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happyhippy posted:Am surprised they didn't go after him and Jared selling passports to China and/or access to Don within the first six months of office. They didn't have control of The House at the time, to be fair.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:30
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No Safe Word posted:even better if not appropriate I get the feeling those folks will take pride in having a Boomer mindset. I bet some are probably well aware, too.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:30
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Retro42 posted:Leaving Clinton aside, I’m fairly sure Trump signed off on hush money payments from the Oval in the Stormy Daniels thing. Yeah. Its obvious Trump has done all sorts of different horrible and impeachable things, but comparing it to a sexual assault of an intern by the sitting president is stupid because its also a horrendous crime. Cover ups and hush money is terrible garbage, but consensual sex work between an un-elected person and a sex worker (i'm assuming with Stormy Daniels) is in no way comparable to sexual assault by the sitting president on an intern.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:31
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happyhippy posted:Am surprised they didn't go after him and Jared selling passports to China and/or access to Don within the first six months of office.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:35
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vincentpricesboner posted:Yeah. Its obvious Trump has done all sorts of different horrible and impeachable things, but comparing it to a sexual assault of an intern by the sitting president is stupid because its also a horrendous crime. I think it’s also being mentioned up thread that he also lied about it under oath, which IMO, was a pretty garbage thing to do. It was probably motivated by partisanship in some way but it reflects poorly on him. He also was never removed from office for it, to be fair.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:42
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I've always enjoy asking people what the investigation into Bill Clinton was when it began.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:44
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bird cooch posted:I've always enjoy asking people what the investigation into Bill Clinton was when it began. Was it Whitewater or is that going back too far.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:45
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Angry_Ed posted:Was it Whitewater or is that going back too far. Right?
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Dec 19, 2019 23:20
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As a shock to no one, Former White House officials say they feared Putin influenced the president’s views on Ukraine and 2016 campaignquote:Almost from the moment he took office, President Trump seized on a theory that troubled his senior aides: Ukraine, he told them on many occasions, had tried to stop him from winning the White House. Quoted because gently caress WaPo's paywall.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:22
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https://twitter.com/jackmjenkins/status/1207782486975098880 anyone know if CT is anything? not sure how significant this is but think it's funny that it seems some are trying to have it both ways now that the Dems sort of hav control of the narrative, "Let’s grant this to the president: The Democrats have had it out for him from day one, and therefore nearly everything they do is under a cloud of partisan suspicion. This has led many to suspect not only motives but facts in these recent impeachment hearings. And, no, Mr. Trump did not have a serious opportunity to offer his side of the story in the House hearings on impeachment. But" but... "the facts in this instance are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral."
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Dec 19, 2019 23:27
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Strange Poon posted:
I love this argument, as if the President wasn't being allowed to defend himself when he personally told his staff to not comply to subpoenas and he himself would never ever show up to testify. The Dems would have LOVED it if Trump tried to defend himself.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:31
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Strange Poon posted:https://twitter.com/jackmjenkins/status/1207782486975098880 Christianity Today was founded by Billy Graham. It’s been around forever as a magazine and for a while as a website too. It’s probably the most popular evangelical publication/webzine. So yeah, it’s pretty shocking to see that...
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Dec 19, 2019 23:32
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vincentpricesboner posted:Yeah. Its obvious Trump has done all sorts of different horrible and impeachable things, but comparing it to a sexual assault of an intern by the sitting president is stupid because its also a horrendous crime. What Clinton did was absolutely wrong. But, both legally and ethically, there is a gradient of badness in terms of sexual abuse, and Clinton's affair with Lewinsky is broadly referred to as sexual misconduct. Lewinsky felt at the time that she was in a consensual relationship, although we know, and she has since admitted that she was not in a position to be giving full consent. But using the term sexual assault here makes no distinction between that and the president hypothetically forcing himself on an intern who has actively said no. Calling it sexual assault does a disservice to victims of more severe abuses. PS: According to Stormy Daniels, she had sex with Trump because he promised to use his showbiz connections to advance her career. For their second encounter she refused to have sex with him, because she realized his promises were worthless. Still, it was a directly comparable abuse of power to what Clinton did.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:35
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Wow, you can really see his hosed up Darth Vader scalp there 
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Dec 19, 2019 23:36
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I will say that the “Dems wanted to impeach since day one” argument has certainly been bolstered by foolish statements which took a cavalier attitude toward impeachment. Like “we’re going to impeach the motherfucker.” Impeachment is serious business.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:36
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That Christianity Today article isn’t loving around lolquote:To the many evangelicals who continue to support Mr. Trump in spite of his blackened moral record, we might say this: Remember who you are and whom you serve. Consider how your justification of Mr. Trump influences your witness to your Lord and Savior. Consider what an unbelieving world will say if you continue to brush off Mr. Trump’s immoral words and behavior in the cause of political expediency. If we don’t reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come? Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?
