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itry posted:May as well avoid 50% or more of any artistic medium. No most stuff uses allegory or obfuscates it somehow this gets pretty raw. On the right side of history but raw. As someone who works in social services it was tough to get through
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Dec 28, 2019 00:54
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Can't seem to access, gone private?
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Dec 28, 2019 00:56
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The impression I got from the twitter discussion was a blanket "I don't want to deal with hard issues" statement, but I respect the fact that some people may find certain topics to be a trigger of sorts. Heck, I have my own.
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Dec 28, 2019 00:58
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Hogama posted:The ones linked I saw just before going private were like "this game presents centrism as the correct choice because neither left not right options work and there's no option to just fix things with lasting change for the better" the amount of loving brainworms you have to have to get to this conclusion, holy poo poo
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Dec 28, 2019 00:59
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Doesn't the game call you names for being a peak centrist? How did this person come to this conclusion This is worse than the Twitter thread where they refuse to play the game because you can't make the detective a woman
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Dec 28, 2019 01:05
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There are absolutely valid criticisms to make of DE but most of the hottest takes come from people who played (or watched) like an hour and decided they know exactly what the game is and where it's going to go from there.
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Dec 28, 2019 01:11
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Doesn't the game call you names for being a peak centrist? How did this person come to this conclusion You get called names no matter what you go with, though centrism is savaged particularly hard in the sense that it's stand in is also the biggest loving piece of poo poo by far, which is to say nothing he says is at odds with centrism, he just sucks a lot and has no interesting quirks like Joyce and Evart
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Dec 28, 2019 01:11
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Hogama posted:The ones linked I saw just before going private were like "this game presents centrism as the correct choice because neither left not right options work and there's no option to just fix things with lasting change for the better" Hahahaha, imagine thinking this.
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Dec 28, 2019 01:14
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Epic High Five posted:You get called names no matter what you go with, though centrism is savaged particularly hard in the sense that it's stand in is also the biggest loving piece of poo poo by far, which is to say nothing he says is at odds with centrism, he just sucks a lot and has no interesting quirks like Joyce and Evart Like the game has some degree of actual respect for Joyce. Sunday Friend is the game mocking the poo poo out of West Wing Very Serious People and those who use the status quo and the Center as a shield to pretend they somehow don't take sides in any way and that that makes them superior. Which it is extremely right to do. Sunday Friend's total ridiculousness, uselessness, and vacuity is wonderful.
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Dec 28, 2019 01:17
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Night10194 posted:Like the game has some degree of actual respect for Joyce. Sunday Friend is the game mocking the poo poo out of West Wing Very Serious People and those who use the status quo and the Center as a shield to pretend they somehow don't take sides in any way and that that makes them superior. Which it is extremely right to do. It's About Inflation Stupid I wonder if they felt Joyce would be an interesting challenge, to take somebody with an ideology so repugnant to self identified leftists that and make them one of the most interesting and sympathetic characters in the game without cheating and doing like "but secretly she's a commie" As for Sunday Friend, I think they did him favors by making him relatively unmemorable. The notion that the game is especially unfair to non-commies or that it's super pro-communism is a pretty good indication that somebody didn't actually play the game or understand what was going on
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Dec 28, 2019 01:35
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Night10194 posted:Like the game has some degree of actual respect for Joyce. Sunday Friend is the game mocking the poo poo out of West Wing Very Serious People and those who use the status quo and the Center as a shield to pretend they somehow don't take sides in any way and that that makes them superior. Which it is extremely right to do. Hey now, Sunday Friend may see the world as an undifferentiated haze of macroeconomic statistics, but he's not entirely useless. His testimony and my own deductions punched a couple-few holes in Titus's initial story.
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Dec 28, 2019 01:35
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Epic High Five posted:It's About Inflation Stupid Honestly with Joyce it just sort of boils down to she's a liberal but has the good sense to be ashamed of it. *edit* I actually have some deeper thoughts on Joyce and why she's a compelling character and I think it boils down to she recognizes that she's as trapped by the system as everyone else. Like I get the sense that all she really wanted out of life was to have the freedom to take a boat out to sea and sail where she liked, and she thought that getting rich would give her that freedom, but it turns out that more power just comes with more obligations. Her wealth is dependent on maintenance of the system and the system is very high maintenance. She has realized late in life that the direction she took was orthogonal to what she actually wanted and is in too deep to really change anything now. Basically, the Sunday Friend LOVES the system, while Joyce is compliant with it but realizes it's bullshit. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 01:40
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Doesn't the game call you names for being a peak centrist? How did this person come to this conclusion having an option to play as a woman would have been cool. its not like becoming an alcoholic or pining over lost love is exclusive to men
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Dec 28, 2019 01:59
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except for the game being tied up with themes of masculinity, toxic or otherwise, ofc
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Dec 28, 2019 02:00
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Animal-Mother posted:Hahahaha, imagine thinking this. It astounds me that people seem to miss that if DE has any sort of ideological message re. making the world better, it's that it's done one hug at a time, with kindness, empathy and basic respect for other people rather than shouting political slogans at them. Hunting for the "I win" option among the caricature responses presented to you is a losing game to begin with.
