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Darth Walrus posted:Nationalism is simply prioritising the interests of your nation - or, to put it another way, the people you are responsible for as a national government. In a democratic society, it's simply a sales pitch that your policies will make your society better. If we cede that basic concept to far-right blood-and-soil psychos, then we've definitely lost. We're also probably going to lobby much more aggressively for British interests after Brexit, on the grounds that our international protections will be gone and a lot of foreign vultures (America, China, our old friends in the EU, you name it) will be coming for us. The next Labour government, if it can be elected, will have a much greater duty of care in a much more hostile world. I’m pretty sure you’ve confused duty of care and responsibility of a political party in a system of the nation state with a political ideology which functions based on the othering of another group based on an arbitrary trait.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:08
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Sanitary Naptime posted:Hi everyone! good to see you back buddy also rip Mike G
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Dec 31, 2019 12:16
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Sanitary Naptime posted:I’m pretty sure you’ve confused duty of care and responsibility of a political party in a system of the nation state with a political ideology which functions based on the othering of another group based on an arbitrary trait. Othering is simply how the right pretends it is maintaining its duty of care to its citizens - by treating foreigners even worse than it treats them. Again, the idea that nationalism is racism depends on the ugly notion that racism helps your citizenry, while equality and social justice hurts them. Equality is not a zero-sum game, no matter what the weird TERF in my CLP says.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:31
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Sanitary Naptime posted:I’m pretty sure you’ve confused duty of care and responsibility of a political party in a system of the nation state with a political ideology which functions based on the othering of another group based on an arbitrary trait. Well, you could use the word patriotism for the former and nationalism for the latter. If instead you use patriotism for the latter, do you even have a word left to describe the thing you do want? Unnamed concepts have a hard time winning votes.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:32
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Darth Walrus posted:Nationalism is simply prioritising the interests of your nation - or, to put it another way, the people you are responsible for as a national government. well i take issue with that as a definition of nationalism tbh, and i think it's safe to say that *english* nationalism is a whole other beast even if i was to agree with your definition.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:36
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gh0stpinballa posted:well i take issue with that as a definition of nationalism tbh, and i think it's safe to say that *english* nationalism is a whole other beast even if i was to agree with your definition. I feel, though, that a lot of that is simply because we've ceded way too much of the argument over what is good for the country to the right. Find a problem with nationalism, and you're usually going to find an unexamined right-wing argument that the left hasn't engaged with. About the most you can say is that rich countries prioritising the interests of their citizens will likely further inequality in a world where inequality exists, but, uh, that might not be so much of an issue for the UK after Brexit, and we'll probably have to get used to relearning the language of emancipatory nationalism as the real great powers close in.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:43
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Maugrim posted:It's a fund to help UKMTers who fall on hard times and need a bit of help buying food, making bills or rent, etc. It will be run by a democratically elected committee of 5 people plus a separate trusted person who manages the actual account. I'm sure donations will be super appreciated when it starts accepting them in probably late Jan? I should probably sign up for it myself, but I'd feel bad taking money from internet friends, and I'm sure others need it more. gh0stpinballa posted:labour lost by what 3 million votes, with brexit and corbyn cited as the 2 reasons people stayed away. I mean you can talk about why they didn't win a storming majority, absolutely, but I don't see this as a huge loss. Seems more like the Tories actually lost out in the popular vote, if you factor in the pact with BXP, overall turnout and vote share compared to 2017. I tried my own amateur breakdown of how things went in our constituency (very, very badly for Lab) but it just came out as rambling and disorganised and way, way too long for anyone to ever read. Ultimately, what it looks like to me is that tactical voting and Momentum concentrating on London only meant the opposition vote was split too much in a lot of constituencies to oppose