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Dec 19, 2019 23:37
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Ogmius815 posted:I will say that the “Dems wanted to impeach since day one” argument has certainly been bolstered by foolish statements which took a cavalier attitude toward impeachment. Like “we’re going to impeach the motherfucker.” Impeachment is serious business. Thanks for the decorum. jesus
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Dec 19, 2019 23:38
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Spun Dog posted:Thanks for the decorum. To his credit, Ogmius admirably held back his obvious glee while describing how a brown woman didn't act properly civilized.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:49
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Ehud posted:And just when we think it’s time to push all our chips to the center of the table, that’s when the whole game will come crashing down. It will crash down on the reputation of evangelical religion and on the world’s understanding of the gospel. And it will come crashing down on a nation of men and women whose welfare is also our concern. Tooooooo laaaaate
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Dec 19, 2019 23:50
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Ogmius815 posted:I will say that the “Dems wanted to impeach since day one” argument has certainly been bolstered by foolish statements which took a cavalier attitude toward impeachment. Like “we’re going to impeach the motherfucker.” Impeachment is serious business.  but impeachment is simply a thing that can be done, like every part of a government it's a tool, neither good nor evil. it's not that it is being used, it's who is using it for what.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:52
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lol at "presidents character was revealed for what it was." none of the massive red flags up until this point brought his character into question????
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Dec 19, 2019 23:53
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I said come in! posted:lol at "presidents character was revealed for what it was." none of the massive red flags up until this point brought his character into question???? They got their lifetime judiciary brought to you by the Federalist Society, so they are cool with taking off the mask now.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:57
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I think the idea here is "trump should quit while the Republicans are ahead". They got their majority on the supreme court, they got their judges. Trump is liable to pull the whole thing down the longer he is in office. Even if the Senate let him off impeachment tomorrow the other investigations arent going to stop. The court cases are still pending. If he quits or is removed now, they may be able to hang onto what theyve already got; much further and public pressure to undo all the fuckery/unpacking the courts becomes much more likely.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:11
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 Wow. Well that was refreshing to read. I'm not sure how much good it will do but at least it'll probably reach the people who have their heads in the sand rather than face what they've unleashed. I don't know. I hope it wakes some people up but if admitting to repeated sexual assaults on camera doesn't move the needle then I don't know what will.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:26
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Djarum posted:Well you can blame all of this on the school systems in the US not teaching government, ethics or even basic finance anymore. My parents who were in school in the late 70s got taught all of this and more. Compare that to myself and my significant other, we got none of the above. Hell, I still don't entirely understand how to write a check for example. My nieces who are in high school right now have even less outside of basic "core" English/Math and they go to the best school in their area. Doesn't this entirely depend on the state? I went to school in the late 90s and learned all of this.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:29
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Ehud posted:Christianity Today was founded by Billy Graham. It’s been around forever as a magazine and for a while as a website too. EDIT: Thinking about it, how loving sick is it that we're technically fighting to put Mike Pence INTO the office of President? Mike Goddamn Pence, a man whose most humanizing elements are the jokes about him loving horses and calling his wife "Mother." If you gave me a button right now that would instantly remove Trump as president, knowing that it installs Mike Pence, I don't think I could bring myself to push it. Robot Hobo fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 00:30
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Meatball posted:I think the idea here is "trump should quit while the Republicans are ahead". They got their majority on the supreme court, they got their judges. Trump is liable to pull the whole thing down the longer he is in office. Even if the Senate let him off impeachment tomorrow the other investigations arent going to stop. The court cases are still pending. I could see Republicans taking the cue from this and following suit with "Trump hosed up and should be removed but the Dems were not right and they tried to remove him without due process." It lets them stay the victim while having justification for abusing power and gives them an out on Trump. I'm not going to get my hopes up though and we'll see if they fall back in line, but who knows, I wasn't even sure he'd ever get impeached yet here we are.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:33
