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A more interesting thing to change would be the fine structure constant. E = mc to the fourth makes no sense because of units. Btw, in most physical calculations, c is assumed to be 1. It's a good rule of thumb both in cosmology, relativity, and even some quantum mechanics - the calculations massively simplify and it is trivial to substitute c back into calculations using unit analysis. Speed of light is a very, very fundamental basis of nature, which is another reason breaking it carries far reaching implications. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 11:02
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ashpanash posted:The causality implications are there for any form of FTL, whether it violates special relativity locally or not. I mean any spacetime metric with embedded wormholes will be wild, but my understanding is you can make it that it's workable on paper and things already in the metric outside the wormholes will be ok. However, that says nothing about physical stability. My suspicion is under perturbative influence in standard stability analysis, the spacetime outside the wormholes will start doing real, real crazy poo poo. Sounds like a good idea for some research actually 
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Dec 18, 2019 11:08
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Yeah, if the FTL-thing doesn't pan out, at least we'll get a fancy new weapon to play around with Win-win! 
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Dec 18, 2019 11:11
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FFT posted:My "solution" in a setting that never went anywhere was the discovery of a layer with a light speed of c2. Gave up on it somewhere in the "therefore e=mc4, that seems horrifying" stage I think. What if it turned out that even if top speeds were limited to half lightspeed, distances in hypospace were half as long?
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Dec 18, 2019 14:03
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Libluini posted:Not if we postulate wormholes connecting through some sort of outer layer of the cosmos we haven't found yet. You're already postulating something that the laws of physics as we understand them tells us is impossible (stable wormholes), now you're adding large extra dimensions on top of it? Layering assumptions always leads to nonsense.
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Dec 18, 2019 18:19
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Illuminti posted:I know right!? what's the holdup I, for one, would vote we talk about wormholes over goddamn stupid von neumann probes ITT.
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Dec 18, 2019 18:29
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ashpanash posted:You're already postulating something that the laws of physics as we understand them tells us is impossible (stable wormholes), now you're adding large extra dimensions on top of it? Layering assumptions always leads to nonsense. But enough about string theory.
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Dec 18, 2019 19:13
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ashpanash posted:You're already postulating something that the laws of physics as we understand them tells us is impossible (stable wormholes), now you're adding large extra dimensions on top of it? Layering assumptions always leads to nonsense. Technically, hyperspace has its own dimensions, separate from the dimensions we know. Hyperspace is more like the medium surrounding an universe and while it's nice to blindly speculate about this non of it is actually my Idea, I'm just writing down stuff I've read in German SF and abusing the fact translations into English failed multiple times so you can't possibly know Anyway, to step back for a moment, I also read some science crap long ago claiming you could stabilize wormholes with exotic matter, so I would call stable wormholes highly unlikely, not Impossible. Also I believe strongly the effects of spacetime twisted by a wormholes will be highly localiced and won't affect anything outside themselves. Edit: My phone hosed up and my train is closing in on the end Station, so I'm forced to Stop here and add my explanation for the last paragraph later.
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Dec 18, 2019 19:50
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If we're talking about weird stupid hypothetical sci-fi, I liked what Neal Stephenson did in Anathem for exotic materials. They called it "newmatter" and it was atoms formed under different universal constants than the regular universe (i.e. in a particle accelerator), so they had exotic properties that were impossible with the elements in the known periodic table. We can't create new magnetic monopoles and cosmic strings and negative-mass hadrons, but if we had big bang-level energies in a collider, maybe we could?