the tories. gh0stpinballa posted:english patriotism/nationalism as well as being racist and genocidal is capitalist by definition so uh good luck trying to co-opt that from the left Then on the other hand there's an idealised possible alternative nationalism - being proud of our nation because it extolls progressive values and owns it's industries. Building something we can actually be proud of, rather than chuds crowing about randomly being born here because racism makes their lizard brain feel good. It's perfectly possible to aim for the second type, and I'd argue that the national obsession with the NHS shows that we do kind of already have that. Arguably that's what the last Labour manifesto was trying to build on, just probably not far enough on trans rights. E: Maybe 'patriotism' is a good way to go, since Nationalism is an established political theory thing tied to racism. SUNKOS posted:The left is wholesome and good etc. but they refuse to do what needs to be done, which is that at the end of the day they're going to need to realize that yes, you actually do have to sink to their level if you want to stand a chance. I hate that politics works this way but I think good policy makers like Corbyn and Milliband (before he panicked and went centrist pre election) should be behind the scenes in Mandelson type roles, while they put a nice, mid forties, ministerial looking sock puppet up front to appeal to the lazy 'they seem nice' voters. I'll second though that the left can absolutely play into the idea that you need a politics degree to enter the conversation though. Talking heads like Owen Jones can sometimes help bring it down to a more relatable level, but nobody is going to read a huge George Monbiot breakdown that nails exactly why capitalism is the problem when they can look at a tweet of Jeremy Clarkson taking the piss out of Greta Thundberg and vote on three word slogans like 'get brexit done' and 'oven ready deal.' Unfortunately this all comes back to this problem whereby the left needs to tell a complex truth while the right is telling a simpler lie. It's not about what you can prove is true, it's about what 'feels' true which is why people are looking to slide away from leftism in the wake of a Labour 'loss,' and talk about the legacy of Corbyn as if it's a bad thing. It's really, really loving insidious. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Dec 31, 2019 |
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Dec 31, 2019 12:45
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If the prevailing problem is that people don't find labour credible (in no small part because the last labour government was poo poo) then I don't think limply legitimizing the tory language on nationalism is going to solve the problem.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:45
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radmonger posted:Well, you could use the word patriotism for the former and nationalism for the latter. If instead you use patriotism for the latter, do you even have a word left to describe the thing you do want? One of the good things about Britain is that I'm not convinced it is a nation-state, so it can do socialist things like having public utilities without having to sell it through the lens of English nationalism.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:50
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Labour can not commit to nationalism enough to build legitimacy through it, the tories can always outstrip them, and boris has shown he's entirely willing to promise money if necessary to back up his appeals to xenophobia. I don't see how you expect to win that fight.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:55
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RLB’s piece had some very vague platitudes towards “patriotism” which didn’t even approach being controversial anywhere outside of leftist spaces like this one. To the vast majority of the country, patriotism just means generally liking the UK, which is not really an reasonable demand for a potential prime minister. The fact that Corbyn was seen as hating the country (a smear from the fascist press of course) was key in Labour’s defeat, so it’s a good idea to try and head that off at the pass as soon as possible. That’s really it. The whole thing really doesn’t merit this level of hand-wringing about it. Also lol at the screaming from melts because Corbyn didn’t publicly commit hari kiri in his New Year’s message.
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Dec 31, 2019 12:58
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I am willing to see where RLB goes with it but she's going to need other ideas than just corbynism with millibandian characteristics.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:00
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OwlFancier posted:Labour can not commit to nationalism enough to build legitimacy through it, the tories can always outstrip them, and boris has shown he's entirely willing to promise money if necessary to back up his appeals to xenophobia. Then of course you run against that you can't outstrip the liberals on that with their "global people holding hands and singing kumbaya but only if you can afford the tickets" vision, but hopefully we can rely on "lol, the lib dems".
