving worthless. Leaves you open, no tracking, slow, not that damaging. I think you can parry at least when you have endgame saber but not even sure of that- still not worth it even if you can, better uses of force energy.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:46
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Throw is great when combined with slow and used at close range. Slow prevents enemies from blocking it, close range means it usually hits twice. It knocks humanoid enemies down and puts them into a lengthy recovery animation, which allows you to get another free hit in. Using it to double hit a Purge Trooper and then following up with a dash attack will usually kill them outright. Regular Scout Troopers do not block it, and it does enough damage to kill them outright, so when the game tosses a bunch of them at you (as it starts to in the final levels), you can basically go bowling with it, using it to thin out the herd so you can focus on the real enemies.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:02
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Zane posted:you're not a very close reader. most of rey's expectations are frustrated in tlj. she believes, at the outset, that she is the hero in a straightforward hero's journey. but the wise man (luke) is a failure who teaches her very little. her destiny is actually an unwritten book (the cave). one of the villains is a red herring and another (kylo) is not straightforwardly good or evil. and she does barely anything to destroy the first order. at the climax of the movie she finds herself reduced to little more than an accessory, a love object, in what seems to be kylo's story. I've commented on this elsewhere, but I read TLJ as the various characters playing at who they think they should be and reacting when that fails. Rey has her frustrations but comes out the end with resolve to help those she cares about. Contrast with Luke who tried to be a teacher in the style of what he thought the Jedi Order was and broke when that failed. His scene with Yoda is then a revelation that while he wasn't the teacher he thought he had to be he still became Rey's teacher in the end, and his sacrifice on Crait is the hero the mythology wants turning out to be an empty projection. Kylo is playing at being Vader and is mocked for it, but after killing Snoke he becomes actually scary (unhinged, but scary) and acting on his own goals of annihilation rather than strategy. Poe tries to be a hotshot pilot, gets people killed, then tries to be the plucky charismatic hero who knows best, screws up some more, and finally becomes the general Leia was trying to get him to be. It feels like Finn's got something similar going on but I can't put the right words to it, partially because it was only resolved right at the end when his attempt to end his own narrative in a pointless sacrifice was foiled, and partly because a lot of his screen time was spent developing a casino of war profiteers rather than anything that directly tied to his character.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:10
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Owlbear Camus posted:You pointed out a lot of the "heroes in star wars are just broadly competent" precidents. I wanna say specifically the Kylo fight the went out of there way to set up that getting shot with a bowcaster is loving serious and did everything but put debuff icon next to his loving health bar to communicate he's not fighting at 100%. And then he's still sort of kicking her rear end until Kylo mentions The Force. In a line that she echos. As The Force Theme plays. In a film called The Force Awakens. Wow how did she ever find the inner strength to defeat powerful badman? (Drooling helmet guy meme) That said (and you're not wrong), the fight in the forest was beautiful. Twilight so the scenery was mostly a contrast of dark trees against a light sky, leaving the ambient lighting up to the lightsabers. I think that may have been the first movie where they fully had the sabers acting as light sources (Attack of the Clones had some that was groundbreaking for its time but only where the CG sabers/blasters were acting with other CG elements, can't recall how Sith did it).
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Dec 19, 2019 21:14
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I tried to rewatch The Phantom Menace last weekend and holy poo poo I forgot how awful it is.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:14
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I hope Cal is a player in a Podracing remake where he uses Slow to disrupt racer's engines, because I imagine a cog being out of sync with everything around it is gonna cause some major damage to the engine
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Dec 19, 2019 21:20
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ImpAtom posted:TFA was far more poorly written than TLJ and the best thing it did was to tell TFA to gently caress off. TLJ is far more thematically coherent especially in modern times when plots about angry self entitled dudes assume they know better than women because they are men (I.e most of TLJ) resonate more than "what if Star Wars but again" TFA basically gave me a feeling of "yep that's certainly a by the numbers JJ Abrams movie." Something about the way that guy directs makes movies extremely unmemorable for me. Like I'm entertained while watching them but they leave zero impact and end up all feeling same-y. I was pleasantly surprised by TLJ, which was actually a fairly distinct movie that I have an easy time remembering. Bruceski posted:I've commented on this elsewhere, but I read TLJ as the various characters playing at who they think they should be and reacting when that fails. Rey has her frustrations but comes out the end with resolve to help those she cares about. Contrast with Luke who tried to be a teacher in the style of what he thought the Jedi Order was and broke when that failed. His scene with Yoda is then a revelation that while he wasn't the teacher he thought he had to be he still became Rey's teacher in the end, and his sacrifice on Crait