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I keep waiting for this game to shut down, there is no way this poo poo show is going to actually release.
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Dec 28, 2019 19:26
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Im going to take a wild guess that management is going to keep drawing paychecks until the bank accounts are empty. If they were to close up shop now theyd have to figure out how to give the money theyve raised back.
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Dec 28, 2019 21:11
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Maybe they'll just keep getting donations from wealthy nerds and they will keep bloating the concept thus extending the development time until, finally, Pantheon actually becomes a neutron star
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Dec 28, 2019 22:34
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If this game ever does release it will be such a poo poo show. Even "real" games have a hard time coping with bug fixing on the first few weeks of an MMOs lifespan, this game has absolutely no chance unless they somehow triple their development team. VR seems to think that time has no impact on the state of the game- like they can just take as much time as they need and when it finally comes out it will all be okay. This nonsense doesn't work for most games (with the possible exception of single player nostalgia graphics indie titles) but it certainly doesn't work for MMOs.
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Jan 2, 2020 09:22
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quote:I played EverQuest 1 from 1999-2007 and that game holds a dear place in my heart. Intermittently I played Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, FFXI you name it I've probably played it.
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Jan 2, 2020 16:45
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keep chasing the dream, mmo players
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Jan 2, 2020 17:31
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If they can get by with 2k or so playerbase for a couple years after release while they polish things and add content and market the game I think it’ll do fine. At least they have the advantage of being the only remotely hardcore style game even trying to exist. In any case I’m resigned to playing p99 for at least another few years until this releases which isn’t at all bad.
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Jan 2, 2020 17:39
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game looks insanely terrible.
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Jan 3, 2020 04:39
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I hope it does come out simply because it will be an elephant graveyard for MMO Boomers who can't let it go and understand the reason we put up with the poo poo EQ and UO handed us was because there were no other options. It was the people you interacted with, not the game.
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Jan 3, 2020 05:02
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Givin posted:I hope it does come out simply because it will be an elephant graveyard for MMO Boomers who can't let it go and understand the reason we put up with the poo poo EQ and UO handed us was because there were no other options. The current best example of why oldschool mmo design does not work in the modern era is what happened towow classic PVP servers after the honor system went live but there weren't battlegrounds yet. This lead t servers where a slight imbalance to start with ended with one side camping the other's capital until the entire faction left the server, leading to servers with literal 90/10 population splits. Then BGs came out and the severe imbalance led to unending ques for BGs. Then to fix that they enabled xserver grouping and here we are back in the glory days of vent servers (discord now) where a person says 'ok, click in 3 2 1 click' and the HWL grind is over 1m honor per week.
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Jan 3, 2020 08:57
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Byolante posted:The current best example of why oldschool mmo design does not work in the modern era is what happened towow classic PVP servers after the honor system went live but there weren't battlegrounds yet. This lead t servers where a slight imbalance to start with ended with one side camping the other's capital until the entire faction left the server, leading to servers with literal 90/10 population splits. Then BGs came out and the severe imbalance led to unending ques for BGs. Then to fix that they enabled xserver grouping and here we are back in the glory days of vent servers (discord now) where a person says 'ok, click in 3 2 1 click' and the HWL grind is over 1m honor per week. That’s more of an example of why faithfully recreating the exact design (NO CHANGES) of a 15 year old game is problematic.
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Jan 3, 2020 13:01
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Yeah that’s a crummy example that’s pretty unique to one game, and speaks more to why a faction divide is dumb. I don’t think these nostalgic MMOs are trying to set new sub records, just provide an option for a small consistent group of players. I play several old MMOs that are still releasing content that work like this, and to me they are more fun than the generic modernized games.
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Jan 3, 2020 16:11
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Ehud posted:That’s more of an example of why faithfully recreating the exact design (NO CHANGES) of a 15 year old game is problematic. Many of us wanted a Progression server, Give me 15 years of WOW in 3 or 4 years. Classic is clearly dropping players now that they know the game was more grind NPCs then do quests. Ahh the fun of classic.
