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Vikar Jerome posted:Hows a japan studio, non-from, bloodborne 2 ps5 launch title sound. Because miyazaki wasnt lying. Sounds like what I was dreading. Wouldn't touch at launch and wait a few months for initial excitement to die down and get genuine impressions. Japan Studio ain't very good, imo. Then again the online component would probably be shut down after that time passed so idk.
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Jan 6, 2020 19:43
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fridge corn posted:Also I just started playing Days Gone and it seems like the most offensively bland and generic thing imaginable also the controls feel really bad and floaty. Crafting wheel? Ugh. It's boring and feels bad to play. if you don't like Deacon after an hour you won't love him after 50
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Jan 6, 2020 19:47
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Okay, so its about challenge. Its about dying multiple times. Lets accept that the game wouldnt be fun if you didnt experience that death mechanic enough. Lets say you died 500 times completing the game, and thats the developers intended experience, that you should die ~500 times and complete the game. Someone else doesnt have your reflexes, or your memory or pattern recognition or experience with the genre. I dont see how having a difficulty level for them, so that they die 500 times instead of 2000 times, makes the game weaker, or worse, or in any way detract from your experience. Hell, put in a harder difficulty level too, as some people were completing the game but only dying a handful of times, so put in a harder difficulty level so they die about 500 times too and get the intended experience. Not everyone starts from the same place, and the same amount of improvement from different starting points still leaves people on different skill levels. Allowing people to tune their experience for what they are capable of, and what they want to get out of it is literally a solved problem in videogames and has been for years, this is not some crazy new theory. Different difficultly levels allow people with different skill levels to all play the same game and all face a surmountable level of challenge. Of course a dev can choose not to do this, just like they can choose not to put in subtitles, or colour blind options or not allow you to adjust text size based on your TV, and so on and so forth. But these are all options that I personally want games to have. And if someone uses a difficulty level lower than the one you think they should use, so what? Literally why would you care? I routinely put subtitles on in games despite not being hard of hearing myself, is that also going to be a problem? If the game is good then once they hammer through it on Easy they can go through it again on Normal. Or my preference, have the difficulty adjustable on the fly so that if you realise 2 hours in that you would prefer it to be easier or harder you dont have to start over.
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Jan 6, 2020 19:52
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Bust Rodd posted:if you don't like Deacon after an hour you won't love him after 50 I dont care about liking the main character or not, I just want a fun and interesting game to play and this seems like neither
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Jan 6, 2020 20:00
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SiKboy posted:Okay, so its about challenge. Its about dying multiple times. Lets accept that the game wouldnt be fun if you didnt experience that death mechanic enough. Lets say you died 500 times completing the game, and thats the developers intended experience, that you should die ~500 times and complete the game. Someone else doesnt have your reflexes, or your memory or pattern recognition or experience with the genre. I dont see how having a difficulty level for them, so that they die 500 times instead of 2000 times, makes the game weaker, or worse, or in any way detract from your experience. Hell, put in a harder difficulty level too, as some people were completing the game but only dying a handful of times, so put in a harder difficulty level so they die about 500 times too and get the intended experience. i think we've kind of decided that its really a bad look to equate "generic difficulty of combat or puzzles" to "accessibility options for the disabled', because being bad at video games, or being old and having reduced reaction time isn't a disability that prevents you from playing the game.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:00
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Since the PS4 is all about recycling the same discussions over and over I'm just gonna paraphrase my previous take on Sekiro: I like it when games don't let you choose difficulty settings immediately because I don't have to guess which one is the suitable level for an enjoyable experience. Case example: Metal Gear Rising's Hard mode is generally accepted as the default while Nier: Automata's Hard mode is the Dante Must Die levels of hard. Sekiro has an actual hard mode only available in NG+ which is great way to test how you've improved. WaltherFeng fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 6, 2020 |
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Jan 6, 2020 20:03
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quote:If the game is good then once they hammer through it on Easy they can go through it again on Normal. This is pretty indicative of the source of contention about difficulty vs. accessibility
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Jan 6, 2020 20:04
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I know this is the PS4 thread but however... After bouncing off The Witcher 3 on PS4 after a few hours, I picked it up mega cheap on Switch over Christmas and holy hell this game is fantastic. I ramped the combat difficulty down (how relevant!) because it's not amazing and I just want the story. It's SO good. Being able to play it on my commute today was mind blowing.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:07
