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Solaris 2.0 posted:He's been asked before, specifically I think he was asked what his favorite verse is. His response was he loved the whole bible, all of it, and then proceeded to word-salad. two corinthians.
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Dec 20, 2019 17:51
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So over Christmas this year when a good many of us will be around conservative family members, how do we legitimately talk about this? I'm seriously asking. Undoubtedly the chuds are going to be dismissive of the impeachment process whole hog and parrot stuff like "well Trump is good and should stay in office because the economy is doing great!" and other talking points like that. How do you deal with that? Like, conservatives will undoubtedly say that Trump has done "a lot of good" for the country and things like that. What are these things to which they will refer and what is the correct response? Has Trump actually done anything positive for the country since he's been in office? It's funny to say stuff like "lol he's a moron of course not" which whether true or not, won't help when talking to conservatives because then it just descends into name calling and a lot of "I can't believe you're so loving dumb" coming from both sides. Basically, what are the things conservatives will say Trump has accomplished for the good of the country? For example when I ask somebody I knew to name something Trump has done, he responded with "the de-nuclearisation of North Korea, for one" which has of course proven to be false, but that's the kind of stuff I'm asking for. Specific bullet point style things people will list off and how to respond to those things. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 17:56
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Don’t engage with them, IMO. You won’t change minds and it’ll only make you feel worse.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:01
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:President George W Bush, famously not bad for inhabitants of the middle east gently caress off, it's not a contest
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Dec 20, 2019 18:05
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GreatGreen posted:So over Christmas this year when a good many of us will be around conservative family members, how do we legitimately talk about this? I'm seriously asking. Undoubtedly the chuds are going to be dismissive of the impeachment process whole hog and parrot stuff like "well Trump is good and should stay in office because the economy is doing great!" and other talking points like that. How do you deal with that? We have a "no politics during holiday gatherings" rule, but it hasn't stopped some of my wife's family to make a mention of it. If it gets brought up, all I'm going to say is, "well, Trump has been impeached, it's up the politicians for a fair process" and leave it at that. I've got some ammo on my side about multiple republican politicians doing really shady and lovely stuff if it gets pressed, and I've always brought up how Reagan hosed things up to a lot of surprise. Your best bet is to just laugh and walk away while you pound another glass of hard alcohol.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:08
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GreatGreen posted:So over Christmas this year when a good many of us will be around conservative family members, how do we legitimately talk about this? I'm seriously asking. Undoubtedly the chuds are going to be dismissive of the impeachment process whole hog and parrot stuff like "well Trump is good and should stay in office because the economy is doing great!" and other talking points like that. How do you deal with that? i don't think this is the place to talk about how to rebut conservative messaging about trump's accomplishments. but i would suggest that with regards to impeachment, stick to the facts and don't think you can convince anyone of anything, and maybe you'll hate your interactions with family about it a little less. the question is about accountability and corruption, the less you attempt to argue about facts unrelated to impeachment the better off you'll be. if abraham lincoln or fdr or barack obama did the same thing, it would still be correct to impeach them for it regardless of their other accomplishments eke out fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 18:09
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GreatGreen posted:So over Christmas this year when a good many of us will be around conservative family members, how do we legitimately talk about this? I'm seriously asking. Undoubtedly the chuds are going to be dismissive of the impeachment process whole hog and parrot stuff like "well Trump is good and should stay in office because the economy is doing great!" and other talking points like that. How do you deal with that? If you want to engage, your goals should be "be specific, be factual, be persistent". Also understand your goal isn't to convince them to agree with you, it's to convince them people don't believe their poo poo and to give them pushback, as well as swaying those in the audience without appearing like an rear end. You'll have to ask them for specifics, because their whole process is based on what they feel to be true. When they make a specific claim, look it up (preferably using Fox News-like sources if you can) and show they are wrong. They will try to weasel away, change the subject, or what-about to move to different ground, so be aware and be ready and steer the topic back. Even announce that's what you're doing: "that's a different topic, we can talk about Y later but right now we're discussing X". Ask them to consider cases where their enemies and their "team" had switched places, would they feel the same way? If not, maybe that's a sign they aren't approaching the situation consistently or objectively. You can also tell them not to answer, just consider it quietly; some people can't let themselves back down publicly, but letting them keep quiet can prevent them from cementing their views. The Socratic method can be an effective way to approach it, but it requires a certain mentality and the ability to do appeals to emotion without letting yourself get swept up in emotion. "What good things has Trump done, specifically?" If they say the economy, show them https://www.whendidtrump.com (goon made!) and ask them to pick out when Trump became president. Other topics you'll have to be educated and prepared about.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:16