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Dec 31, 2019 13:02
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Let's get down to the nitty gritty of a winning strategy then. Who do we need to turn and where to make up the seats for a parliament? The Tories got it spot on with their laser focus on "Workington Man" and Labour Leave seats. Surely given our huge defeat we now have a wide choice of battlegrounds and demographics to target and actually work on. Or are we not doing that and just going for a manifesto and marketing for that manifesto that the membership likes regardless of how it'll do? Either of these are valid but at the moment it seems like whenever the discussion goes to strategy people argue against on moral grounds and then the moment people start arguing about morality people oppose based on strategic grounds and I want to say "which of the two conversations are we having? Pick one or forever have this go round in circles." Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Dec 31, 2019 |
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Dec 31, 2019 13:08
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baka kaba posted:good to see you back buddy Miwk is eternal. Darth Walrus posted:Othering is simply how the right pretends it is maintaining its duty of care to its citizens - by treating foreigners even worse than it treats them. Again, the idea that nationalism is racism depends on the ugly notion that racism helps your citizenry, while equality and social justice hurts them. Equality is not a zero-sum game, no matter what the weird TERF in my CLP says. No, the entire basis of the nation state in itself is a form of othering. That arbitrary trait doesn’t need to be a racial or religious characteristic, living on the wrong side of a map line is enough to say “you don’t deserve good things” if you’re trying to keep the blood and soil out of it (good luck maintaining that for long). radmonger posted:Well, you could use the word patriotism for the former and nationalism for the latter. If instead you use patriotism for the latter, do you even have a word left to describe the thing you do want? Both of them are, on a functional level to individual people, pride in belonging to a nationstate. You can pick apart the subtle differences academically and say “well actually”, but if the functional practices of them on the electorate are the same then it’s dumb as gently caress to try and co-opt them. What I want is socialism, what you’re wanting is a cure for those brain worms you’ve spent all year vomiting through the thread.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:09
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Azza Bamboo posted:Let's get down to the nitty gritty of a winning strategy then. Who do we need to turn and where to make up the seats for a parliament? The Tories got it spot on with their laser focus on "Workington Man" and Labour Leave seats. Surely given our huge defeat we now have a wide choice of battlegrounds and demographics to target and actually work on.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:11
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OwlFancier posted:I am willing to see where RLB goes with it but she's going to need other ideas than just corbynism with millibandian characteristics. It’s the slide towards blue labour that the language risks that worries me the most. Azza Bamboo posted:Let's get down to the nitty gritty of a winning strategy then. Who do we need to turn and where to make up the seats for a parliament? The Tories got it spot on with their laser focus on "Workington Man" and Labour Leave seats. Surely given our huge defeat we now have a wide choice of battlegrounds and demographics to target and actually work on. The next election is five years away, there’s no point thinking along the lines of tactical electoralism just now, what’s required is extra parliamentary work setting up a labour presence that’s visible and involved in communities across the country to build up a trust base that’s directly involved in people’s lives. That’ll do way more than triangulating the racism prism.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:13
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OwlFancier posted:Labour can not commit to nationalism enough to build legitimacy through it, the tories can always outstrip them, and boris has shown he's entirely willing to promise money if necessary to back up his appeals to xenophobia. The point is not to out-nationalism the Tories, the point is just to be sufficiently patriotic that voters don't have to struggle with the problem of 'his policy platform says he's for me but he also hung out with people who blew up shopping centres, I cannot reconcile these two things'. It really isn't a high hurdle to meet. The right wing press will still monster any labour leader, but 'eats a bacon sandwich a bit funny' is a much easier problem to deal with than 'regularly hangs out with terrorists'.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:15
