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People are just kinda exhausted of dealing with bad faith actors playing the "just asking questions" game, especially in a situation that wasn't as foggy as it looked - it was pretty clear it was a coup from the get-go if you knew anything about Latin American politics and history. I don't think Wobbuffet was faking anything, she was just...wrong, and wrong about something that keeps driving every drat country in the continent towards fascism, and set in her wrong ways. I can't talk for everyone but nowadays my patience is reserved for people that WANT to learn.
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Jan 1, 2020 19:41
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ANIME AKBAR posted:The kneejerk assumption that any questions in the echo chamber must be from bad-faith actors is killing this entire forum, and it's painful to watch it happen. It was super obvious what was happening from day one, idiot
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Jan 1, 2020 19:44
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Thanks. Wobuffet lives in Bolivia and "didn't know about Camacho being involved" according to one of her posts. That's about on the level of claiming to be actively engaged and interested in the 2020 American elections but not having heard of Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders. Here's the thing: if you are in Bolivia, and you claim to be surprised by any of how this all played out, there is only two possible ways this could happen. You're either acting out of bad faith, or you are so comfortable in your own relatively privileged existence that you are like a random white person in the US who convinced themselves that truly the civil war was about states rights and there is no reason to further investigate that belief of yours. And sure, maybe it's the second; as I said, I have perfect examples in my own family, but I don't think it's the less reprehensible position. Just for a little anecdote on the pettiness of the disdain for the uppity indigenous people that is shared among a large part of these so called democratic revolution: I am not sure anymore if I posted this here or on discord, but when the teleférico (the cable car public transit system Morales government built between El Alto and La Paz) was turned off in the immediate aftermath of the coup for 24h or something such, I said they would literally go after it for good, because just having the undesirables turn up in the good parts of town thanks to public transit led to a lot of whining and resentment. So, this is what happened: https://twitter.com/OVargas52/status/1209572172391473152 The coup government is literally trying to prosecute the architect of the public cable car transit system for "economic damages, terrorism and sedition". Spice World War II fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jan 1, 2020 |
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Jan 1, 2020 20:00
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these people are more insane and fash than bolsonaro trump and johnson combined and it was obvious from day one
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Jan 1, 2020 20:07
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These are some pol pot fucks only with a bible.
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Jan 1, 2020 20:09
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Spice World War II posted:Wobuffet lives in Bolivia and "didn't know about Camacho being involved" according to one of her posts. That's about on the level of claiming to be actively engaged and interested in the 2020 American elections but not having heard of Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders. There's a very intellectually honest guy in the replies saying that since the project cost ~$4.5 mln more than the hypothetical cost of a similar system in Mexico then it's actually good that Dockweiler is being arrested since he must have embezzled that hypothetical money saved.
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Jan 1, 2020 20:50
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mortons stork posted:There's a very intellectually honest guy in the replies saying that since the project cost ~$4.5 mln more than the hypothetical cost of a similar system in Mexico then it's actually good that Dockweiler is being arrested since he must have embezzled that hypothetical money saved. How dare you snarkily imply bad faith where clearly that person is just going by the best information available to him
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Jan 1, 2020 20:54
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Spice World War II posted:How dare you snarkily imply bad faith where clearly that person is just going by the best information available to him To be fair that could easily be ignorance, people buy into dumb narratives because it paints the guys they already dislike as being in the wrong. That's not bad faith, it's selective blindness.
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Jan 1, 2020 20:59
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I mean even conceding that the infrastructure guy was embezzling money and costs are increasing because of it, if that guy managed to inflate costs by only like a quarter then I'd have him do infrastructure in Italy, it's sure gonna be better than having costs balloon as they do routinely to double or quadruple the initial estimate. Sounds like a genius.
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Jan 1, 2020 21:05
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mortons stork posted:I mean even conceding that the infrastructure guy was embezzling money and costs are increasing because of it, if that guy managed to inflate costs by only like a quarter then I'd have him do infrastructure in Italy, it's sure gonna be better than having costs balloon as they do routinely to double or quadruple the initial estimate. Sounds like a genius. Also none of that of course explains the "sedition and terrorism" charges of course that everyone associated with the Morales government in any form is now accused of.