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BigglesSWE posted:This is like when they speculated that because Obama stumbled over a few words during his inauguration, he didn’t truly become a President. we've known they were disingenuous fuckos for a long time but keep pretending otherwise.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:24
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Midgetskydiver posted:This is the culmination of two things in my mind: As somewhat of an evangelical, it's #1. There's a whole right-wing media universe that's vaguely Christian themed, and all the Trump stuff is breaking them.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:25
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cr0y posted:Shrodingers impeachment Get the gently caress out of my box.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:57
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InsertPotPun posted:the guy swearing him in hosed up some words and obama said the correct ones. they then, later on in the hall, did it all over again with the correct words just to prevent the gop from making it an issue. Also I’m pretty sure the inauguration is just for show, and the actual process of changing president takes place behind closed doors, to ensure that there’s a clear chain of command in case of assassination shenanigans. I might be wrong tho.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:57
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InsertPotPun posted:the guy swearing him in hosed up some words and obama said the correct ones. they then, later on in the hall, did it all over again with the correct words just to prevent the gop from making it an issue. Wait, that was a real thing? That was on an episode of Veep, Selina mispronounced something during her swearing-in and they wanted her to cancel her public appearances and go back to DC to redo it. I thought it was a joke about the kind of rear end in a top hat behavior you get in politics. That show more than any really suffered from the Trump presidency. I remember someone in TVIV asking about it, saying they thought it was going to be funnier but it seems like just regular political storylines with some jokes here and there. And my response was that yeah, when it came out, it WAS really funny to see this White House full of inept staffers constantly loving things up and creating scandals for themselves, but over the last few years that's become the new normal, so now this comedy show just seems like another day in DC.
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Dec 20, 2019 19:05
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worth reading https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1208102828251717632
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Dec 20, 2019 20:20
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quote:“It was definitely the right thing to do knowing you were sending it to what looked like ... an unfair trial,” said Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.V.). “So if she can help us get a fair trial that’s what we want to do.” holy crap even machin is on board
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Dec 20, 2019 20:22
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eke out posted:holy crap even machin is on board machin is a moron but he is smart enough to know the GOP are in a pretty bad place no matter what they do.
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Dec 20, 2019 20:25
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chaos reigns
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Dec 20, 2019 20:33
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Dapper_Swindler posted:machin is a moron but he is smart enough to know the GOP are in a pretty bad place no matter what they do. yeah there being an actual fair-seeming trial is good for manchin, since he's going to want to vote to acquit and needs cover to do it
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Dec 20, 2019 20:35
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If any of my family members were Trump supporters I'd just tell them to gently caress off
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Dec 20, 2019 20:38
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actionjackson posted:If any of my family members were Trump supporters I'd just tell them to gently caress off Sunday I’m heading to the Midwest to visit family for the holidays. One is a staffer for one of the more Chud-like congresspeople. It’s gonna be a very...interesting trip.
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Dec 20, 2019 20:47
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I basically had to tell my parents that if they wanted a relationship with me at this point, politics will never be discussed ever again. What was the line in the sand was when I asked my parents "If I acted like Trump in my personal life, politics aside, would you be proud of my behavior?" and to be consistent with their support of Trump they said "Yes." After that I made it clear: Challenge me on politics or have me in your life, what do you want? Thankfully they stopped.
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Dec 20, 2019 20:48
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Foranzan posted:I basically had to tell my parents that if they wanted a relationship with me at this point, politics will never be discussed ever again. I mean it'd become second nature after some practice, and the risk there of course is that you'd just start naturally acting like that all the time, but with the way things are going you might be better off in that case, anyway.
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Dec 20, 2019 21:00
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Sort of impeachment-related, on the topic of executive privilege, if Mulvany leaves and congress drags him in, I assume trump can claim executive privilege to prevent him from talking. What happens after trump is gone, though? Could congress ask the same question and the future potus undo the previous claim of privilege?