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Dec 18, 2019 20:10
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Note: The tone of my response here is not aiming to be scolding or dickish. I love sci-fi and I also don't want to discourage anyone from thinking outside the box or coming up with new ideas. But I do feel like, insofar as the subject at hand was actual, known, experimentally verified physics, I need to be clear and specific:Libluini posted:Technically, hyperspace has its own dimensions, separate from the dimensions we know. Technically, hyperspace is not a thing, it's just a concept sci-fi writers came up with to skate around physics. quote:Anyway, to step back for a moment, I also read some science crap long ago claiming you could stabilize wormholes with exotic matter, so I would call stable wormholes highly unlikely, not Impossible. Definitely science crap. Exotic matter is a purely speculative concept that also violates physics as we understand it. Maybe it's possible, but it's not even theory or hypothesis at this point. It's pure conjecture, invented to make the math work. If something like it existed without modification to the laws of physics as we understand them, the universe wouldn't make sense. You'd get things reverse entropy - it would not be able to be in a lower energy state and would push itself into higher and higher energy states, getting energy from nothing, increasing its temperature and energy density to infinity. That's the kind of speculation we're talking about. quote:Also I believe strongly the effects of spacetime twisted by a wormholes will be highly localiced and won't affect anything outside themselves. Well, I don't know. My GR is pretty basic, I have a basic understanding of the EFEs and the Schwarzchild metric. I'd have to run it by some people more knowledgeable than I am in the topic, but like I said, it's an interesting question. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 20:21
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To bring this back to real topics and not woo based sci fi mumbo jumbo. There was a recent video posted by PBS Spacetime regarding the idea of a "natural selection" process in regards to a multiverse. The idea behind the thought experiment is to see if there's a way to test a multi-verse theory without invoking the anthropic principle. In short it doesn't seem to be possible with our current understanding. I Like the idea of an evolving universe, but i do not think the idea of parent/daughter universes holds merit. However, Any attempt to avoid using the anthropic principle is good in my book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFgpKlcpzNM
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Dec 18, 2019 20:53
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Libluini posted:Anyway, to step back for a moment, I also read some science crap long ago claiming you could stabilize wormholes with exotic matter, so I would call stable wormholes highly unlikely, not Impossible. ashpanash posted:Well, I don't know. My GR is pretty basic, I have a basic understanding of the EFEs and the Schwarzchild metric. I'd have to run it by some people more knowledgeable than I am in the topic, but like I said, it's an interesting question. To get back on this, my thoughts on the matter are that if wormholes are possible, they're very probably aren't gonna gently caress up all of space when they form, that would be like if it were possible to set the entire planet on fire by blowing up a nuke. Which is something scientists actually thought possible, while unlikely -until it was proven to be baloney. What I think will really happen in a hypothetical wormhole-scenario, is that the spacetime inside a wormhole will get twisted enough to be bigger on the inside than outside, with the outside being like, a photon wide in diameter and the inside large enough for a kilometer-long spaceship to get through*. This kind of rolled-up spacetime at least seems more likely to me than whatever String-theorists are going on about with their rolled-up extra dimensions. At least here only our normal dimensions need to be rolled up to make this possible. *Depending on how much effort you put into compressing spacetime this much, of course. Could be that even if it's possible, making a stable wormhole large enough for spaceships may turn out to be too much for a very long time, so communication (at the lower end) or a single-person transfer (at the higher end) may be the only practical applications. If it works like that, since we have zero evidence to distinguish between the three main possibilities here: 1.) Wormholes aren't real, go home, you're drunk 2.) Wormholes are real, but trying to make a stable one fucks up spacetime so much, angry space gods decent to eat you 3.) Wormholes are real, and strong, and our friends. They eat a lot of energy, though With our purely mathematical knowledge and what little we learned from studying actual black holes, we don't know which of those three options will turn out to be real and which ones will be the fake news of the scientific world. I'm a firm believer in 3, but I'm willing to admit that the universe may secretly laughing over my be stupidity. Infinite Karma posted:If we're talking about weird stupid hypothetical sci-fi, I liked what Neal Stephenson did in Anathem for exotic materials. That's interesting! All my knowledge about exotic matter comes from science articles I've read many years ago, so it's nice to see some authors use this weird concept for their books. ashpanash posted:Note: The tone of my response here is not aiming to be scolding or dickish. I love sci-fi and I also don't want to discourage anyone from thinking outside the box or coming up with new ideas. But I do feel like, insofar as the subject at hand was actual, known, experimentally verified physics, I need to be clear and specific: Don't