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SubG posted:Don't tell anyone but I have a keyboard connected to a guitar amp. That's okay, so did Jon Lord from Deep Purple.
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Dec 18, 2019 00:11
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:Care to explain more? It does piss me off when people say something is wrong but don't bother to say what's actually correct. Oh I definitely don’t think it’s true. I’m just saying that I’ve heard multiple other people spread this untruth. I don’t know where it comes from either. I guess it’s people just wild rear end guessing something because some people might say it’s intuitive to think bass frequencies are “more powerful“ or something, when that statement is only like fractionally truthful in a very specific context? I really don’t know. It doesn’t surprise me though, as anything audio-related tends to have an absurd amount of bullshit and snake oil surrounding it for whatever reason. People just assume poo poo with an extremely limited understanding of whatever it is they’re thinking about and feel qualified to just present their assumptions as cold hard fact because their ego doesn’t let them consider that maybe they don’t know everything. You tend to see this with music and creative types a lot. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 00:19
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I had to read your post a couple of times and I think we're misunderstanding each other a bit. Sorry for being snarky. I interpreted this: GreatGreen posted:That's actually a weirdly prolific myth. I've heard it from multiple different people too. But I think you meant it as a reply to my earlier statement about frequencies, right? IIRC, the details I heard about that wasn't that bass frequencies were more 'powerful', but they have longer wavelengths (true) and therefore push more air (also true) which means that the speaker cones move more and hence can be damaged if they move too much, which I'm guessing is not actually true, at least in this case. I dunno, I guess it sounded reasonable to me at the time and I never really thought about it much. To be honest that wouldn't be the first time and it probably won't be the last. You are totally right, there's a lot of bullshit around audio and I think part of it is that there's a lot of subjectivity around what you're actually hearing, not helped by people having tinnitus or whatever. It also doesn't help that there's a lot of actual science involved and it's really difficult to tell what's legit and what's not unless you're trained in and familiar with science. Even then that's no guarantee.
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Dec 18, 2019 00:50
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Bass frequencies do produce longer excursions, and that can produce mechanical failures, it just isn't common in instrument amplifiers. Like if you run into an amp that's reproducing 0.5Hz at a meaningful level you're returning the amp because it sounds like a trash barge. The physics are real but the devices are designed with this stuff in mind. Frequency-related blowout is the realm of your illiterate teenage nephew with the monster logo tattoo who spent all summer stuffing speakers into his civic and configured his active crossover so badly that it's pushing 500Hz into a tweeter and one saturday night the poor little thing cracks open.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:37
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The difference between a bass amp and a guitar amp, at least in most classic circuits, is maybe a capacitor or two, if that. Modern bass amps will have an eq centered around frequencies that bass players care about but set it flat and it’s a guitar amp. A Marshall Super Bass is used by guitarists all the time and a Marshall Super Lead sounds dope on bass. The original Sunn Model T is a Marshall Super Bass with ultralinear power amp. Dang It Bhabhi! fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 04:05
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I use an old Acoustic head and Ampeg cabinet for guitar, bass, and keyboard.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:49
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:IIRC, the details I heard about that wasn't that bass frequencies were more 'powerful', but they have longer wavelengths (true) and therefore push more air (also true) which means that the speaker cones move more and hence can be damaged if they move too much, which I'm guessing is not actually true, at least in this case. Frequency is only the rate in which a speaker cone will travel. There's no extra air pushed or the cones moving more. If a speaker is being driven to go +/- x depth, it shouldn't matter at what frequency. And it would be strange to think that a slower rate would cause damage. What really happens is that at equal intensity, the human hearing system can't hear bass frequencies as well as other frequency ranges. So to have equivalent perceptual volume, you have to increase the intensity and you are then moving the speaker at a greater depth.
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Dec 18, 2019 06:20
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The closest I've come to an explanation is that if you push an amp into clipping there's more power being sent to the speaker than the wattage rating of the amp indicates, because of how amp power is measured. This is, I'm told, easy to do by accident with the bass since those frequencies need to be much louder to get heard. Crank responsibly, kids.
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Dec 18, 2019 07:27
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Rifter17 posted:Frequency is only the rate in which a speaker cone will travel. There's no extra air pushed or the cones moving more. If a speaker is being driven to go +/- x depth, it shouldn't matter at what frequency. And it would be strange to think that a slower rate would cause damage. Siivola posted:The closest I've come to an explanation is that if you push an amp into clipping there's more power being sent to the speaker than the wattage rating of the amp indicates, because of how amp power is measured. This is, I'm told, easy to do by accident with the bass since those frequencies need to be much louder to get heard. I think we're all on the same page now and that must have been what the person who told me that was confused about all those years ago - it's not the bass frequencies themselves but how much louder they have to be to be able to hear them at the same volume as treble frequencies. So am I still right in saying that you'd generally need a bigger bass amp than guitar amp to hear them at the same volume?