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Dec 20, 2019 21:23
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DarkHorse posted:But then isn't there a thousand years of peace as Jesus reigns on earth Unless you're Catholic, in which case you believe we are presently in that millennium, and that it's not a literal thousand-year period. On the bright side, we're not anticipating seven straight years of the worst things possible; on the other hand this being the thousand years of peace feels like setting the bar a little low sometimes. GreatGreen posted:Like, conservatives will undoubtedly say that Trump has done "a lot of good" for the country and things like that. What are these things to which they will refer and what is the correct response? Has Trump actually done anything positive for the country since he's been in office? It's funny to say stuff like "lol he's a moron of course not" which whether true or not, won't help when talking to conservatives because then it just descends into name calling and a lot of "I can't believe you're so loving dumb" coming from both sides. Honestly, the best way to handle this is "I haven't heard anything about that. Isn't the cabbage-and-noodles great this year?" and "That doesn't match what I heard, but let's drop it for now. Are you planning on seeing (movie you think they might go see)?" You aren't going to convince them, and some of the things they'll see as "a lot of good" did happen but you'll think they're bad things ("not taking so many dangerous refugees" or "replacing liberal judges").
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Dec 20, 2019 21:24
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:You should have just started acting like Trump around them. Bronze the gently caress out of your skin, do some bizarre poo poo with your hair that might actually involve exotic physics, make your mouth look like a flaccid rear end in a top hat all the time and your eyes look like your mouth, just jabber on and on about nonsense and tell obvious lies about how great you are, try to cultivate what we all assume is just the worst BO humanly possible and lord it over them, take your parents out to dinner and complain about how they're not paying enough of the bill then act really gracious when they pay a bit more and then immediately start complaining about the bill again, insist that your cousin that they like can't visit until we figure out what the hell is going on, etc etc. I've always stopped short of trying to pull off a stunt like this precisely because I fear becoming the mask.
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Dec 20, 2019 21:27
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InsertPotPun posted:the guy swearing him in hosed up some words and obama said the correct ones. they then, later on in the hall, did it all over again with the correct words just to prevent the gop from making it an issue.
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Dec 20, 2019 21:28
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Zachack posted:Sort of impeachment-related, on the topic of executive privilege, if Mulvany leaves and congress drags him in, I assume trump can claim executive privilege to prevent him from talking. What happens after trump is gone, though? Could congress ask the same question and the future potus undo the previous claim of privilege? i believe the holder of the presidential communications privilege is not "any president" but "this particular president" the problem with people like mulvaney asserting it is that only then do you go to court and work out what's privileged and what isn't, and we don't remotely have enough time right now. your hypothetical down the line in a future presidency wouldn't really have that problem, so it's probably not really an issue.
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Dec 20, 2019 21:39
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Hearing about people suffering with MAGA parents makes me really, really grateful that my parents absolutely loving hated him all along. 
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Dec 20, 2019 21:44
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Yeah, I'm really glad my boomer parents are only getting more progressive as they get older.
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Dec 20, 2019 21:53
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eke out posted:i believe the holder of the presidential communications privilege is not "any president" but "this particular president" It's more of a question about prosecuting various admin people for crimes. Like, assuming Mulvany is full of info, making him expose the trump kids crimes. Or really going after guiliani.
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Dec 20, 2019 21:58
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Why do we have any belief that any Trump official won’t lie their rear end off under oath, these subhumans will do anything, they have zero shame
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Dec 20, 2019 21:59
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Zachack posted:It's more of a question about prosecuting various admin people for crimes. Like, assuming Mulvany is full of info, making him expose the trump kids crimes. Or really going after guiliani. my point stands. piercing executive privilege isn't that hard when you have enough time, and a future administration that needs to do it to prosecute crimes will totally be able to.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:08
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GreatGreen posted:So over Christmas this year when a good many of us will be around conservative family members, Why will you be around them? This is a general question to anyone else associating with Trump family members, too. I am not an American and there is really nothing equivalent in my country, even our craziest actually electable parties are like 1% as hosed up as Trump and the GOP. Being a Trump supporter is being a member of an insane hateful nihilist sick cult where they believe a person who is a piece of poo poo in every possible way I can think of and lies pathologically is the savior of America and ultimate arbiter of truth. It's not a political disagreement. It is literal madness. They exist in a sphere of thinking where reality no longer is in the picture and this isn't so they can believe in the Moon being a god or something but to justify some absolutely vile, disgusting, inhuman stuff. And this isn't like some regular cult poo poo where nobody outside the cult is harmed. The choices and actions your Trump supporting family members have done has resulted into so many people suffering and even dying that I can't keep count anymore. And I definitely can't keep count of the damage done in other ways, be it America's reputation abroad or domestic faith in its institutions. Every Trump supporter - even if they were brainwashed into being one - is a genuinely bad person. The fact that they may be nice to you and their immediate in-group does not change that. Their relation to you does not change that. Not talking about politics with them does not change that. Why do you normalize or even reward their horrific behavior by continuing to meet them? I have cut ties to family members (and friends) over far less insane and evil things then being a Trump supporter. I honestly have hard time even figuring out what set of beliefs would be as bad without crossing into criminal territory and not a single set of beliefs that is as insanely bad. If they became Islamists, Neo-Nazis or Stalinists, would you still hang out with them? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 22:10
