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No cause if the rules are clear about one thing that they were never clear about that means that they're even less clear about some other things because of reasons I just made up. (It's a loving crime we didn't get 4.5e with siloed mechanics for like social and exploratory classes that you could mix and match, where they payed the same amount of attention to those as they did combat. Something like Burning Wheel but actually able to fit into a human brain. I can dream. I want to make a Tiefling Warlock Extrovert Grave-Robber, drat it. ) D&D has always been a combat game with some very crudely bolted-on role-playing things. For better or worse. 4e made the combat in itself a fun game. Would I be interested in a game that was less invested in combat and had more role-playing caked into the system? Hell yes. I already play several. Is that any version of D&D or a retroclone that I know of? gently caress no. Half of them haven't even figured out their basic math. What the gently caress?
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Dec 19, 2019 06:28
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as somebody who started with 3.5, 4e had way better lore in the core book. the 3.5 player handbook didn't even have a write up of whom the gods were that the cleric was supposed to worship
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Dec 19, 2019 09:55
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CitizenKeen posted:You'll never run Lancer again? Because it's too crunchy? Please go on.
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Dec 19, 2019 10:16
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Elfgames posted:as somebody who started with 3.5, 4e had way better lore in the core book. the 3.5 player handbook didn't even have a write up of whom the gods were that the cleric was supposed to worship Huh? Yes it did. It’s in the background chapter with alignment and the height/weight tables.
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Dec 19, 2019 10:26
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Hostile V posted:My style of GMing is just not entirely compatible with a game that focuses on positional combat and encounter-building like that is all. It's not a flaw with the game, I still love the game, but I'm pretty sure I'd have the same problems with 4e considering my own grasp issues with Lancer and Gamma World 7e. I'm more of a narrative and reactive GM. e: not trying to imply you hold either view BTW, I'm agreeing with you, not trying to rebut you Splicer fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 10:53
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01011001 posted:In what way is 4E less designed for Not Combat than any other edition? - Dullbrain option: Turns out that the 4E team were in fact fallible and that designing a game system intended to operate in tandem with a virtual tabletop only for your virtual tabletop project to go off the rails due to a traumatic murder-suicide committed by one of your work colleagues isn't conducive to producing a robust game, and really we should be more astonished that they got as much of 4E as right as they did, with Skill Challenges and monster HPs being notably janky exceptions, rather than the entire game being janked from top to bottom. - Enlightened galaxy brain option: the genius 4E designers made Skill Challenges bad on purpose, so that they would act as a deterrent for Not Combat; as a result of the horror of Skill Challenges, 4E players were trained to avoid Not Combat because they knew that's where the risk of encountering a Skill Challenge was.
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Dec 19, 2019 12:09
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Warthur posted:The major novel idea it brings to the table for Not Combat is the Skill Challenge system, which was so broken RAW, and broken in the patches, and kept being patched (but remained broken) over the course of 4E's life. Which suggests one of two things: Wait what?
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Dec 19, 2019 12:13
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oh hey, Olivia Hill's #iHunt rpg is out. As the tagline says, it's about hunting monsters in the gig economy. http://machineage.tokyo/2019/12/19/ihunt-the-rpg-now-live-for-sale/
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Dec 19, 2019 12:20
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Len posted:Wait what? Exactly as it says. As I recall, the developers of the 4e virtual tabletop were a husband and wife duo, then the husband went berserk, killed her, then himself.
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Dec 19, 2019 12:41
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potatocubed posted:Exactly as it says. As I recall, the developers of the 4e virtual tabletop were a husband and wife duo, then the husband went berserk, killed her, then himself. I was really hoping it was some sort of murdered (the project) and suicide (their career) thing. And not an actual murder suicide
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Dec 19, 2019 12:43
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My experience of trying to read the D&D 4e Player's Handbook was that my eyes started glazing over sometime around the fifth power of each class. Since the really interesting parts of the game appear to be in those powers, it made the game really difficult to comprehend. I have similar issues with the long lists of Charms in Exalted, and spells in Mage: the Awakening. There's just so much to take in at once, which is a barrier to my comprehension of the game and what's so fun about it.