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Quantum of Phallus posted:I know this is the PS4 thread but however... I thought the gameplay was the best in The Witcher 1 tbh. It wasn't GOOD but it was quick and easy unless something spawned behind you and stunlocked you to death. It got jankier and more tedious in 2 then again in 3.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:12
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I'm a dork who loves Souls games for the ~cohesive experience~ of the uncompromising difficulty, obtuse mechanics, and the oppressive atmosphere. Slapping an artificial "easy mode" selection on top would kind of cheapen what makes the games special, but From could easily work some sort of in-universe difficulty options into the game. Let the firekeeper do some ritual that sacrifices the humanity of NPCs to make the world weaker & the player stronger but locks you out of certain 'good' endings or whatever. Just something beyond a basic "Easy / Hard / Chosen Undead" choice.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:13
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W3 combat is like a shittier Divinity or something. It's a great game but I can't believe anyone played it specifically for the combat unless they weren't aware of other, much better ARPG combat systems.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:13
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fridge corn posted:I dont care about liking the main character or not, I just want a fun and interesting game to play and this seems like neither Give it at least like 5-6 hours imo. The gameplay gets much better after the opening hours. Feels Villeneuve posted:W3 combat is like a shittier Divinity or something. It's a great game but I can't believe anyone played it specifically for the combat unless they weren't aware of other, much better ARPG combat systems. I like the combat so much that I get distracted just adventuring around getting into fights.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:16
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SchwarzeKrieg posted:I'm a dork who loves Souls games for the ~cohesive experience~ of the uncompromising difficulty, obtuse mechanics, and the oppressive atmosphere. Slapping an artificial "easy mode" selection on top would kind of cheapen what makes the games special, but From could easily work some sort of in-universe difficulty options into the game. Let the firekeeper do some ritual that sacrifices the humanity of NPCs to make the world weaker & the player stronger but locks you out of certain 'good' endings or whatever. Just something beyond a basic "Easy / Hard / Chosen Undead" choice. Bearer of the Curse Seek versity
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Jan 6, 2020 20:21
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So, personally I thought it was super lame that i had to replay 80% of the same content multiple times just to see the story in Nier Automata. I thought it was annoying and didn't respect my free time. Personally I would have liked the option to just skip any repeating content and get on with it, despite this being counter to the creators vision. I am certainly not alone on this as it's been a common complaint from many people. I'd like to ask those of you who are both fans of Neir Automata and think it's unfair that Fromsoft didn't include easy mode for Sekiro. Should Platinum have just added an option for those of us who felt that way about Nier to just skip all of the redundant stuff? Personally I wouldn't have requested that option even though it would have made the game better for me, because I know that isn't how it is supposed to be experienced. But surely you would support something like that if you think everyone being able to enjoy a game is more important than creative vision right?
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Jan 6, 2020 20:22
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Feels Villeneuve posted:W3 combat is like a shittier Divinity or something. It's a great game but I can't believe anyone played it specifically for the combat unless they weren't aware of other, much better ARPG combat systems. I dunno, felt good in a batman kinda way then again i've played witcher 1 and 2 to death and still have them installed so i probably have brain damage. I keep meaning to do a run through of w3 with the EE mod installed, that looks like it fixes alot of my lore problems with the combat abd prep at least, with regards to prep with 1.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:22
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Bust Rodd posted:i think we've kind of decided that its really a bad look to equate "generic difficulty of combat or puzzles" to "accessibility options for the disabled', because being bad at video games, or being old and having reduced reaction time isn't a disability that prevents you from playing the game. Who the gently caress is "we"
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Jan 6, 2020 20:23
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Kilometers Davis posted:Give it at least like 5-6 hours imo. The gameplay gets much better after the opening hours. Thank you
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Jan 6, 2020 20:25
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veni veni veni posted:So, personally I thought it was super lame that i had to replay 80% of the same content multiple times just to see the story in Nier Automata. I thought it was annoying and didn't respect my free time. Personally I would have liked the option to just skip any repeating content and get on with it, despite this being counter to the creators vision. I am certainly not alone on this as it's been a common complaint from many people. no because that is half-assing it. if you didn't like it, you didn't like it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'd rather have a game with a focused intent rather than one that's eager to please everyone, because too often that betrays a lack of confidence in your design. like that's really the crux of the thing for me. people who don't like the difficulty in FROMgames (or the repetition in Nier) aren't being kept from the game's experience- they're getting the game's experience, and it turns out they don't enjoy it, which is fine! no two people have the exact same tastes! (to put it another way, it's OK to not like a piece of media, but "this media should have been something different" rather than criticizing it on its own terms is useless criticism.)
