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Switzerland posted:As an aside, is "localist" some CCP talking point they desperately want to make happen? CLB's inside joke that s/he uses over and over again, and then chortles to themselves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Localist_groups_(Hong_Kong)
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Dec 19, 2019 04:38
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Kassad posted:I'm less interested in why China decided to industrialize than in how it actually pulled it off. It didn't force capitalists in the rest of the world to go along at gunpoint. It's completely whitewashing our own responsibility in the problem to go "China is a big polluter and bad" as if they weren't polluting to make poo poo to sell abroad. Say instead of China the outsourced production went to a bunch of countries in Southeast-Asia or Africa. Would it have made a difference in terms of emission? I dunno. State directed industrial policies. Yeah it's a dirty world in English.
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Dec 19, 2019 06:42
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Darkest Auer posted:It shouldn't come as a surprise that all these tankies have never been to China and live in the US To be fair, I think CAPS LOCK BROKEN has actually visited his relatives in China.
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Dec 19, 2019 07:51
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I did not realize spitting on the street was such a big thing for Hong Kong peeps, but given the density of the city I can see why this would be a problem.
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Dec 19, 2019 09:47
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Zombiepop posted:I did not realize spitting on the street was such a big thing for Hong Kong peeps, but given the density of the city I can see why this would be a problem. It's a non-issue and just a excuse Hong Kongers to feel superior to the mainlanders.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:21
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Spitting everywhere is a non-issue if you've never been in the mainland, yes. But granted, it's mostly the olds doing the worst of it.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:55
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Western media got excited when there was a protest against a crematorium in Shenzhen but dialed it down immediately when the authorities caved and stopped its construction. It doesn't play into the narrative that the CCP runs the country like a bunch of cackling supervillians when they are responsive to protest movements that don't involve collaborating with foreign powers to overthrow the current regime. Can't imagine why there is continual coverage over events that are still happening while things that happen and then get resolved don't continue to make headlines long after the fact.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:56
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Zombiepop posted:I did not realize spitting on the street was such a big thing for Hong Kong peeps, but given the density of the city I can see why this would be a problem. Spitting is intensely cultural. Throughout history there have been times and places where spitting just in somebody's vicinity was a legit justification for violence.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:00
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SlothfulCobra posted:Can't imagine why there is continual coverage over events that are still happening while things that happen and then get resolved don't continue to make headlines long after the fact. Listen, reporting on a thing is only credible if everything else ever is being reported simultaneously.
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Dec 19, 2019 20:44
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whatever7 posted:State directed industrial policies. Yeah it's a dirty world in English. I can scarcely imagine why that could be! I mean, it certainly doesn't have anything to do with mountains of useless pig iron (because INDUSTRY!), or taking 30 years to put multiple aircraft designs into mass production when they started with nearly full sets of manufacturing documents and technical assistance, or other similarly insane things that are comically well documented... On a mostly unrelated note, the CCP surely must realize at some level that most of the world looks at Macao and just sees gangsters, prostitution, and casinos, right? I mean, I know they huff their own farts to the nth degree, but there must be someone left to tell them what reality is.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:46
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trying to pretend that chinese industrial policy has been a failure seems a little, uh, desperate
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Dec 20, 2019 01:49
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:On a mostly unrelated note, the CCP surely must realize at some level that most of the world looks at Macao and just sees gangsters, prostitution, and casinos, right? I mean, I know they huff their own farts to the nth degree, but there must be someone left to tell them what reality is. Most of the world can't find macau on the map, sinophobic westerners with an axe to grind, on the other hand... V. Illych L. posted:trying to pretend that chinese industrial policy has been a failure seems a little, uh, desperate It's the usual framing you get from the west where the enemy is both inscrutably too strong and too weak at the same time.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:49
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:It's the usual framing you get from the west where the enemy is both inscrutably too strong and too weak at the same time. Do you have any thoughts on similar narratives made by Chinese media/education?
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Dec 20, 2019 02:02
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:On a mostly unrelated note, the CCP surely must realize at some level that most of the world looks at Macao and just sees gangsters, prostitution, and casinos, right? I mean, I know they huff their own farts to the nth degree, but there must be someone left to tell them what reality is. Most of the world only see the casinos, but the prostitution is pretty blatant. I was in Macau during Feb for a DOTA event and on the new Cotai strip there were lots of them outside the big hotels, and even as my friends and I were going to dinner, some old dude and a young girl made their way into our elevator with old aunties and went off in different directions when we got to the ground floor. There was a crackdown on the infamous Grand Lisboa 'racetrack' a few years back but it obviously didn't really do anything. Macanese gangsters were bad in the 90s with public assassinations and bombings, but aren't much in the public eye these days, they mostly keep to themselves and operate casino VIP junkets.