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Jan 1, 2020 21:17
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At any rate with the benefit of hindsight and taking into account the video posted on the previous page, I think we can all agree: Chomsky can Sorry if I'm late on this but I've only ever seen him clean-shaven. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 1, 2020 22:10
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Yeah that's not really up for debate anymore (though maybe paramilitary is more accurate). The Christofascist lady replaced the heads of the military with her own stooges. There's nothing "para"military about it. Also brugroffil posted:It was super obvious what was happening from day one, idiot
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Jan 1, 2020 23:52
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Dias posted:To be fair that could easily be ignorance, people buy into dumb narratives because it paints the guys they already dislike as being in the wrong. That's not bad faith, it's selective blindness. It's a question of definitions whether confirmation bias and belief perseverance qualify as "bad faith." I assume most people would define it as being a deliberately hostile actor, usually without letting on that you are one. But I imagine you could also argue that it's simply the opposite of "good faith" -- and you need only argue without acknowledging all the facts or respecting the people you disagree with to be in bad faith.
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Jan 1, 2020 23:57
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Cup Runneth Over posted:The Christofascist lady replaced the heads of the military with her own stooges. There's nothing "para"military about it. Also It was paramilitary forces providing the muscle for the coup itself, though. The army just sat on its hands and then got its leadership replaced by the paramilitary fascists after the coup.
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Jan 2, 2020 00:00
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Darth Walrus posted:It was paramilitary forces providing the muscle for the coup itself, though. The army just sat on its hands and then got its leadership replaced by the paramilitary fascists after the coup. Cup Runneth Over posted:The Christofascist lady replaced the heads of the military with her own stooges. There's nothing "para"military about it. Also Paramilitary is still military and entertaining that discussion point needlessly confuses the issue (which is the main goal of the nazi sympathizers in this thread).
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Jan 2, 2020 00:07
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Darth Walrus posted:It was paramilitary forces providing the muscle for the coup itself, though. The army just sat on its hands and then got its leadership replaced by the paramilitary fascists after the coup. Wrong. The military called on Evo to resign and soldiers and cops participated in the coup.
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Jan 2, 2020 00:24
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Cup Runneth Over posted:It's a question of definitions whether confirmation bias and belief perseverance qualify as "bad faith." I assume most people would define it as being a deliberately hostile actor, usually without letting on that you are one. But I imagine you could also argue that it's simply the opposite of "good faith" -- and you need only argue without acknowledging all the facts or respecting the people you disagree with to be in bad faith. I feel like saying someone is acting "in bad faith" implies the former, and while that seems like an useless distinction to make, it actually matters because the latter is way more prevalent and actually might be worth engaging unless you're just looking to drop a sicknasty burn because you're The Most Leftist. Like, that Mexican dude posting here a while ago I don't think was acting in bad faith, he truly believes the narrative he was sold on. Those people I feel are worth spending some energy on even if they aren't acknowledging facts, because sometimes they haven't really ATTEMPTED to reflect on their preconceived reality at all. Sometimes poo poo sticks, sometimes someone else in their life shows up and says the same things and they go "huh". I've seen it happen. I'm not even saying "be nice", just challenge them and save the "gently caress off bootlickers" for people that are WAY beyond reprieve.
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Jan 2, 2020 01:19
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I think that guy was interacting in good faith, but while fairly respectful, was not going to have his mind changed by this thread. What I'd like to believe might happen, though, is that he takes the concepts and arguments laid out by this thread and carries them with him, slowly changing over time into a better person.
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Jan 2, 2020 03:04
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You are talking about that "hey I dont know anything about anything and I dont have any data or facts to back my claims but I know AMLO aid programs are bad cause the poor are all buying latest iphones with the money, here some photos of children playing in stores that proves it" guy? I dont really think thats good faith, sincerely
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Jan 2, 2020 12:31
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Elias_Maluco posted:You are talking about that "hey I dont know anything about anything and I dont have any data or facts to back my claims but I know AMLO aid programs are bad cause the poor are all buying latest iphones with the money, here some photos of children playing in stores that proves it" guy? Eh, I am in Brazil and that particular brand of unaware racism/classism is really common amongst middle/upper class people here, so I buy the poster being earnest with those takes.
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Jan 2, 2020 12:34
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Sure it is, but to for me "I don't know anything but trust me it is exactly like I say it is and I'll argue for pages that it is like I was actually sure about it, here some photo of children from social media" still can't be considered arguing in good faith
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Jan 2, 2020 13:21
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I was an idiot centrist once so I sympathize with idiot centrists who don't know any better and really just want to hear voices from both sides. I stop sympathizing with them when they stop listening and instead make their stand on the side with the actual assholes.
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Jan 2, 2020 16:41
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Is the Amazon still on fire?