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Azza Bamboo posted:Let's get down to the nitty gritty of a winning strategy then. Who do we need to turn and where to make up the seats for a parliament? The Tories got it spot on with their laser focus on "Workington Man" and Labour Leave seats. Surely given our huge defeat we now have a wide choice of battlegrounds and demographics to target and actually work on. As I said before, labour needs to take its northern seats back, but it can not sacrifice the young and the cities to do it. It needs both. It's never going to win in mega tory places but it needs to address the problem it's had for decades at this point with declining credibility in the north, which I think is going to mean doing something other than a one size fits all manifesto. You need to talk to people here with actual plans for here. Show you actually give a poo poo. Buy ads in the local papers to advertise your plan for the area, use the next five years to put out actual commitments for us. Because I don't think people are gonna buy the idea that they'll actually see any benefit from country-wide plans, because we didn't when blair was in charge, and we haven't with the tories in charge either. If you're going to tell people you'll build them a future you have to give the impression you have actually seen where they live once in your life, that you actually give a poo poo. Alchenar posted:The point is not to out-nationalism the Tories, the point is just to be sufficiently patriotic that voters don't have to struggle with the problem of 'his policy platform says he's for me but he also hung out with people who blew up shopping centres, I cannot reconcile these two things'. It really isn't a high hurdle to meet. Corbyn could rub one out with the union flag on live TV and they'd still say he was a terrorist, the way you show you're patriotic and hate terrorists is by going full blood and soil on anyone who fails the paper bag test, just in case. It is a loving fabrication and one they'll keep up with whatever labour says or does. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Dec 31, 2019 |
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Dec 31, 2019 13:16
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Sanitary Naptime posted:the racism prism 
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Dec 31, 2019 13:17
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Labour is stuck in a circle they can't square right now with this particular electorate. Labour's "Morally right" does not equal "gets votes" because the electorate is operating on a different morality. They don't believe the same things. They're 'gender critial' sisters, 'i can't hear people speaking English these days' brothers in law, or 'traveller camps everywhere, making a mess' parents. Campaigns and slogans are not going to reach them or change firmly entrenched beliefs. Only time and consequences will do that. Labour don't have enough people onside yet . It's just the way it is and hopefully the next generation will be where Labour can really find votes.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:24
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It’s not as hopeless as all that unless we’re intent on only engaging with parliament and nothing else. Community activism and interaction is going to be a key element over the next five years, and with the right framing could lead to a massive victory. Exposing people to effective left wing policy works, and the only way we can do this is outside of the electoral system. The fragmentation of the left has been less of an issue the last few years, and a lot of extraparliamentary groups have been willing to work with labour and for a labour victory, if the leadership election goes well, I don’t see that collapsing, so we still have a large base to work with.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:32
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Comrade Fakename posted:RLB’s piece had some very vague platitudes towards “patriotism” which didn’t even approach being controversial anywhere outside of leftist spaces like this one. To the vast majority of the country, patriotism just means generally liking the UK, which is not really an reasonable demand for a potential prime minister. The fact that Corbyn was seen as hating the country (a smear from the fascist press of course) was key in Labour’s defeat, so it’s a good idea to try and head that off at the pass as soon as possible. That’s really it. The whole thing really doesn’t merit this level of hand-wringing about it. yeah exactly Corbyn was (especially in the beginning) principled and honest when asked questions, so when an interviewer goes "Mr Corbyn, is Britain poo poo?" he'd give a good faith answer to that which comes down to "in some ways yeah". That's obviously a trick question, the nuance is gonna be lost on a lot of people, they don't want to hear anything but "no". To them, it comes across as a lack of pride in the country, and a disparagement of people who don't think Britain is poo poo (for whatever reason) If you're gonna do the Bernie Sanders pivot, where you turn the question around to what you actually want to talk about, it helps if you can keep the framing of the question the same - you don't avoid the topic of whether Britain is good or bad, you say it's good because of X Y Z, the stuff you want people to identify with and be proud of and fight for. You're not answering the original gotcha question, but you're not avoiding the subject either, you're not obviously ducking around a difficult topic. You own it and defang those common attacks and turn it around on the tories - if they love Britain, why are they loving it up so badly? What does the pork pie trade have to do with local businesses closing down? Why isn't Britain pushing for a green economy and investment and continuing to be a world leader in vital technology that could save the planet?