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Dec 19, 2019 12:58
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Yeah that whole mess is one of the big factors into why 4e didn't do as well as WOTC wanted it to do, and thus part of why they ended up going in such a radically different direction for 5e
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Dec 19, 2019 12:59
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Arivia posted:Huh? Yes it did. It’s in the background chapter with alignment and the height/weight tables. Now, now you can't expect anyone to remember Greyhawk deities in this day and age
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Dec 19, 2019 13:20
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LatwPIAT posted:My experience of trying to read the D&D 4e Player's Handbook was that my eyes started glazing over sometime around the fifth power of each class. Since the really interesting parts of the game appear to be in those powers, it made the game really difficult to comprehend. I have similar issues with the long lists of Charms in Exalted, and spells in Mage: the Awakening. There's just so much to take in at once, which is a barrier to my comprehension of the game and what's so fun about it.
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Dec 19, 2019 13:21
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potatocubed posted:Exactly as it says. As I recall, the developers of the 4e virtual tabletop were a husband and wife duo, then the husband went berserk, killed her, then himself. They weren't working together and were separated at the time, but otherwise that's right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_and_Melissa_Batten Joseph Batten was working on all 4e's virtual tools, which severely hamstrung DDI and meant that the full virtual tabletop they'd promised would hook into the character builder never materialized.
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Dec 19, 2019 13:28
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Hostile V posted:My style of GMing is just not entirely compatible with a game that focuses on positional combat and encounter-building like that is all. It's not a flaw with the game, I still love the game, but I'm pretty sure I'd have the same problems with 4e considering my own grasp issues with Lancer and Gamma World 7e. I'm more of a narrative and reactive GM. This is entirely fair and valid. I'm obviously a huge Lancer fan but you're absolutely correct, it's a game that is very specifically focused on a certain mode of play and it's not something narrative.
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Dec 19, 2019 13:59
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Magnusth posted:oh hey, Olivia Hill's #iHunt rpg is out. As the tagline says, it's about hunting monsters in the gig economy. thank you for the notice, it had fallen off my radar and I am very glad to have it fall back on
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Dec 19, 2019 14:22
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LatwPIAT posted:My experience of trying to read the D&D 4e Player's Handbook was that my eyes started glazing over sometime around the fifth power of each class. Since the really interesting parts of the game appear to be in those powers, it made the game really difficult to comprehend. I have similar issues with the long lists of Charms in Exalted, and spells in Mage: the Awakening. There's just so much to take in at once, which is a barrier to my comprehension of the game and what's so fun about it. It's incredibly dry, yeah. Compare it to something like 13th Age or Strike, which has loads of little asides and commentaries about how you can style things, or reskin them. Something like that would have helped give it a bit more oomph.
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Dec 19, 2019 14:55
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I keep forgetting if 4e is terrible because it describes things, or because it doesn't describe things. Did ENWorld ever reach a consensus on that?
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Dec 19, 2019 15:38
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It's both, and neither (because it was terrible due to being WoW on paper, obviously)
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Dec 19, 2019 15:49
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Hostile V posted:My style of GMing is just not entirely compatible with a game that focuses on positional combat and encounter-building like that is all. It's not a flaw with the game, I still love the game, but I'm pretty sure I'd have the same problems with 4e considering my own grasp issues with Lancer and Gamma World 7e. I'm more of a narrative and reactive GM. Perfect. Thanks. I'm using a total conversion of Lancer to D&D-adjacent fantasy to get back to what I wanted a DDI-less 4E to be, so I'm on the lookout for Lancer criticisms. "That style of game is not the game for me" is an easy one to solve. Thank you again.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:20
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Have you checked out Let Thrones Beware yet? I also recommend Empire of Dust, though that's a bitch to find.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:39
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Halloween Jack posted:Have you checked out Let Thrones Beware yet? I have not. Thank you!