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Jan 2, 2020 17:31
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Elias_Maluco posted:Sure it is, but to for me "I don't know anything but trust me it is exactly like I say it is and I'll argue for pages that it is like I was actually sure about it, here some photo of children from social media" still can't be considered arguing in good faith Oh, I think it was good faith as in he wasn't trolling the thread or trying to catch us slipping, he was just set in his worldview. Like, he came here to present his perspective, he was just wrong. Very wrong. Eventually you just kinda give up and hope something sticks, but it's not malicious discourse. GimmickMan posted:I was an idiot centrist once so I sympathize with idiot centrists who don't know any better and really just want to hear voices from both sides. gently caress, I think most of us were idiot centrists, it's what we're taught by the media and our schools as the "correct" way of talking and thinking politics. It's why I find value in explaining poo poo even if it falls on deaf ears, no one ever got radicalized by a tasty-as-gently caress Twitter takedown. It's a slow-rear end, gradual process. I mean, unless you went to college for a History major and then it's kinda like Blue by Eiffel 65 but it's Marx instead of Blue; or you lucked out, were born in a family that's Marxist and you didn't become an ancap in your rebellious phase.
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Jan 2, 2020 18:35
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i am harry posted:Is the Amazon still on fire? After regime change in Bolivia, the fires immediately died down, because they needed socialism to feed them. You can hear all about it when #SOSBolivia founder Jhanisse Vaca-Daza of the Oslo Freedom Forum and Human Rights Foundation holds her talk on how to spark global democratic revolution at SXSW 2020! Get your tickets now!
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Jan 2, 2020 18:36
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https://twitter.com/BadEmpanada/status/1212626012749647873
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Jan 2, 2020 21:28
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i'm sure there's a nuanced reason for it
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Jan 2, 2020 21:34
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Just posting to say I was legit here asking a question about world perception. As I said I believe there is a lot of smart and well informed people here that can show me things I don't see. And to the guy that said that I probablly won't change my mind, you are correct. The chance of my changing my view of AMLO is pretty slim, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to learn other perspectives about him and the general current gov
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Jan 3, 2020 03:07
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Dias posted:gently caress, I think most of us were idiot centrists, it's what we're taught by the media and our schools as the "correct" way of talking and thinking politics. It's why I find value in explaining poo poo even if it falls on deaf ears, no one ever got radicalized by a tasty-as-gently caress Twitter takedown. It's a slow-rear end, gradual process. I mean, unless you went to college for a History major and then it's kinda like Blue by Eiffel 65 but it's Marx instead of Blue; or you lucked out, were born in a family that's Marxist and you didn't become an ancap in your rebellious phase. This definitely isn't true. Look at Peter Daou. And in my case it was reading LF back when that subforum existed and realizing that I didn't really have any counter to the people making fun of liberals. That being said, I'm sure it varies depending upon the person, and I generally agree that it's best to at least make a good faith attempt at explaining things to begin with, but it's easy to end up with a situation where the person says "I'm happy we had this dialogue" and nothing changes (because through being kind you've basically sent the message "the things you believe are reasonable."
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Jan 3, 2020 03:17
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Ytlaya posted:This definitely isn't true. Look at Peter Daou. And in my case it was reading LF back when that subforum existed and realizing that I didn't really have any counter to the people making fun of liberals. I mean, Daou kinda changed his mind based on aggressive discourse but more because he found himself embroiled in it and realized "wait, maybe I'm just getting into shouting matches here, let's take a step back". It was also a very sudden and bizarre shift that took a ton of people by surprise, so it's not exactly par for the course. In your case, maybe I should have qualified it. No one ever got radicalized by eating an ice-cold Twitter burn. Well, at least not just because of that, anyway. I think dunking on people (and beliefs) that deserve to be dunked on is a good thing because people like you back in LF will read that poo poo and go "huh, maybe that's some dumb bullshit". I don't think ignorance fits the bill, although there's a limit between ignorance and willful blindness. I kinda disagree that being kind and telling someone they're wrong are anathema too. I can understand how you came to believe something that's wrong...and then demonstrate that you are wrong. Of course, that doesn't apply if you're a goddamn Nazi or an ancap older than 16, but if we're gonna sacrifice everyone poisoned by neoliberal discourse we're gonna need a toooon of ammo.