worry, with my bad joke about hyperspace I deserve this. So, I'm well aware that a lot of authors like to use a "hyperspace" to nullify the dreaded real physics malus on their novel stats, but whenever someone puts real thought into the concept of additional layers of the universe, I tend to really like it and speculate about how we, with our knowledge today, would have to go about to find those additional layers. Now my hyperspace-comments were halfway meant as jokes, as I know that many English authors just write down something like "hyperspace = cool, normal space = boring" and then stop thinking about it, while I grew up with German SF ballooning this concept up into an entire alternative descriptions of physics and the way those two different ideas of hyperspace collide with each other will never not be funny to me. But I really do sometimes wonder if we're just one tiny step away from finding something like hyperspace. I think most SF is actively harmful for ideas like this, since most English SF with hyperspace in it doesn't really impress me on the plausibility-scale and often it's just a shorthand to make FTL work instead of an actual thought-out concept of how physics could work. Now that I'm typing it, I'm thinking about dark matter and dark energy and if maybe the particles we want to find may turn out the gate to this kind of thing? In the German SF I've read, everything goes back to some rando tripping over a crystal and accidentally blowing up half a mountain with hyper energy, thus setting millions of years of FTL-research into motion. The idea we could miss something so obvious is of course brutally absurd, but if a hypothetical hyperspace is connected to something hard to get to, like dark matter, why not?
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Dec 18, 2019 21:00
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Libluini posted:Anyway, to step back for a moment, I also read some science crap long ago claiming you could stabilize wormholes with exotic matter, so I would call stable wormholes highly unlikely, not Impossible. Yes, you can stabilize wormholes if you're a wizard.
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Dec 18, 2019 21:05
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Whenever you read "exotic matter" you can replace it with "something that doesn't exist" or better still "magic" and then read the sentence back and see how it fits then.
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Dec 18, 2019 21:12
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forgive the ignorance, but have wormholes ever actually been shown to exist in nature, or are they simply a mathematically consistent structure?
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Dec 18, 2019 21:24
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A big flaming stink posted:forgive the ignorance, but have wormholes ever actually been shown to exist in nature, or are they simply a mathematically consistent structure? the latter
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Dec 18, 2019 21:26
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Infinite Karma posted:Yes, to clarify what exotic matter usually means, it's stuff that has nonsensical properties like negative energy density/mass, imaginary (in the sense of square root of negative 1) magnitudes. If it existed, it would be hard to conceive of how it would work in the real world.
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Dec 18, 2019 21:39
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I think the closest we can get to "exotic" matter in the realm of current understanding would be quark stars, or perhaps nuclear pasta.
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Dec 18, 2019 21:43
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I think the closest we can get to "exotic" matter in the realm of current understanding would be quark stars, or perhaps nuclear pasta. Strange matter and any sort of degenerate matter would definitely count. What, if anything, we find from element 119 onward on the Periodic Table is going to be exotic.
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Dec 18, 2019 22:07
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What's the next hypothetical long half-life element in the island of stability? 126? It's still just going to be a superheavy chunk of metallic stuff.
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Dec 18, 2019 22:17
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LtStorm posted:Strange matter and any sort of degenerate matter would definitely count. I don't think anything on the periodic table can be called "exotic" in this context. Maybe i'm being too exclusionary. Infinite Karma posted:What's the next hypothetical long half-life element in the island of stability? 126? I'll believe the "island of stability" when I see it. for all we know there isn't anything stable beyond what we currently know.
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Dec 18, 2019 22:25
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LtStorm posted:Strange matter and any sort of degenerate matter would definitely count.
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Dec 18, 2019 22:39
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ashpanash posted:Well, I don't know. My GR is pretty basic, I have a basic understanding of the EFEs and the Schwarzchild metric. I'd have to run it by some people more knowledgeable than I am in the topic, but like I said, it's an interesting question. Kerr metric massively destabilizes inside the event horizon under any infall of matter, which is where the interesting stuff happens. From the outside, things look more or less hunky dory. However, you have the event horizon to protect you. Wormholes don't have event horizons by definition. Who the gently caress knows how they behave embedded in an actual universe.