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Jan 6, 2020 20:30
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If sekiro slowed time just enough that I had an extra full second to read the enemies attack that'd be such a big help for my dumb brain.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:33
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RBA Starblade posted:This is pretty indicative of the source of contention about difficulty vs. accessibility Makes sense to me. Beat the game on easy? Well now you know what to expect and going through it again should be a bit easier because it won't surprise you next time unless they started doing cheeky stuff on harder difficulties like adding additional mimics or enemies to surprise you. Plus, just because the option's there doesn't mean that everyone's gonna take it.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:37
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Bust Rodd posted:i think we've kind of decided that its really a bad look to equate "generic difficulty of combat or puzzles" to "accessibility options for the disabled', because being bad at video games, or being old and having reduced reaction time isn't a disability that prevents you from playing the game. I think you decided that because you realised arguing against accessibility options specifically for disabled people doesnt look great, but sure. That takes out what, colour blind options from what I said? Because as I mentioned, I use subtitles, I am not in any way hard of hearing. Options which are helpful for disabled people are also often useful for people who arent, which is great because it normalises their use and inclusion. If you dont want to include some disabled people in "people who would probably enjoy soulslikes games if they could tune the difficulty to allow themselves the same level of challenge that you get", its still leaves a shitload of people who would probably enjoy souls games if they could tune the difficulty to allow themselves the same level of challenge that you get and arent disabled, and still has you avoiding disputing any of the points I made.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:38
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Instead of "dragon rot" Sekiro should have had "dragon feels bad for you" that made players more powerful until they stopped dying quite so much. but instead Sekiro punished people for sucking with dragon rot (sounds worse than it was) and constantly losing XP and sen (xp at least banked at each point).
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Jan 6, 2020 20:46
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Feels Villeneuve posted:like that's really the crux of the thing for me. people who don't like the difficulty in FROMgames (or the repetition in Nier) aren't being kept from the game's experience- they're getting the game's experience, and it turns out they don't enjoy it, which is fine! no two people have the exact same tastes! What about someone who has been playing Sekiro and enjoying it but then reaches a point halfway through the game where they hit a wall and their progress comes to a complete standstill. Would their desire to then lower the difficulty of the game so that they can continue to enjoy it mean that they actually don't enjoy it, even though they've enjoyed it up to that point? Does everyone who ever summoned co-op help in Bloodborne actually hate the game, even if it's one of the best gaming experiences they've ever had?
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Jan 6, 2020 20:51
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SUNKOS posted:What about someone who has been playing Sekiro and enjoying it but then reaches a point halfway through the game where they hit a wall and their progress comes to a complete standstill. Would their desire to then lower the difficulty of the game so that they can continue to enjoy it mean that they actually don't enjoy it, even though they've enjoyed it up to that point? They could go play something else or maybe even do something that involves going outside? thats what I did
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Jan 6, 2020 20:55
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RareAcumen posted:Makes sense to me. Beat the game on easy? Well now you know what to expect and going through it again should be a bit easier because it won't surprise you next time unless they started doing cheeky stuff on harder difficulties like adding additional mimics or enemies to surprise you. You can see the rooftops of Anor Londo, the weak points on the Witch of Izalith, or recognize what the snow falling in the Crystal Caves means (I'm just going to keep using Dark Souls as an example because we have been, substitute any game with platforming) and know what you need to do and still not have the physical ability to move the sticks or use a keyboard in a way to navigate them successfully. That's what I mean by difficulty vs. accessibility. Doing more damage won't help someone who only has partial use of a hand or difficulty using their fingers. Having more health won't help. Infinite respawns won't help. Infinite health and zero knockback would, since you wouldn't have to block or roll - just try and move the stick in a way to stay on the balconies. I'm not saying don't include that as an option here, btw, though you'd probably then maintain separate multiplayer lobbies or block them from multiplayer, and now you're excluding them from something major the game is known for. Unless you're completely redesigning your game each difficulty level, someone will be left out. The goal, ideally, would be to minimize how many people you do with what you've got, but at some point you're inevitably going to have to stop. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jan 6, 2020 |
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Jan 6, 2020 20:55
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SUNKOS posted:What about someone who has been playing Sekiro and enjoying it but then reaches a point halfway through the game where they hit a wall and their progress comes to a complete standstill. Would their desire to then lower the difficulty of the game so that they can continue to enjoy it mean that they actually don't enjoy it, even though they've enjoyed it up to that point? Does everyone who ever summoned co-op help in Bloodborne actually hate the game, even if it's one of the best gaming experiences they've ever had? "Hitting a wall" normally means "got frustrated and gave up". Most everyone is capable of incremental improvement over time.