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Jan 3, 2020 03:36
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Before reading dead gay forums like this one I was a liberal and was religious. After reading dead gay forums I am now a socialist and an atheist.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:57
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Dias posted:I mean, Daou kinda changed his mind based on aggressive discourse but more because he found himself embroiled in it and realized "wait, maybe I'm just getting into shouting matches here, let's take a step back". It was also a very sudden and bizarre shift that took a ton of people by surprise, so it's not exactly par for the course. I think that at some point it kinda becomes impossible to be kind while honestly communicating about this sort of thing. Like to take the guy in this thread as an example, you can exchange arguments and explain why the points he made are bigoted and harmful, and maybe the person was completely oblivious and just never thought about things before, but if the person doesn't change their mind there isn't really any accurate conclusion other than "you're being a very bad person." And there isn't any non-insulting way to tell someone they're a bad person. I think that between the two possibilities of "end the conversation with them thinking that it's nice they had a calm exchange with a leftist" and "end the conversation by directly stating that you think they're a bad person because of their beliefs," the latter is better and has a higher chance of getting them to change their mind in the future. Maybe it'll make them double-down, but the first option isn't really succeeding in communicating how bad their beliefs are (so why should they feel pressured to change them?). The only path to them changing their mind is one where they actually properly understand how harmful and bad their beliefs are, and how are you supposed to properly communicate that if you treat them like they're still a good/reasonable person despite their opinions?
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Jan 3, 2020 08:51
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Half the battle of convincing someone is environmental sadly, which means that as long as you're the only one telling them their beliefs are bad, and literally everything else in their world tells them that they are, in fact, good and correct, even the tiny amount of headway to their heart you might have made gets immediately erased, and if anything it gets people to double down when they next come in to discuss.
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Jan 3, 2020 08:59
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Oh, trust me, I wasted enough time during the 2018 elections to know that whatever little headspace I'd built in someone's mind would just get swamped if someone closer to them was spouting bullshit, no matter how much credibility I held with that person. It sucks, but I still think it was better to engage with them than not. You're not wrong, there's a point where it's impossible to do so, and you don't need to be all "i respect your point of view but". I've dropped my fair share of "relationships" after failed attempts at communicating that Bolsonaro was kinda poo poo or that PT actually did some good. But if you ain't at least trying, gently caress is you doing? You just gotta know when to cut your losses, I suppose, and hope a bit of what you said stuck when that happens.
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Jan 3, 2020 09:36
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Wobbuffet = Bana Alabed its pretty well known that the FBI monitors the forums, or am i wrong and they stopped?  she literally made an account just to post in this very thread and the first post is her swearing she isn't a government official BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jan 4, 2020 |
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Jan 4, 2020 04:20
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Hey, how's Argentina doing right now? Wikipedia tells me that Fernández has done some stuff by now:quote:His first legislative initiative, the Social Solidarity and Productive Recovery Bill, was passed by Congress on December 23.
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Jan 4, 2020 22:59
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Hey, how's Argentina doing right now? Wikipedia tells me that Fernández has done some stuff by now: The bad: To quote the ex-viceminister of economy of the late K era, "If everything goes well, 2020 will be a lovely year." Macri razed the country so Argentina is neck-deep in debt it literally can't pay while CEOs are filing for Paraguayan nationality so they don't have to actually pay the taxes you posted. It's not looking good, but 2020 can't really be worse than 2019 and we're still alive so eh. The good: Fernandez is clearly a workaholic and he's got rhethoric on the level of Cristina without being, you know, an impresentable. On the macro level his measures make sense and are things that most people can agree on. He's clearly got a temper but also he makes a visible effort to sit down to talk with the anti-K crowd in the media which I guess makes sense since he used to be their favorite "Repentant K" until a few months ago and I can respect having a president that isn't trying to polarize super hard every single time they open their mouth. The memetic: I never expected I would see the president show up at the Buenos Aires Public University to grade final exams. Those were oral exams too so it must've been intimidating as hell. edit: oh also he said cartoons like warner brother's (bugs bunny, etc.) helped raise a society of tricksters and scammers who took advantage of other people. that was... that was a thing. GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 4, 2020 |
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Jan 4, 2020 23:33
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The measures so far are quite decent for argentinian standards, I must say I'm pleasantly surprised Of course you have Clarin/LN/TN/etc all saying it's massive ajuste mayhem and poor job creators etc etc but that just means the owners of the media are getting squeezed which is good by me If Fernandez continues on this track I guess we can hope for the next years being "not absolutely terrible" or even, if we're really lucky and the barons of the conurbano don't start doing too heavy a mafia, we could go all the way up to "not terrible" All in all, good prognosis But again, we're still in early honeymoon stages where all the middle government is playing nice. They'll start making noise soon I imagine, asking for kickbacks and doing their own lovely things, and then it'll all be up to how the top executive deals with it (peronismo.txt) Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 5, 2020 |
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Jan 5, 2020 02:37
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GimmickMan posted:Macri razed the country so Argentina is neck-deep in debt it literally can't pay while CEOs are filing for Paraguayan nationality so they don't have to actually pay the taxes you posted.
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Jan 5, 2020 07:19
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https://twitter.com/chrstphr_woody/status/1213901694146404354
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Jan 5, 2020 21:06
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