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Dec 19, 2019 00:20
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:What's funny is when you have the same people banging on about exotic matter who in the same breath will insist that dark matter can't possibly be a real thing. Lol, you're so right. I didn't even make the connection but you are so right.
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Dec 19, 2019 00:22
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Libluini posted:But I really do sometimes wonder if we're just one tiny step away from finding something like hyperspace. Obligatory "check out Turtledove's The Road Not Taken"
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Dec 19, 2019 00:35
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cowboy
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=i-mStC-E1l0 Nicholas Funai - Using quantum energy teleportation to create exotic spacetimes Here’s an interesting lecture from the perimeter institute about using negative matter produced by a QET protocol ( though I think that entanglement harvesting/farming would be simpler) to create exotic space times, like wormholes and warp drives.
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Dec 19, 2019 10:31
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PawParole posted:https://youtube.com/watch?v=i-mStC-E1l0 That's a funai way of saying 'look at this complete mumbo jumbo' There's no such thing as negative matter. He's discussing negative energy densities in a very specific atomic configurations and how there may be a chance of some configurations being stable enough to experiment with. Nobody is creating exotic anything, and on no way is this related to wormholes or warp drives.
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Dec 19, 2019 16:12
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's a funai way of saying 'look at this complete mumbo jumbo' You are now forever forbidden to use the words "mumbo jumbo" ever again, Mr. Multiverse Black Holes Are a Real Topic
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Dec 19, 2019 16:25
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Libluini posted:You are now forever forbidden to use the words "mumbo jumbo" ever again, Mr. Multiverse Black Holes Are a Real Topic It was a joke Also never said that multiverse black holes were real, just discussed a possible method to test if hey are. 
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Dec 19, 2019 17:12
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's a funai way of saying
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Dec 19, 2019 20:44
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I once had a meandering thought that you could sort of make a lot of the stuff in "Star Wars" make at least some semblance of sense if the Force was just Electromagnetism and the trick was that the Star Wars galaxy and everything in it is actually microscopic. I mean, it doesn't make force ghosts make sense but moving things \ pushing things with the force, force lightning, destroying 'planets' that are in the same system and close to each other, 'hyperspace', maybe even lightsabers? There's no way it works practically but it amused me when thinking about it.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:50
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So wait a second. Is the reason why a lot of wormholes in fiction are opaque/covered is because otherwise it would violate causality? In The Expanse you can't see what's on the other side, you have to cross it; same for Stargate SG1.
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Dec 19, 2019 21:59
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Raenir Salazar posted:So wait a second.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:13
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The moviegoing public literally cannot handle the truth. Remember what a shitstorm there was about the black hole in Interstellar?
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Dec 19, 2019 22:18
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Kesper North posted:The moviegoing public literally cannot handle the truth. Remember what a shitstorm there was about the black hole in Interstellar? No? I remember it being held up as a very good scientific representation of a black hole in cinema, that's about it. Did someone complain about the black hole?
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Dec 19, 2019 22:23
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ashpanash posted:I once had a meandering thought that you could sort of make a lot of the stuff in "Star Wars" make at least some semblance of sense if the Force was just Electromagnetism and the trick was that the Star Wars galaxy and everything in it is actually microscopic. This is interesting as it deals so much with scale. If humans were say 2x larger in size height kcal req etc. Would we have industrialised 2x as fast or 2x as slow?
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Dec 19, 2019 22:30
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:No that's a production values thing. The author of the Expanse books IIRC might be knowledgeable enough to put that kind of detail and thought into it.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:No? I remember it being held up as a very good scientific representation of a black hole in cinema, that's about it. Did someone complain about the black hole? People complained about it not being cool enough, and they still gussied up the accretion disk.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:43
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Kesper North posted:People complained about it not being cool enough, and they still gussied up the accretion disk. Wh-what??  The Interstellar black hole is like one of the most gorgeous things I've ever seen in cinema. Jesus Christ, people.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:29
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DrSunshine posted:Wh-what?? Oh I agree! But people aren't always great at appreciating nature.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:01
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