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Jan 4, 2020 02:33
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PyRosflam posted:Many of us wanted a Progression server, Give me 15 years of WOW in 3 or 4 years. Classic is clearly dropping players now that they know the game was more grind NPCs then do quests. Ahh the fun of classic. EQ does those and it’s pretty cool. I’d do from classic to WoTLK.
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Jan 4, 2020 02:41
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I think most people that played vanilla WoW knew the classic server was going to be a flash in the pan. Im still kind of sad I didnt bother playing it at launch for at least a month or two since thats the period when these types of things can still be pretty fun. I seriously doubt Pantheon is going to even achieve that brief bit of fun. It doesnt even have the nostalgia factor that stuff like EQ time lock servers and Classic WoW have.
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Jan 4, 2020 04:22
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I think the principles of the gameplay in Pantheon are supposed to be nostalgic themselves, and some people really do enjoy that kind of punishment. Myself included, and I've played many modern mmos and enjoyed them for what they were, but I just never feel a sense of investment in any character I've made. Whereas I always go back to classic EQ on p99 and even classic UO. And granted, some people enjoy getting smashed in the balls too, but still.
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Jan 4, 2020 04:49
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For me the nostalgia I enjoy with these games isnt revisiting old mechanics so much as it is old places and occasionally people. I really dig going back into EQ to group at places like Orc Highway or Frenzied Ghoul. Or maybe camping Hill Giants at that fort in the zone whose name I forgot but its between Lake of Ill Omen and The Overthere. Or countless other places. Theres no way in hell I would want to go into a new game with a new world with those same old horrible mechanics. I just dont have that kind of time any more. And while there certainly is a small group of people that just like having their cubes stomped by games in general I suspect a whole lot of the other nostalgia fans who flock to any game that raises the banner of "like EQ!!" are going to get bored and wander off pretty quickly when they discover only a time machine will let them experience the magic of having some jerk of a dervish cutthroat cast blind on them for the first time. Basically, if this releases itll be Wildstar 2.0 but for even older people.
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Jan 4, 2020 05:32
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I missed Wildstar because it was released during a time that I wasn’t doing much PC gaming. I wish I could see why it was such a disaster. I love stuff like that.
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Jan 4, 2020 13:07
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Ehud posted:I missed Wildstar because it was released during a time that I wasn’t doing much PC gaming. As with any dead MMO ever, there's a server emulator in the works. At least they're focusing on the one really good part of the game.
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Jan 4, 2020 13:37
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The time investment in EQ-like games is the thing that is the dealbreaker for me. If there was a way to capture that sense of consequences for mistakes and investment in my character/relationships in a two hour window per day, I would be stoked.
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Jan 4, 2020 13:42
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Ehud posted:I missed Wildstar because it was released during a time that I wasn’t doing much PC gaming. I think the main thing was that despite having relatively cool combat, it was too focused on the "HARDCORE" audience (it had a Burning-Crusade-esque attunement quest to unlock the raid, and then 40-man raids. No one really wants that poo poo anymore, at least enough people to maintain a big-budget mainstream MMO). The questing itself was also fairly bog standard collect 10 bear asses stuff.
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Jan 5, 2020 05:16
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FrostyPox posted:I think the main thing was that despite having relatively cool combat, it was too focused on the "HARDCORE" audience (it had a Burning-Crusade-esque attunement quest to unlock the raid, and then 40-man raids. No one really wants that poo poo anymore, at least enough people to maintain a big-budget mainstream MMO). The questing itself was also fairly bog standard collect 10 bear asses stuff. And it was hilariously buggy, meaning that you could be on step 22 of 23 in attuning and get bugged, only to be told you had to abandon the quest and start over.
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Jan 5, 2020 05:22
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Ehud posted:I missed Wildstar because it was released during a time that I wasn’t doing much PC gaming. It had some flashes of brilliance but was very, very poorly managed. It was fun for the first month or so per the norm with MMOs but you really didnt miss much. It was one of those games that was fun to watch fail from afar if only due to the hubris of the people running it. Of course many of the managers who ran the game into the ground failed upwards into management positions at place like Blizzard, so expect more dismal failures in the not so distance future.