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Dec 20, 2019 02:39
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Being Portuguese, Macau history is quite different to HK, Macau had quite the issues with gangs running things, but macau is now basically a giant casino resort
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Dec 20, 2019 02:54
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Celexi posted:Being Portuguese, Macau history is quite different to HK, Macau had quite the issues with gangs running things, but macau is now basically a giant casino resort Hey, they also have a nice museum and some Catholic stuff. These still exist to provide alibis. Macau is a land of many contrasts.
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Dec 20, 2019 04:40
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:These are all daily occurrences in Chicago, I don't see daily acts of contrition by people who live here attacking other Chicagoans with taking a dump on the blue line and peeing all over the pedway. Walk into a bar and insinuate that Chicagoans are uncouth and enjoy public defecation and see where that gets you. Except most people in China wouldn’t be offended by a factual description: in my experience countryside people would say that letting kids pee or crap wherever is normal healthy behaviour, that’s good for the children and shake their heads about uptight city dwellers who make a fuss about it, and well-bred urbanites would say it’s a problem that all these uncouth peasants don’t know how to behave. The broader point that people in HK talk about mainlanders in a really racist way is correct though. It’s not a transitive property of mainland Chinese people to be first generation immigrants from the countryside. I’m briefly back in HK now and just catching up with friends, the hostility has really solidified: mainland buddies have all shared stories about people being dicks to them when they speak mandarin, and as usual, the worst treatment is reserved for women.
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Dec 20, 2019 05:09
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Hong Kongers disliking mainlanders has little to nothing to do with race and more to do with regionalism. It's roughly equivalent to Californians and New Yorkers being prejudiced towards anyone with a southern accent and vice versa
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Dec 20, 2019 05:14
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2019 05:45
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sincx posted:It's not "regionalism." It's classism. "We don't like X group because they are from Y and not Z" is about as regional as you can get.
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Dec 20, 2019 05:50
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I have yet to see mobs of new yorkers attack californians on sight. The animus is clearly disproportional because hong kongers consider themselves higher up on the racial hierarchy compared to mainlanders and their southeast asian hired help.
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Dec 20, 2019 06:00
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Beefeater1980 posted:Except most people in China wouldn’t be offended by a factual description: in my experience countryside people would say that letting kids pee or crap wherever is normal healthy behaviour, that’s good for the children and shake their heads about uptight city dwellers who make a fuss about it, and well-bred urbanites would say it’s a problem that all these uncouth peasants don’t know how to behave. Africans and Indians making GBS threads in rivers and outside etc has major ecological rammifications. But its encouraged aka a provincial govermor taking a poo poo with his constituents as a form of canvassing. I mean this sounds goofy but it really happens.
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Dec 20, 2019 06:16
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I have yet to see mobs of new yorkers attack californians on sight. The animus is clearly disproportional because hong kongers consider themselves higher up on the racial hierarchy compared to mainlanders and their southeast asian hired help. For one, the original point was not about New Yorkers attacking Californians. That would indeed be strange. But go ahead and bring a heavy southern accent to New England and see how people there treat you. Second, I’ve never been to Hong Kong, so I don’t have much to add about the specific situation there. My intuition is that the there is a heavy element of discrimination in the protests, but that the CCP has also shaped a really bad image of itself regarding human rights and the rule of law and I’m sympathetic to people there wanting autonomy from a nakedly corrupt, authoritarian government. But talking about China in general, regional discrimination and regional identity is a far more powerful force there than in the US. People in Shanghai may not attack people from Henan on sight, but the air of superiority they put on as soon as they hear a Henan accent is plain to see. In many areas of rural China, it’s a big deal for someone to marry a person from the next county, let alone from another province. And coming from the same place opens doors in business much, much faster than it would in the US. There are significant cultural differences in regional identity and the way people interact with perceived outsiders between the US and China, so I don’t think drawing direct analogies, like you’re doing here, is very helpful. I don’t think the pattern of regional discrimination that is common all across China can explain all the discrimination mainlanders face in Hong Kong, but I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that the discrimination has part of its origin in that pattern.
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Dec 20, 2019 07:05
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A smaller form of nationalism.
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Dec 20, 2019 07:35
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sincx posted:It's not "regionalism." It's classism. It’s both. Both regionalism and classism are powerful forces, and the HK-mainland example is simply one of the most self-evident cases. That being said, HK’s complaints over its steady loss of independent media, concerns about the willingness of their government to address their grievances, and general fears of being wholly absorbed by the PRC can still be valid even if many of the protestors are disdainful towards mainlanders for much more superficial reasons.