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Dec 31, 2019 13:35
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Even consequences won’t do it; look at Australia! The country’s literally burning to the ground and it hasn’t changed things yet. We need to build trust before people will even listen. Jeremy Corbyn was good at building trust in 2017 because he came across as authentic. That got him the space for people to listen to him enough to learn more about his values. Which were enough different from theirs that they went back to distrusting him again. I don’t know for sure what strategy will get us there although I suspect it involves a lot of old fashioned community work and tangible help that people will remember.
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Dec 31, 2019 13:36
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Guavanaut posted:"We used to be a white country, now it's red and yellow and pink and green, orange and purple and blue." But at least black doesn't exist!!! *relaxes grip on pearl necklace*
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Dec 31, 2019 13:44
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Love our press https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1211987816105861122?s=19
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Dec 31, 2019 14:06
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Don't be ridiculous, only the left is bigoted
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Dec 31, 2019 14:11
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Purple Prince posted:Don't be ridiculous, only the left is bigoted https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1211976633709711360?s=19
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Dec 31, 2019 14:29
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lmao, literally blaming Jewish Holocaust refugees for the destruction of Western culture and the rise of antisemitism.
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Dec 31, 2019 14:35
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Me (Simplicio): antisemitism led to the Holocaust, because Nazis. Melanie Pissflaps (Salviati): the Holocaust led to antisemitism, because Jews.
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Dec 31, 2019 14:37
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three cheers for people's hero boris keeping that nasty antisemitic marxist out of number 10 - new column for the guardian by me, noted anti-racist campaigner and amateur phrenologist
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Dec 31, 2019 15:08
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Darth Walrus posted:Nationalism is simply prioritising the interests of your nation - or, to put it another way, the people you are responsible for as a national government. In a democratic society, it's simply a sales pitch that your policies will make your society better. If we cede that basic concept to far-right blood-and-soil psychos, then we've definitely lost. I agree with this, or at least that's what a left nationalism should be. How was a Corbyn gov supposed to be internationalist as a contrast? I'm kind of confused at the way the term is used, we're we meant to be spending an equal amount of time dedicated to international socialism as building something in our own country? Or is it just used to mean pro immigration?
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Dec 31, 2019 15:10
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Well I already knew Giles Coren was exactly as bad as Toby Young and for the same reasons, but uh, I just saw this: https://twitter.com/gilescoren/status/177343392861270016
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Dec 31, 2019 15:12
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I just keep going back and looking at it. I remember a friend of mine worked in a pub and said that once they had to clean the toilets and someone had shat in a beer bottle and left it in the bowl. Like inside the bowl was a beer bottle with a perfectly formed human turd inside it. That's what that column reminds me of. There's fractals of wrong within it, from the uncritical rehashing of alt-right talking points as if they're established fact, to the complete misunderstanding of the Frankfurt School and critical theory, to the assertion that the first half of the 20th century was all about rationality and progress and the second half was about emotions triumphing over facts. Like why would you do this? Why would this be a thing that you spend effort making, and how did you manage to get to where you got to?
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Dec 31, 2019 15:17
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So either someone built a human rear end in a top hat > beer bottle adaptor or someone out there is walking around with an rear end in a top hat like a bottling machine.
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Dec 31, 2019 15:19
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I hope that someone gets my I hope that someone gets my I hope that someone gets my Jobby In A Bottle
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Dec 31, 2019 15:24
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Sticking a cake decorator nozzle up my rear end hole as I prepare to write "the rational objective societies of the 30s would never have allowed antisemitism like today" in a major newspaper.
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Dec 31, 2019 15:26
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Being able to crimp bottle caps on with your ringpiece is a hell of a superpower.
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Dec 31, 2019 15:28
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Guavanaut posted:I just keep going back and looking at it. Remember that she featured in breiviks manifesto because he liked her writing
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Dec 31, 2019 15:28
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Gotta love that I'll be entering the 2020s with the worst cold I've ever had. The only thing worse was the flu I had in the 2000s.
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