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Jan 5, 2020 05:38
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Subjunctive posted:And it was hilariously buggy, meaning that you could be on step 22 of 23 in attuning and get bugged, only to be told you had to abandon the quest and start over. It was buggier and shitter than that. You could bug the attunement easily in a way that not only broke the quest but the only way of fixing it was to reroll. Also there were game breaking dungeon bugs we found during the FNF beta that made it into live.
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Jan 5, 2020 05:59
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Ehud posted:I missed Wildstar because it was released during a time that I wasn’t doing much PC gaming. I think the overall design was kinda flawed, it had really old-school mob grind quest design but sandwiched that together with action combat and bullet hell mechanics on bosses. My friends group of old grizzled Everquest players were down for the grind but not into the action fight choreography, whereas I imagine for people who valued the action combat it wasn't particularly thrilling to use it to grind 10 bear asses. It also had a pretty divisive art style. I liked it personally, but I found the UI kinda obnoxious, just running around the world I'd constantly be getting pop-up windows about quests and adventures, and the announcer guy would be going on about how I'm a cupcake, and it was just kinda lame.
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Jan 5, 2020 15:01
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Byolante posted:It was buggier and shitter than that. You could bug the attunement easily in a way that not only broke the quest but the only way of fixing it was to reroll. They very clearly had something wrong with their team structure and systems that made bug squashing take a really long time. This was made worse by the fact that the developer was absolutely committed to keeping its promise to have a quarterly content release schedule. So what happened was they would roll out new content that was full of even more bugs making the situation even worse. And the new content wasnt even good, the first content patch was just a reskin of the newbie area that was full of boring daily quests. Wildstar was a good example of how putting the "ideas guys" in charge of a major project like an MMO is just a bad idea. Projects like these really need competent manage that understands how to structure teams, workflow, etc as well as what you can accomplish with the assets you have available.
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Jan 5, 2020 15:58
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Chomposaur posted:It also had a pretty divisive art style. I liked it personally, but I found the UI kinda obnoxious, just running around the world I'd constantly be getting pop-up windows about quests and adventures, and the announcer guy would be going on about how I'm a cupcake, and it was just kinda lame. Yeah even if had been the perfectly designed mmo I wouldn't have played because cartoon sci-fi isn't interesting to me.
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Jan 5, 2020 17:09
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Wildstar was so badly managed that the president of the company announced a huge PvP feature (that barely anybody played because it required 80 people to queue for it, and having built guild forts) in an interview. The actual development team found out about that feature when the interview was published. Then there's Winner.gif, and how the lead raid designer was literally shadowing guilds' raid attempts in-game and patching bosses to counter winning strategies whenever they got beaten. When finally forced to tune down the lovely ~Hardest Raid~, he basically threw a tantrum when someone posted about having beaten it and posted this in their thread: 
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Jan 5, 2020 17:15
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Have you seen warplots?
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Jan 5, 2020 17:25
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CoffeeBooze posted:Have you seen warplots? Did anyone? Wasn't the whole problem with that being it was pvp Raid vs Raid preform and nobody wanted to put up with that much organizing to pvp when you could do any of the drop in stuff?