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vincentpricesboner posted:Another way of looking at it is that for basically every president in history, people have been saying "this is the worst one ever" or "this is a sign of the end times". Its probably not. I mean, only a few presidents a go we clearly had "worse" presidents (in terms of entering wars that led to the slaughter of millions). We felt the same way when GWB was there (although he probably was one of the worst presidents ever). And as much as a proud and obvious baffoon Trump is, he hasn't done nearly the same amount of damage that GWB did. Although who knows once Trump is re-elected in 2020. The impeachment has only increased his polling numbers. Maybe they've always been the worst ever and they just keep getting worse. In fact that's definitely what the case is
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Dec 20, 2019 22:35
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BlackIronHeart posted:Yeah, I'm really glad my boomer parents are only getting more progressive as they get older. My Dad was like that too.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:51
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DarkCrawler posted:
Americans have largely been brainwashed to believe that politics are not that important and that you are a bad person if you cut off contact with people who have terrible political beliefs. Unsurprisingly, a lot of this attitude stems from conservatives who spout terrible bullshit and then act offended when people don't want to associate with them.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:56
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DarkCrawler posted:Being a Trump supporter is being a member of an insane hateful nihilist sick cult where they believe a person who is a piece of poo poo in every possible way I can think of and lies pathologically is the savior of America and ultimate arbiter of truth. It's not a political disagreement. It is literal madness. They exist in a sphere of thinking where reality no longer is in the picture and this isn't so they can believe in the Moon being a god or something but to justify some absolutely vile, disgusting, inhuman stuff. Holy poo poo man, I think you might need to absorb less politics because it is seriously bringing you down. Thinking that a literal hundred million people are all demon braindead zealots is quite the take. There are plenty of good people who voted for Trump, not the same rate as vice versa, but most people do not spend all their minutes analyzing politics like you might. Just saying, I've had guys rush to my car as it crashed into a ditch and started smoking, that were wearing camo jackets and certainly didn't vote liberal, but quite obviously were moral people. Hell, look at the wave after wave of people that are donating their time,money or food to church food banks, they aren't all liberals. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 23:03
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SchrodingersCat posted:Americans have largely been brainwashed to believe that politics are not that important and that you are a bad person if you cut off contact with people who have terrible political beliefs. Unsurprisingly, a lot of this attitude stems from conservatives who spout terrible bullshit and then act offended when people don't want to associate with them. I told someone the other day(that I have known for 15 years) that I do not respect him because he is a republican and supports such heinous things. He got very offended and said that "you're the one saying you don't respect someone else because of a difference in opinion." As if to say I would be that way towards anyone who disagrees with me in any way. They just can't comprehend the idea that the things they're supporting are genuinely horrible and people will dislike them for supporting those things. That somehow makes them a martyr in their own eyes and the other people the bad guys for being mean about politics.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:11
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empty whippet box posted:He got very offended and said that "you're the one saying you don't respect someone else because of a difference in opinion." Yeah, there's the actions they take, but those are driven by their opinions, and are how you would see those opinions in action, so it's all the same thing.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:15
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vincentpricesboner posted:Holy poo poo man, I think you might need to absorb less politics because it is seriously bringing you down. Thinking that a literal hundred million people are all demon braindead zealots is quite the take. "And some, I assume, are good people"
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Dec 20, 2019 23:16
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Robot Hobo posted:Is there any more valid reason to respect or not respect someone than the opinions they hold? Well they consider "minorities and women deserve human rights " to be an opinion and not liking someone because of a different opinion is the worst evil anyone can commit ever no matter what that opinion is. This same person also said he doesn't know why they're trying to impeach him but he knows they've been desperately trying to impeach him from day 1 and they need to quit it and get back to work. How am I supposed to have respect for someone like that? I literally do not understand what I'm supposed to respect or think well of here.
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Dec 20, 2019 23:27
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