is the hero the mythology wants turning out to be an empty projection. Kylo is playing at being Vader and is mocked for it, but after killing Snoke he becomes actually scary (unhinged, but scary) and acting on his own goals of annihilation rather than strategy. Poe tries to be a hotshot pilot, gets people killed, then tries to be the plucky charismatic hero who knows best, screws up some more, and finally becomes the general Leia was trying to get him to be. It feels like Finn's got something similar going on but I can't put the right words to it, partially because it was only resolved right at the end when his attempt to end his own narrative in a pointless sacrifice was foiled, and partly because a lot of his screen time was spent developing a casino of war profiteers rather than anything that directly tied to his character. Strongly agree, this is the same impression I got. There's also the whole thing with Rey trying to do a "Vader redemption" to Kylo (this appears to be one of her main goals) and failing. Movie was surprisingly good compared with TFA. Zane posted:none of this will be properly followed up by jj abrams but there is more than enough material to work with. Oh yeah, he's directing the third movie, right? That sucks. ImpAtom posted:She beat Kylo Ren after Kylo Ren had literally been shot. It always amazes me when people just completely ignore this. Dude was seriously hosed up and basically barely functioning during that fight. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 21:33
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Bruceski posted:I've commented on this elsewhere, but I read TLJ as the various characters playing at who they think they should be and reacting when that fails. Rey has her frustrations but comes out the end with resolve to help those she cares about. Contrast with Luke who tried to be a teacher in the style of what he thought the Jedi Order was and broke when that failed. His scene with Yoda is then a revelation that while he wasn't the teacher he thought he had to be he still became Rey's teacher in the end, and his sacrifice on Crait is the hero the mythology wants turning out to be an empty projection. Kylo is playing at being Vader and is mocked for it, but after killing Snoke he becomes actually scary (unhinged, but scary) and acting on his own goals of annihilation rather than strategy. Poe tries to be a hotshot pilot, gets people killed, then tries to be the plucky charismatic hero who knows best, screws up some more, and finally becomes the general Leia was trying to get him to be. It feels like Finn's got something similar going on but I can't put the right words to it, partially because it was only resolved right at the end when his attempt to end his own narrative in a pointless sacrifice was foiled, and partly because a lot of his screen time was spent developing a casino of war profiteers rather than anything that directly tied to his character. Zane fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 21:43
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Braincloud posted:Also, someone please make a game where Im an Inquisitor hunting down the remaining scattered Jedi. You could call it "Star Wars: Fallen Jedi Order". Hire me EA. wait no don't
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Dec 19, 2019 22:37
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Ytlaya posted:It always amazes me when people just completely ignore this. Dude was seriously hosed up and basically barely functioning during that fight. Plus he literally wasn't trying to beat her. He's trying to bring her along with him to be her teacher/bring her to Snoke so he could be her teacher.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:01
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Would be nice if Disney wasn't so squeamish about letting you play as the bad guys and blow up some rebel scum Battlefront II's multiplayer doesn't count, on account of being non-canon Playing through Fallen Order with a red lightsaber is a lot of fun
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Dec 19, 2019 23:01
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Vinylshadow posted:Would be nice if Disney wasn't so squeamish about letting you play as the bad guys and blow up some rebel scum I am okay with not having a Nazi power fantasy game TBH
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Dec 20, 2019 00:19
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I went back to play the start of Control as a direct comparison between Force/telekinesis-wielding characters, and while I absolutely love that game it really made me appreciate how nice it is that Fallen Order just kinda lets you use your Force powers without worrying about recharging when you're outside the stress of battle. Makes running around and dealing with the environment nicer. Jesse could absolutely stomp Cal though  
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Dec 20, 2019 01:01
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ImpAtom posted:TFA was far more poorly written than TLJ and the best thing it did was to tell TFA to gently caress off. TLJ is far more thematically coherent especially in modern times when plots about angry self entitled dudes assume they know better than women because they are men (I.e most of TLJ) resonate more than "what if Star Wars but again" lol hobbesmaster posted:Luke spent like half of Empire failing on Dagobah which made people feel better about everything else. Luke also hastily tries saving his friends and takes on Vader and fucks up on both accounts.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:27
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Finally got around to finishing the game. I had a fun time but I really did not like the platforming at all, it was never challenging or fun in any meaningful way, and it made backtracking really tiresome, so much so that I just lowered the difficulty to power through the end of the story. I liked the last level and the final fight, but I could see why people think its anticlimactic. It wasn't a perfect game but there was a lot to like and I hope they make another one.