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Scott Forstall posted:They got their lifetime judiciary brought to you by the Federalist Society, so they are cool with taking off the mask now. A coworker straight up admitted this to me recently. He was being lambasted by multiple people, mostly apolitical centrist types, about how big a piece of poo poo Trump is and the chud in question literally threw his hands up and said he didn't care because they got 2 justices out of him. The next day he started to say something to me about AOC and I told him I don't need to talk politics with him anymore since he admitted he doesn't care about anything other than winning. He looked genuinely taken aback but he hasn't said poo poo since then (it's been maybe 3 weeks or so). These pieces of poo poo are painting themselves into corners rhetorically and socially. It's amazing to see it play out in real time.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:40
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Midgetskydiver posted:A coworker straight up admitted this to me recently. He was being lambasted by multiple people, mostly apolitical centrist types, about how big a piece of poo poo Trump is and the chud in question literally threw his hands up and said he didn't care because they got 2 justices out of him. The next day he started to say something to me about AOC and I told him I don't need to talk politics with him anymore since he admitted he doesn't care about anything other than winning. He looked genuinely taken aback but he hasn't said poo poo since then (it's been maybe 3 weeks or so). I'm thinking we see at least one more scam dating app for conservative men show up before the election's done, and maybe two or three after if Trump loses.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:47
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InsertPotPun posted:it's no more serious business than any other function of the government. it's simply a process to go through to correct an error. I'm tired of the "impeachment is huge!!" talking point because it feeds into the narrative that we should be 1,000% sure before we even think to plan to impeach. "elected official does wrong, elected official has to go". it's pretty cut and dry and simple. it should be used more often and is only being abused by the GOP...who keep saying it's a sacred and momentous thing. so that only they have the wisdom to wield it. which they will. and they will always use it correctly while their opponents are stinky jerks who abuse things for revenge This is wrong. Impeachment isn’t an appropriate remedy whenever a president is using his power in ways that the opposition wishes he wouldn’t. If it were, every president would be impeached whenever the opposing party controlled the House. For example, Trump’s border policies are atrocious. Family separation is atrocious. But such policies are, arguably, within the legitimate scope of the president’s authority. When the Courts have told Trump something he was doing on the border was not actually within the scope of his authority, he’s obeyed the court’s orders. Impeachment needs to be about something more than that. Something that is categorically outside the scope of what a president is permitted to do in our constitutional system. For example, because the President is not above the law, it’s impeachable for the president to commit crimes. Here, we have a president who courted outside intervention in his own election and clearly subordinated US security interests to his own personal political interests. When Congress tried to investigate, Trump flat out told Congress they had no business overseeing him. I argue those things are beyond the bounds of any President’s discretion. They represent serious offenses against the constitutional order itself. Therefore, I think the President’s conduct was impeachable. But when Tlaib said what she said, she didn’t know any of that. She just wanted to fire up a crowd at an event. She didn’t like the president, so she said he should be impeached. That was irresponsible. It was a foolish thing to say. That doesn’t mean Tlaib is a fool, or even that she’s a bad rep. But she said something foolish. The obvious consequence is that now that impeachment has happened, it looks like it was planned all along. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 01:02
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Ogmius815 posted:This is wrong. Impeachment isn’t an appropriate remedy whenever a president is using his power in ways that the opposition wishes he wouldn’t. bye.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:05
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Ogmius815 posted:This is wrong. Impeachment isn’t an appropriate remedy whenever a president is using his power in ways that the opposition wishes he wouldn’t. If it were, every president would be impeached whenever the opposing party controlled the House. loving lol. Thanks for the republican framing. Spoiler alert - They are always going to find a reason for it to be "illegitimate"
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Dec 20, 2019 01:08
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Ogmius815 posted:For example, Trump’s border policies are atrocious. Family separation is atrocious. High crimes and misdemeanors includes crimes against humanity, just so you know.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:12