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Dec 20, 2019 07:37
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Second, I’ve never been to Hong Kong, so I don’t have much to add about the specific situation there. Actually this makes you equal in authority to comment on the situation there as CAPS LOCK BROKEN has liberally done so in this and many of the other China threads
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Dec 20, 2019 09:31
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Second, I’ve never been to Hong Kong, so I don’t have much to add about the specific situation there. My intuition is that the there is a heavy element of discrimination in the protests, but that the CCP has also shaped a really bad image of itself regarding human rights and the rule of law and I’m sympathetic to people there wanting autonomy from a nakedly corrupt, authoritarian government. Heithinn Grasida posted:Second, I’ve never been to Hong Kong, so I don’t have much to add about the specific situation there.
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Dec 20, 2019 10:56
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The Great Autismo! posted:...dude *awkwardly looks around* Is there some specific point in my post that you’re disagreeing with? I think it’s pretty fair to say there’s an aspect of localism to the protests that might have something to do with patterns of regional discrimination in China in general and that it’s overly reductive to directly compare regional discrimination in the US with that in China. I admit that I could be wrong. If you don’t agree with me, what, specifically, do you not agree with and why?
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Dec 20, 2019 15:10
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Is there some specific point in my post that you’re disagreeing with? I think it’s pretty fair to say there’s an aspect of localism to the protests that might have something to do with patterns of regional discrimination in China in general and that it’s overly reductive to directly compare regional discrimination in the US with that in China. I admit that I could be wrong. If you don’t agree with me, what, specifically, do you not agree with and why? Hong Kong localists take their cues from the UK and US in terms of hating people on a racial basis. HK is notorious for mistreating it’s south and southeast Asian population. During the riots the protestors even threatened south Asians by distributing flyers around their neighborhoods they wouldn’t be attacked without reason.
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Dec 20, 2019 15:42
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It's interesting how you have all of this regional or ethnic discrimination in former socialist/soviet nations but their earliest years were ruled by ethnic minorities or came from the boonies. Mao was from Hunan and had iirc, a really thick country bumpkin accent; Stalin and Beria were Georgian, etc.
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Dec 20, 2019 15:53
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Hey guys did you know regionalism came from the West? Literally nobody thought negative things about someone from another region until the British/American empires.
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Dec 20, 2019 16:37
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And you can't be classist against the mainland because they have a classless society, Mao abolished it you see. No sir, everyone is the same.
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Dec 20, 2019 17:54
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Spectral_beard posted:And you can't be classist against the mainland because they have a classless society, Mao abolished it you see. No sir, everyone is the same. Given that two of the stars on the flag represents the “petit and national bourgeois” I don’t think mao ever made that claim
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Dec 20, 2019 18:07
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Hong Kong localists take their cues from the UK and US in terms of hating people on a racial basis. HK is notorious for mistreating it’s south and southeast Asian population. During the riots the protestors even threatened south Asians by distributing flyers around their neighborhoods they wouldn’t be attacked without reason. Mainland Chinese are taking direct cues from Western leader Adolf Hitler when it comes to genociding undesirable ethnicities. So HK and mainland actually have a lot in common, wouldn't you think?
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Dec 20, 2019 19:06
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On the other hand, China hates Muslims, India hates Muslims, the US hates Muslims, most of Europe hates Muslism and Muslism hate Muslisms so we are hosed anyway
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Dec 20, 2019 19:12
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Hong Kong localists take their cues from the UK and US in terms of hating people on a racial basis. HK is notorious for mistreating it’s south and southeast Asian population. During the riots the protestors even threatened south Asians by distributing flyers around their neighborhoods they wouldn’t be attacked without reason. By now, the Nazis had perfected the art of stealing neighboring territory. They would start by encouraging political unrest inside the area. At the same time, they would wage a propaganda campaign citing real or imagined wrongs committed against local Germans. When neighboring political leaders finally came to see to Hitler to resolve the ongoing crisis, they would be offered help in the form of a German Army occupation to "restore order."
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Dec 20, 2019 20:18
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That example doesn't really work here; it isn't like the world recognized Austria as being a part of Germany prior to Anchluss. The Rhineland being militarized is slightly more analogous but the Rhinelanders also overwhelmingly supported it, and the PRC already has a garrison there.
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Dec 20, 2019 20:25
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caps on caps on caps posted:On the other hand, China hates Muslims, India hates Muslims, the US hates Muslims, most of Europe hates Muslism and Muslism hate Muslisms so we are hosed anyway Turns out fairy tales are a terrible basis for a pan-ethnic nation. Communism with Chinese characteristics on the other hand...
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Dec 21, 2019 01:41
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 I saw this guy in buenos aires
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Dec 21, 2019 08:46
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Hong Kong localists take their cues from the UK and US in terms of hating people on a racial basis. HK is notorious for mistreating it’s south and southeast Asian population. During the riots the protestors even threatened south Asians by distributing flyers around their neighborhoods they wouldn’t be attacked without reason. Is there any actual evidence that members of the independence movement are any more xenophobic towards south or southeast Asians than the general HK population?
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Dec 21, 2019 23:16
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