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Dec 19, 2019 19:01
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Magnusth posted:oh hey, Olivia Hill's #iHunt rpg is out. As the tagline says, it's about hunting monsters in the gig economy. I wish I understood FATE because this sounds very neat
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Dec 19, 2019 19:06
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Thinking about the GURPS Transhuman Space Erotopus and I would like to stop. I'm a day late but I want to remind everyone of the Thigh Gap Shark from HC SVNT DRACONES.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:03
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What are y’all’s favorite core book just from a reading perspective? I like 13th Age’s authors chiming in and saying “we do it this way but you can do it this other way” and the way that it has a lot of plot hooks that it leaves up to the GM to fill in, like the way it says “things would get real bad if the High Druid and the Orc Lord ever teamed up, hint hint” I also adore Tenra Bansho Zero, I read both the rule book and the setting book cover-to-cover, but I doubt I’ll ever get my group to run it
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Dec 19, 2019 20:10
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Spire has the best single Core Book I've read because you don't need anything more than it to have a rich setting with the right mix of detail and hook to get you going and empty space for you to work with. Also, really fun classes that immediately make people want to play as them. There are a lot of other games with decent core books, or lines that I've enjoyed, but for a single book? Spire is probably the best I've read.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:20
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Pretty much anything Jenna Moran has ever written. I find her breezy style highly entertaining. (So I bought her novels too. Unclean Legacy is my favourite.)
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Dec 19, 2019 20:34
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thetoughestbean posted:What are y’all’s favorite core book just from a reading perspective? I like 13th Age’s authors chiming in and saying “we do it this way but you can do it this other way” and the way that it has a lot of plot hooks that it leaves up to the GM to fill in, like the way it says “things would get real bad if the High Druid and the Orc Lord ever teamed up, hint hint” The original Dresden Files RPG (Accelerated is almost as good and far better to play). The original is written as an in-universe artifact from memory by Billy the Werewolf from the Dresden Files universe to teach the rest of the pack about the supernatural world. And you've a mix of "post it notes" and writing in the margins by Billy, Harry Dresden, and Bob the Skull that are a mix of asking for explanations, expanding on lore, and just plain snarking at each other.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:49
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The Dying Earth RPG (by Robin Laws) is probably my favorite done-in-one RPG core book. A complete (and very innovative) game, fun to read, and written in a lot of ways to evoke the feeling of the setting it's engaging with.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:49
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Dresden Files was such a fun book to read that it's a real pity that the one game I played in it was so awful I never want to touch it again. Seconding Tenra Bansho Zero as well, and L5R 4e is just gorgeous to page through.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:53
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Abyssal Squid posted:I'm a day late but I want to remind everyone of the Thigh Gap Shark from HC SVNT DRACONES. Honestly, kinda wish you didn't.  thetoughestbean posted:What are y’all’s favorite core book just from a reading perspective? Gotta go with the crowd, both 13th Age and Dresden Files were really well done books, even if the actual systems themselves ended up not being my jam.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:07
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MÖRK BORG. Everything, from the crazy font use to art that is simultaneously simplistic and masterful to the d66 table where each set of six is a six-line psalm, evokes the image that it's going for. It's just a specific type of pleasure to read.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:07
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thetoughestbean posted:What are y’all’s favorite core book just from a reading perspective? I like 13th Age’s authors chiming in and saying “we do it this way but you can do it this other way” and the way that it has a lot of plot hooks that it leaves up to the GM to fill in, like the way it says “things would get real bad if the High Druid and the Orc Lord ever teamed up, hint hint”
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Dec 19, 2019 21:10
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Leraika posted:Dresden Files was such a fun book to read that it's a real pity that the one game I played in it was so awful I never want to touch it again. Yeah it really takes the big mechanical flaws with FATE and drives them up to 11.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:17
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Flail Snail posted:MÖRK BORG. Everything, from the crazy font use to art that is simultaneously simplistic and masterful to the d66 table where each set of six is a six-line psalm, evokes the image that it's going for. It's just a specific type of pleasure to read.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:18
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36 values is a pretty solid number for a randomized table.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:19
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01011001 posted:36 values is a pretty solid number for a randomized table. True fact. Interesting related fact: Pathfinder 2e has nothing that uses a d100 roll so far but does have it defined. I'm interested to see if they bring it back just for random tables in the GameMastery Guide, which would be a mistake considering all the other better dice math they have throughout the system. Also I have a copy of Nobilis 2e and it's the prettiest RPG core rulebook I own, even if I probably won't ever run it. My vote for most inspiring definitely goes to the 1e DMG, though.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:25
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Godlike is the best core book to read from cover to cover, because it correctly assumes anyone who wants to play a gritty superhero game in WWII is in it for the historical details and weird stories about superpowers. Also, the rules are pretty good and presented well.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:41
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potatocubed posted:Pretty much anything Jenna Moran has ever written. I find her breezy style highly entertaining. (So I bought her novels too. Unclean Legacy is my favourite.)
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Dec 19, 2019 23:24
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