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Robot Hobo posted:Removing Trump puts Pence into office, a religious zealot so off-putting to the general public that he would never get that job any other way aside from succeeding a removed or dead Trump. They've gotten everything they could ever actually want from Trump already, and now they're signalling that they're ready to discard him while there's an opportunity for a new guy to get a year to do a new and different kind of harm to the country. That feels less shocking, and more inevitable. Pence might be more dangerous to have in office for the long run but he has nowhere close to the stranglehold that Trump has on his base, replacing cheeto Mussolini with horse boy would pretty much guarantee a 2020 loss no matter how many things he'd do right from a Republican's viewpoint. The real reason is nobody wants to be the first party with a successfully removed president from office, simple as that. It would drive every conservative up the wall till they climb in the casket, they're going for broke here.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:14
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Rosalie_A posted:High crimes and misdemeanors includes crimes against humanity, just so you know. Yeah, personally, I’d put stealing children from their parents and leaving them to die of preventable diseases in cages at least on par with a misdemeanor offense.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:26
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Lead out in cuffs posted:What Clinton did was absolutely wrong. But, both legally and ethically, there is a gradient of badness in terms of sexual abuse, and Clinton's affair with Lewinsky is broadly referred to as sexual misconduct. Lewinsky felt at the time that she was in a consensual relationship, although we know, and she has since admitted that she was not in a position to be giving full consent. But using the term sexual assault here makes no distinction between that and the president hypothetically forcing himself on an intern who has actively said no. Calling it sexual assault does a disservice to victims of more severe abuses. As someone who is the victim of sexual assault (by an much older man, as well), I appreciate you trying to make some kind of point about the differences between different types of sexual offences. But let me be absolutely clear, Lewinsky was in no way able to consent, and sex without consent is sexual assault, every time it happens. This wasn't two thirty or forty somethings, working in the same office, with similar experience or pay, having a consensual affair. This wasn't even the manager of a sprint store having creepy sex with a new employee. This was literally the most powerful man in the world having sex with an impressionable, young intern. Sex without consent is sexual assault. That is the right term. "Sexual Assault" doesn't always mean forcible rape. Calling sex without consent sexual assault doesn't do a disservice to anyone. This offence was in fact a severe abuse. There are even worse crimes in the world, but Clinton wasn't just some guy goofing around in the office. It wasn't a minor offence in any way.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:28
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eviltastic posted:Yeah, personally, I’d put stealing children from their parents and leaving them to die of preventable diseases in cages at least on par with a misdemeanor offense. You’re looking at it the wrong way though. It isn’t like what makes something impeachable is that it’s sufficient bad, and family separation is less impeachable because it ranks lower on the “badness scale” than the Ukraine Affair. Impeachment is for a particular kind of bad thing.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:34
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Ogmius815 posted:You’re looking at it the wrong way though. It isn’t like what makes something impeachable is that it’s sufficient bad, and family separation is less impeachable because it ranks lower on the “badness scale” than the Ukraine Affair. Impeachment is for a particular kind of bad thing. your stance on impeaching him at all, fifteen seconds before Pelosi told you actually now was good, was "silence, you foolish children, don't you see impeachment is just what Trump wants?" find a way of looking at it other than "whatever my betters tell me to believe, I believe."
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Dec 20, 2019 01:40
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vincentpricesboner posted:As someone who is the victim of sexual assault (by an much older man, as well), I appreciate you trying to make some kind of point about the differences between different types of sexual offences. But let me be absolutely clear, Lewinsky was in no way able to consent, and sex without consent is sexual assault, every time it happens. This wasn't two thirty or forty somethings, working in the same office, with similar experience or pay, having a consensual affair. This wasn't even the manager of a sprint store having creepy sex with a new employee. This was literally the most powerful man in the world having sex with an impressionable, young intern. Correct, I saw this happening in corporations in the 1980s and it was abusive ... Note it wasn't even this that got Clinton impeached. It was perjury during a civil trial. As to Trump, he broke the law in regard to soliciting something of value for his campaign from a foreign power.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:44
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:your stance on impeaching him at all, fifteen seconds before Pelosi told you actually now was good, was "silence, you foolish children, don't you see impeachment is just what Trump wants?" I changed my mind about impeachment when the facts of the Ukraine Affair became clear. That’s what most people do, change their positions and beliefs in response to the facts.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:44
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