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Dec 18, 2019 08:15
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Basically. You need to have a system that would be able to produce greater output to maintain similar perceptual volume.
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Dec 18, 2019 16:38
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:So am I still right in saying that you'd generally need a bigger bass amp than guitar amp to hear them at the same volume? Yes, the lower the frequencies are that you're pushing, the more watts will be needed to hear them (cleanly) at equal volume with mids and highs. A lot of bass players recommend something like a 300 watt bass amp to compete with 100 watt guitar amps, for examples. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 16:47
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Also likely relevant is that bass players generally prefer cleaner tones, and that wattage headroom before clipping is important for them. The louder you can go without the amp distorting, the better. Which is why, of course, guitarists started using bass amps in the first place: more volume.
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Dec 18, 2019 17:17
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:So am I still right in saying that you'd generally need a bigger bass amp than guitar amp to hear them at the same volume? Yep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour  Useful stuff for any musician to know about really. Edit: I guess it's worth adding that, apart from the fact that low bass frequencies are perceptually softer vs actual dB, guitar speakers' frequency responses also typically drop off below 80Hz (just below E2). So if you're trying to play your 40Hz E1 on your bass (or 31Hz B0 if you have a 5-string) through a guitar amp, you're simultaneously fighting against the frequency response of the speaker and decreased perceptual loudness. This increases the chances that you feed too much power into your speaker trying to hear anything and explode it. Lead out in cuffs fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 07:22
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Wait, are you telling me that guitar amps are designed not to djent? I mean, using a bass amp to djent makes sense, but for some reason I figured that guitar amps could actually reproduce the lower frequencies. I have had low key wondering about what amps to use for guitars that in most cases will be below standard bass tuning though... And for the record, I assume all of this relates somehow to the fact that a violin is small and loud, while a double bass is huge and quiet (or at least not louder than the violin)?
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Dec 19, 2019 20:01
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BonHair posted:Wait, are you telling me that guitar amps are designed not to djent? I mean, using a bass amp to djent makes sense, but for some reason I figured that guitar amps could actually reproduce the lower frequencies. I have had low key wondering about what amps to use for guitars that in most cases will be below standard bass tuning though... I guess so. They can still reproduce the frequencies, but the volume drops off drastically. That said, I Googled a few actual frequency responses, and it looks like bass cabs drop off in that frequency range too (just not as quickly). Marshall guitar 4x12:  Mesa Boogie Traditional Powerhouse 410 bass:  So I guess your mileage may vary. But yeah, if you're playing Djent, you may want to look around to find a cab that'll give you good low-end response.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:29
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BonHair posted:Wait, are you telling me that guitar amps are designed not to djent? I mean, using a bass amp to djent makes sense, but for some reason I figured that guitar amps could actually reproduce the lower frequencies. I have had low key wondering about what amps to use for guitars that in most cases will be below standard bass tuning though... Guitar amps can produce reasonably low frequencies (comfortably producing 80-90 Hz is pretty satisfactorily low-sounding for guitar) but a djent guitar sound isn't about the low frequencies. It's about the character of the distortion. If anything, you want to reduce the low frequencies a djenting guitar amp is producing so the distortion can remain clear and cutting, while the actual bass guitar does the heavy lifting down low.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:48
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One of the reasons Mesa Rectifiers were associated with nu-metal and early djent is because the cabs are physically larger and allow the lower frequencies to propagate within the cab better and supposedly tighten up response with downtuned guitars. That's a big reason you often have to turn the bass down so frickin far on those things; the cab does some of that heavy lifting. Bass is a physically large, long wave. It takes a lot of space to fully develop. How good your bass response is has more to do with cab and room shape and size than most anything else. This is also why basses are physically large (big resonating space and long, thick strings) and violins are physically small (small resonating space and short, thin strings). Or the bassoon vs the piccolo. Or your phone speaker vs a well-engineered large PA system. Or an 8x10 Ampeg cab vs a 1x10 Ampeg cab. This is all to say that yes, guitar amps CAN produce low, even very low, frequencies. They just won't be very efficient at it, and it's possible that the frequencies you're looking for might not even be present due to the electronics of the amp and/or the physical design of the cab. edit: also this - GreatGreen posted:Guitar amps can produce reasonably low frequencies (comfortably producing 80-90 Hz is pretty satisfactorily low-sounding for guitar) but a djent guitar sound isn't about the low frequencies. It's about the character of the distortion. If anything, you want to reduce the low frequencies a djenting guitar amp is producing so the distortion can remain clear and cutting, while the actual bass guitar does the heavy lifting down low.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:59
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rickiep00h posted:One of the reasons Mesa Rectifiers were associated with nu-metal and early djent is because the cabs are physically larger and allow the lower frequencies to propagate within the cab better and supposedly tighten up response with downtuned guitars. That's a big reason you often have to turn the bass down so frickin far on those things; the cab does some of that heavy lifting. i built an open back 2x12 with the same dimensions as the mesa vertical cab to go with my mini rec and i have to leave the bass almost all the way off on the high gain channel and it still rattles poo poo around the room at like a quarter of the way up on the master in retrospect it was kind of a dumb idea but whatever
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Dec 19, 2019 21:37
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Those are speaker cabinet responses not amps. Guitar amps can produce bass just fine and if it IS a problem you can adjust filter caps to enhance the low end for any amp.