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Dec 21, 2019 04:20
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I would love to keep fighting this big monster, getting recked and learning its attack patterns , but it takes 37 seconds to respawn after every attempt. Edit: It turns out the secret was just holding block until it tired itself out. GD it. Haptical Sales Slut fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Dec 21, 2019 |
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Dec 21, 2019 04:27
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Nuts and Gum posted:I would love to keep fighting this big monster, getting recked and learning its attack patterns , but it takes 37 seconds to respawn after every attempt. A Jedi must learn patience
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Dec 21, 2019 04:32
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I feel like I'm missing something about the combat system. I'm pretty good at most things I put my mind to and I've played everything from DMC to Sekiro to Ninja Gaiden and so on, but it's like I skipped a tutorial message about something basic. I'm loving around on Dathomir as my first location, and fighting the bros, it's like, should I time my blocks? When do I attack? How I do that saber it do?
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Dec 22, 2019 02:14
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The combat isn't that hard. Most enemies you want to parry then counter
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Dec 22, 2019 02:15
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I think my brain is being super dumb about the counters, because when I parry, I can't get them to connect. Am I being to slow?
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Dec 22, 2019 02:17
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No it's dumb, also get off dathomir, you can't go very far at all and they should have saved it opening until later in the game when you can actually do stuff
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Dec 22, 2019 02:26
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Possibly being too fast and Dathomir fights are tough at the stage you are. Go kill some stormtroopers.
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Dec 22, 2019 02:33
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Soonmot posted:No it's dumb, also get off dathomir, you can't go very far at all and they should have saved it opening until later in the game when you can actually do stuff Ah, oh well. Also I think I figured it out. I was thinking too much Sekiro and not being aggressive enough, though I still don't always feel like my hits are connecting properly.
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Dec 22, 2019 02:33
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Black Griffon posted:Ah, oh well. Also I think I figured it out. I was thinking too much Sekiro and not being aggressive enough, though I still don't always feel like my hits are connecting properly. Another thing to keep in mind is that you cannot cancel out of attacks by blocking or dodging. There is also a significant delay between blocks. You wont start a new block every time you press the button, Cal will lower his block as soon as you let go and cant raise it again until that animation is finished. You can see this yourself by trying to spam block outside of combat. If something is attacking with a very quick combo its best to just keep blocking rather than try to parry a blow in the middle of the combo.
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Dec 22, 2019 02:51
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to get even more to the point: most purge troopers will fast counter an initial parry. so either keep your block button depressed after your first parry or prepare to quick dodge their fast counter. it's only after the first fast counter that their guard can be more reliably broken.
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Dec 22, 2019 03:05
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For some reason, it helped me to realize that the parry timing is a lot later than you think it is. The idea is to press to button right before the attack connects, animations be damned. Your lightsaber does not need to be lifted to parry. In fact, it doesn't even need to be out; my new favorite thing is approaching an enemy with no weapon drawn and then instantly parrying their first strike. Parrying does not guarantee an opening. Stronger enemies (like the night bros) can continue a combo even if you parry the first hit. Other enemies have special counterattacks to parries, which you may or may not also be able to parry. The only thing parrying really guarantees is that you won't take damage and your block stamina won't go down. It's a tool to be used situationally; different enemies respond to it in different ways, and the only way to figure out these differences is to experiment. It is good for breaking the guards of enemies with stamina meters. But you can also break most enemies' guards by just attacking them a lot. Once you break their guards, you have longer than you might think to attack them, so don't be afraid to use a stronger attack or to back off and run back in if another enemy is pressuring you. If you don't damage them fast enough, their guard will start to regenerate, but it is not instant; if you attack fast enough, you will break and stun them again. There are some cases where you can slip through an enemy's defenses and attack them directly without draining their stamina. Any move with a big wind up (like most red attacks) will leave enemies open to attack, but be warned; attacking them will not always stop the move, so be prepared to dodge. A lot of the time, it is safer to just hold block. Remember, a blocked attack will not hurt you, but a failed parry might. If you're unfamiliar with an enemy's patterns, just block them for a bit until you get used to the timings.
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Dec 22, 2019 03:25
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Black Griffon posted:Ah, oh well. Also I think I figured it out. I was thinking too much Sekiro and not being aggressive enough, though I still don't always feel like my hits are connecting properly. The hit detection and overall swordplay (saberplay?) is a lot looser than Sekiro, youre not crazy
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Dec 22, 2019 03:51
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Yeah as much fun as I had playing through a fun star wars story, I kept wishing the gameplay were more like sekiro.
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Dec 22, 2019 04:23
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