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Dec 28, 2019 02:02
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Doesn't the game call you names for being a peak centrist? How did this person come to this conclusion It calls you names for taking any position including the centrist non-position and trusts the player's brain to not short-circuit when that happens, which unfortunately seems to have happened here. Anyway, the real centrism (where you can internalize it) isn't Sunday Friend, it's the voice in your head reminding you of the chaos and suffering that happened the last time there was a revolution and asking you whether it's worth trying that again. It is the one time the game drops the disdain for a second and presents the actual argument. Once you answer that it goes right back to the mockery.
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Dec 28, 2019 02:06
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Honestly with Joyce it just sort of boils down to she's a liberal but has the good sense to be ashamed of it. one of the core arguments of marxist critiques of capitalism is that individual men and women in the capitalist class have no real agency, they simply play a role in service to capital's need for endless growth. it is interesting that joyce only gets the ability to do something against the capitalist norms when the union pushed her into it. if she hadn't been convinced that escalating the showdown would have led to all-out war the company couldn't win, the idea of letting the union win woudn't have crossed any capitalist's mind
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Dec 28, 2019 02:08
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Okay I just got gifted this game for Christmas and A)the usual statement that it's brilliant and terrifying and sad and hilarious because it rings too close to home, but I just finished the Working-Class Woman's sidequest, and it's the closest a video game has gotten to getting me break out in tears while playing. I've had to have that conversation with people. They either know their poo poo or know people who have and have written accordingly. Goddamn.
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Dec 28, 2019 03:50
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CapitanGarlic posted:Okay I just got gifted this game for Christmas and A)the usual statement that it's brilliant and terrifying and sad and hilarious because it rings too close to home, but One thing I love about this part is how depending on how you've approached it, it can start off as a total joke, which makes the resolution just hit that much harder. Like "haha I'm being so wacky" and then later "oh man now I feel genuinely bad about that"
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Dec 28, 2019 03:52
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The thing about Joyce is, she says she's an Ultraliberal, but is she really? She has a moralist portrait, and by opposing both the company's mercs and the union's biggest demands, she has an attitude of "minor reforms are the only reasonable solution", which is basically peak moralism. She's friendly and helpful to your character, which endears you to her, but you're a cop, the enforcer for the system which keeps her rich. You're effectively on the same side, even if you don't want to be. I think what distinguishes Joyce from other moralists is that she at least admits she has an ideology, even if she doesn't live up to it. It's the notion that the status quo has no ideology that's so objectionable about centrism, and Joyce avoids that pitfall the other moralists all fall into and looks much better for it. That said, Joyce reminds me a lot of the discussions I'd have about unions back when I was a teenage libertarian. My intuition at the time was that unions must actually be good, because it's a case of people peacefully organising to negotiate better contracts based on their own rational self-interest, and right to work laws were an unreasonable state interference in the right of unions to freely negotiate closed shop contracts with employers. Watching my fellow libertarians twist themselves in knots to justify state intervention on the behalf of the rich because unions are actually bad really opened my eyes to the fact that for most libertarians, the only valid self-interest is their own. If Joyce is an ultra, at least she respects the self-interests of others, which puts her ahead of most real-world libertarians in my experience.
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Dec 28, 2019 10:47
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Joyce has the most thought out ideology, because each has two counterparts. As an Ultra she stands against Everet, the sozdem believer. But as a disillusioned Ulta her counterpart is call me maneana, the disillusioned Communist. She is also the most likely to change sides.
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Dec 28, 2019 11:31
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The Cheshire Cat posted:She has realized late in life that the direction she took was orthogonal to what she actually wanted and is in too deep to really change anything now. She's also remorseful about the Revolution not working out in her talks. It's pretty clear she's just trying to do the best she can, and to her, that means complying and working within the system. She would like to enact change, but is unable to, crushed by that system. So she spends her nights sleepless. Evrart/Edgar are the flipside. They are socialists through and through, but they realise they aren't in a socialist society. So, they do the best they can. To them, that is abusing the gently caress out of capitalism, and being deft operators in that system. It makes them corrupt and slimy, but in the end, they are the ones who accomplish the most towards their actual goal. e; and of course, the only truly sympathetic big-part characters are the Hardie Boys (loyalty to their fellows no matter what, and that includes their supposedly 'hated' cops if they show solidarity), Kim (a cop trying to perform his job that is important well, and having loyalty to his friend), and if you play him right, Harry (he can be the kind of cop who persists in doing what he does best to help people, despite the fact that life is doing everything it can to destroy him). All of these are predicated on the very leftist idea that community bonds run thicker than cash or even blood. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 12:24
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Shear Modulus posted:one of the core arguments of marxist critiques of capitalism is that individual men and women in the capitalist class have no real agency, they simply play a role in service to capital's need for endless growth. Now that I think of it, both Joyce and the brothers are a representation of it. Joyce wants to enact change, but she follows and is a lackey of capitalism, and she can't. The system crushed her. The brothers are true believers in socialism, but by having to operate in capitalism, they are corrupt, slimy; they endanger their people, and victories they win are possibly temporary. The system made them betray their principles, even as they work towards principled goals.