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Dec 20, 2019 04:35
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Lead out in cuffs posted:
Or get an Axe FX, Kemper, Bias, or other amp emulating system and plug straight into the mix. 90% of all djent lords I know have never owned a cabinet.
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Dec 20, 2019 06:55
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The whole "oh god am I going to make my amp explode" thing is essentially the number one reason I haven't already bought like a $100 bass and just started jamming on it I even asked for effortposts (and got them) explaining why it makes your amp explode in a goon thread some time back, so it's an opinion that lives here as well
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Dec 20, 2019 06:58
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kjetting posted:Or get an Axe FX, Kemper, Bias, or other amp emulating system and plug straight into the mix. 90% of all djent lords I know have never owned a cabinet. Yeah was gonna say this too.
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Dec 20, 2019 07:31
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 ... and then “Circle of Sound” at the end. Lol
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Dec 20, 2019 22:29
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to his credit the sound circle guy made a follow-up video and was a good sport about goofing up
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Dec 20, 2019 22:35
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kjetting posted:Or get an Axe FX, Kemper, Bias, or other amp emulating system and plug straight into the mix. 90% of all djent lords I know have never owned a cabinet.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:51
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Cam does it again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsB5Y2J3Lqw As someone who was endlessly frustrated by never being able to nail down Mike's RLKKRLKK fills, this pleases me greatly.
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Dec 22, 2019 23:48
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you can, and should, plug instruments(and other sound making devices that are not instruments) into amps of all kinds
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Dec 23, 2019 14:44
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Dec 23, 2019 21:58
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Man, that is a clean wiring job.
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Dec 23, 2019 22:06
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The switches, jacks, knobs, and enclosure are the most expensive parts of a build. The actual circuitry is normally just a few bucks worth of components. Why would somebody do this?
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Dec 23, 2019 22:18
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Thumposaurus posted:The switches, jacks, knobs, and enclosure are the most expensive parts of a build. The actual circuitry is normally just a few bucks worth of components. Because the pedal costs a fuckload and they were trying to get return $$$ on it.
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Dec 24, 2019 03:07
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Dang It Bhabhi! posted:Because the pedal costs a fuckload and they were trying to get return $$$ on it. Exactly how much $$$? Because as noted, the case, pots and switches already cost $$.
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Dec 24, 2019 09:08
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Exactly how much $$$? Because as noted, the case, pots and switches already cost $$. Its like 300€+ for a loving tremolo
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Dec 24, 2019 10:35
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W424 posted:Its like 300€+ for a loving tremolo Jesus, that's getting into audiophile territory.
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Dec 24, 2019 10:55
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This is the actual far side of the Gravitas. Every loving one of their pedals has a massive bank of dip switches on the side that all do something but nobody knows what.
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Dec 24, 2019 11:01
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Every Chase Bliss pedal is 100% worth it tbh
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Dec 24, 2019 12:40
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Clayton Bigsby posted:Jesus, that's getting into audiophile territory. Almost the standard cost for pedals these days that aren't from Aliexpress.
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Dec 24, 2019 15:07
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Philthy posted:Almost the standard cost for pedals these days that aren't from Aliexpress. Ibanez charges like $200 for a tubescreamer these days (hand wired! Original Components!) TS clones are the same circuit and start at $40 edit: I've never seen a Gravitas demo before, this thing is insane! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRoWi-p25EQ Jonny Nox fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Dec 24, 2019 |
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Dec 24, 2019 16:13
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yeah this thread has a constant problem with understanding how much it costs to build anyhthing if you're not, like, owned by roland corp or whatever. chase bliss makes some pretty groundbreaking stuff and they're still a pretyt small operation
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Dec 24, 2019 16:42
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Concatenation posted:yeah this thread has a constant problem with understanding how much it costs to build anyhthing if you're not, like, owned by roland corp or whatever. chase bliss makes some pretty groundbreaking stuff and they're still a pretyt small operation From the looks of the behind the scenes videos, I think it's just one dude who designs it all.
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Dec 24, 2019 16:45
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