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Jan 5, 2020 18:05
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Wildstar's hardcore difficulty boner didn't just extend to raids. One concept the game had was "interrupt armor", which basically meant that multiple people needed to use their spell interrupt ability to actually interrupt something. Even your typical dungeon trash had this; a heal would have 1 armor and require two people in the party use their interrupts to stop it, and it'd heal for a lot if they failed to coordinate. I remember the first time I queued for the very first dungeon and after slowly making our way through the trash we barely cleared the first boss and then got to the second. The second boss had a massive attack which would stun everyone and kill or nearly kill them. That ability had 2 interrupt armor and so required 3 out of 5 people in the party have their interrupt skills equipped and coordinate to use them in relatively quick succession. If 3 people did not do that you'd probably all die and have to the boss over. I never saw the third boss. That sort of thing isn't hard for a coordinated bunch who know the game of course, but shockingly it turned out not every random group for the goddamn starter dungeon of the game is going to meet that criteria. There was also just a lot of other vaguely needless complexity: a lot of abilities that weren't really worth using but hard to evaluate as such, any loss of control effect (stun, disarm, etc) would have an accompanying QTE to break it which the devs used as an excuse to add annoying loss of control effects to everything you ever fought, as a healer you had to physically aim heals at your party which turned healing pve groups into a strange and frustrating pvp shooter, and so on. Overall there was just no one on the dev team that even considered that in a 1000+ hour ostensibly social game maybe people are going to just want to have a relaxing time causing explosions, beating things up and taking their stuff without needing to execute at 100% precision. E: Oh, huh, this discussion is going on in the Rise of the Fallen Pants thread? I didn't even realize when I posted earlier, thought I was in one of the generic ones. Leaving this overly lengthy reply and shutting up. Xerophyte fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jan 5, 2020 |
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Jan 5, 2020 20:31
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DeathSandwich posted:Did anyone? lol no. Which made that catch phrase being used to promote them all the more amusing.
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Jan 5, 2020 21:01
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Wildstar did eventually have its massive difficult curve scaled way back. Basically when it went free to play, but it was too late at that point. The damage had already been done. I actually enjoyed Wildstar a lot and am sad that the game was shut down. I never got to try the group content, or raids, all of that was eventually made accessible to everyone and was easy to clear, but there was just no one left to see it once it happened. I wish it could come back under another developer/publisher, free to play with a good cash shop that sellers cosmetics, pets, mounts, and housing items would be perfect. The PvP was also very good too, I liked that you could level up entirely on PvP and you got new level appropriate gear and weapons every 10 levels.
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Jan 5, 2020 23:42
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I wish World of Warcraft was really Warhammer Online every day except they had three factions instead of two.
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Jan 6, 2020 00:42
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Cithen posted:The time investment in EQ-like games is the thing that is the dealbreaker for me. If there was a way to capture that sense of consequences for mistakes and investment in my character/relationships in a two hour window per day, I would be stoked. I mean I totally get that, but you can also just play EQ for only two hours a day. That's actually probably a really healthy pace to play at, on p99 green currently everybody is racing to 50 and is going to have nothing to do for like the better part of a year until kunark comes out.
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Jan 6, 2020 02:27
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Givin posted:I wish World of Warcraft was really Warhammer Online every day except they had three factions instead of two. I played in the Goon WAR guild and it was pretty fun
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Jan 6, 2020 02:31
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Relayer posted:I mean I totally get that, but you can also just play EQ for only two hours a day. That's actually probably a really healthy pace to play at, on p99 green currently everybody is racing to 50 and is going to have nothing to do for like the better part of a year until kunark comes out. Can you even find a group to play with in two hours? Maybe its different on p99 but when I played EQ if you joined a group and left in an hour or so people would be kind of annoyed.
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Jan 6, 2020 02:48
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CoffeeBooze posted:Can you even find a group to play with in two hours? Maybe its different on p99 but when I played EQ if you joined a group and left in an hour or so people would be kind of annoyed. Sometimes no, but sometimes yes. That's why it's a good pace to play at. And there are lots of things to do to strengthen your character, like on a whim I decided to go camp the mob in befallen for the paw of opolla quest, fully expecting not to get it. I got there and there was a cleric camping it who had been there ten hours. He just happened to get it almost immediately after I got there, and then I took the camp over and got it literally on the 3rd spawn. Total time investment was about 50 minutes. But if you don't play you'll never fall rear end backward into such satisfying outcomes like that.
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Jan 6, 2020 03:39
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Givin posted:I wish World of Warcraft was really Warhammer Online every day except they had three factions instead of two.
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Jan 6, 2020 04:19
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Givin posted:I wish World of Warcraft was really Warhammer Online every day except they had three factions instead of two. I miss my Goblin Shaman every time I think of MMOs :/ Faction imbalance and Bright Wizard spam killed that game stone dead.
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Jan 6, 2020 15:08
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