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Dec 28, 2019 12:43
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Just reached the point where the phasmid shows up and I think I said "holy poo poo" out loud. I can't believe something that starts out as a joke sidequest leads you to this weirdly beautiful, moving moment.
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Dec 28, 2019 14:01
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freebooter posted:something that starts out as a joke sidequest leads you to this weirdly beautiful, moving moment.
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Dec 28, 2019 14:46
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Reading the Day One thing in the art book, it's interesting that they originally planned to have 'strategic combat'. I'm really glad they thought better of it and took the risk by dropping a combat system. It gave what violence there was a huge amount of impact and made the game so much better. I don't think you could sustain the sort of humanity of the writing and the way no-one (except maybe Sunday Friend) is treated like a worthless person if you stopped to shoot up a bunch of faceless thugs sometimes.
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Dec 28, 2019 15:19
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Imagine getting killed by Cuno though
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Dec 28, 2019 15:31
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One of DEs best things is that, God willing, it will finally break other devs of feeling like they need to add combat mechanics to CRPGs even tho it was bad even 20 years ago and it is always everyvodys least favorite part of the games There's lots of ways to get the player involved in high stakes conflict and turn based iso stuff is like, the worst possible option
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Dec 28, 2019 15:34
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Imagine how much better Banner Saga would have been without its awful combat.
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Dec 28, 2019 15:37
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Night10194 posted:Imagine how much better Banner Saga would have been without its awful combat. awful awful combat
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Dec 28, 2019 15:40
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It's incredible how many games there are where it's like "this game is incredible but make sure to download this mod or read this guide on how to skip or cheese the tedious combat parts" and it took until DE for somebody to pull the trigger on cutting it out entirely Like i said I hope it's a trend, people don't get super into tabletop RPGs for the combat after all
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Dec 28, 2019 15:44
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Epic High Five posted:Like i said I hope it's a trend, people don't get super into tabletop RPGs for the combat after all That's not really true for everybody; some TT games do actually have good combat that is actually fun to play and well considered. It's just rare. E: Which is much like cRPG combat: There are some with good combat. It's relatively rare compared to 'God I wish I could get this over with and get back to the fun part'.
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Dec 28, 2019 15:50
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Night10194 posted:That's not really true for everybody; some TT games do actually have good combat that is actually fun to play and well considered. It's just rare. It's less a comment on the quality and more that the draw for most people is the roleplaying part. If you're just really wanting to build a shallow archetype to fight stuff, MMORPGs are gonna be your drug of choice Also of course there's the social aspect
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Dec 28, 2019 15:52
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Epic High Five posted:It's incredible how many games there are where it's like "this game is incredible but make sure to download this mod or read this guide on how to skip or cheese the tedious combat parts" and it took until DE for somebody to pull the trigger on cutting it out entirely It's that D&D baggage. The RPG that looms over the entire genre is extremely combat focused so you just can't have one without it, right? There's also elements of a lot of people feeling that combat is "easier" to design in a way where you can make meaningful moment to moment choices, when compared to dialogue. A good combat system allows you to just kind of throw together a random encounter and it would still be engaging, while doing the same with a non-combat encounter makes it a lot harder for the abstraction to really land. The big caveat here is the word "good" in front of "combat system". A lot of RPGs do not actually have good combat systems.
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Dec 28, 2019 16:18
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Epic High Five posted:It's less a comment on the quality and more that the draw for most people is the roleplaying part. If you're just really wanting to build a shallow archetype to fight stuff, MMORPGs are gonna be your drug of choice what if I want good combat and not MMO hotkey garbage
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Dec 28, 2019 16:37
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Andrast posted:what if I want good combat and not MMO hotkey garbage I've been told what you want is Warframe
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Dec 28, 2019 16:39
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Epic High Five posted:One of DEs best things is that, God willing, it will finally break other devs of feeling like they need to add combat mechanics to CRPGs even tho it was bad even 20 years ago and it is always everyvodys least favorite part of the games I legit no loving joke was absolutely loving tense when the mercs rolled in and saw them in full combat gear with rifles and then there is you with a breech-loaded pistol with two bullets. (Thankfully I saved a bunch of points because I figured that hand/eye coordination was going to do something as it is the actual Kill Skill) Quantum Shart posted:Scott Benson (night in the woods) put Disco in his Giantbomb fav games list and had some good thoughts on it. hell yeah this is extremely my poo poo
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Dec 28, 2019 16:42
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For real though, good combat absolutely enhances the roleplaying in both TTRPGs and cRPGs for me. Turn-based combat is a ton of fun, using it to resolve high stakes situations is great and coordinating with other players just makes it better. Developers still shouldn't shove combat into games that don't benefit from it though, like DE shows.
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Dec 28, 2019 16:45
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I know a friend who loved plane's cape but can't get into this game because there was no combat, it is like I've never known this guy for my whole adult life
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Dec 28, 2019 16:55
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The Saddest Rhino posted:I know a friend who loved plane's cape but can't get into this game because there was no combat, it is like I've never known this guy for my whole adult life ??????????? ??? ??????
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Dec 28, 2019 16:59
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