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Jan 6, 2020 20:56
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SUNKOS posted:What about someone who has been playing Sekiro and enjoying it but then reaches a point halfway through the game where they hit a wall and their progress comes to a complete standstill. Would their desire to then lower the difficulty of the game so that they can continue to enjoy it mean that they actually don't enjoy it, even though they've enjoyed it up to that point? Does everyone who ever summoned co-op help in Bloodborne actually hate the game, even if it's one of the best gaming experiences they've ever had? I think a good difficult game should be enjoyable to play even when you hit that ability wall and have to start specifically practicing/improving/dying/etc. If someone's enjoying a game until it gets too hard for them and it turns out they don't like playing and failing repeatedly to practice, then yeah, I think it's fair to say they don't like the game, because that incremental improvement loop is really core to games like that. I've had a bunch of games where I thought it was fine until it got too hard and I simply didn't like the game enough to put in the effort to master the gameplay (usually strategy/tactics games). "did someone who used an explicit gameplay mechanic actually hate the game" re: bloodborne is absurd
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Jan 6, 2020 20:58
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PantsBandit posted:"Hitting a wall" normally means "got frustrated and gave up". Most everyone is capable of incremental improvement over time. Not really, you will eventually get as good at a game as you're ever going to get. Most of the time you beat the game before that happens but not always, and then you recognize that further time investment is not going to be rewarded and either lower the difficulty or move on.
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Jan 6, 2020 21:00
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SUNKOS posted:What about someone who has been playing Sekiro and enjoying it but then reaches a point halfway through the game where they hit a wall and their progress comes to a complete standstill. Would their desire to then lower the difficulty of the game so that they can continue to enjoy it mean that they actually don't enjoy it, even though they've enjoyed it up to that point? Does everyone who ever summoned co-op help in Bloodborne actually hate the game, even if it's one of the best gaming experiences they've ever had? Yes to some extent, because that person is me. I still have a few bosses I never beat because I felt like I was hitting a brick wall and I'm much happier knowing that I have something to go back and conquer later. if there was an easy mode I'd have taken it and would have felt like I'd cheapened my experience and cheated myself. In fact I think a significant number of people would have taken the easy way out and regretted it, which is a major reason I think it wasn't included. People who co-op in DS or Bloodborne aren't compromising the experience because co-op is an intended part of it and there for people to use. Souls games are very malleable experiences that can be as hard or easy as you want them to be. Sekiro is not. It's a challenge for the player to overcome.
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Jan 6, 2020 21:13
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Imagine getting to the Blazing Bull and failing to make any progress against it no matter how hard you try day after day. Time keeps moving forward and great new games keep getting closer to releasing. Do you put in another 11 attempts against this boss or go pick up Metal Wolf Chaos instead?
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Jan 6, 2020 21:17
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RareAcumen posted:Imagine getting to the Blazing Bull and failing to make any progress against it no matter how hard you try day after day. The answer is Metal Wolf
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Jan 6, 2020 21:17
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i don't think either philosophy is wrong tbh, it just depends on the game and what the designer is trying to do. like i really enjoy rhythm games, but difficulty levels on those are really necessary, mainly because high-level play on those things is insane to the point where new players absolutely need an easier entry point before going to the 15* Extreme tracks after several years of playing
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Jan 6, 2020 21:22
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I'm garbage at Mega Man games, yet love the aesthetic of X. One day I played MMX on an emulator with Invincibility cheat on and cruised my way through the whole game. At the end I felt pretty bad and really did not enjoy my experience. Lesson learned. Same thing with Celeste, and that game has the cheats built in on purpose. Played through probably half the game with all the easy-mode cheats on, and really felt like I wasn't experiencing the game at all. Haven't gone back and I'm ok with that.
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Jan 6, 2020 21:26
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i don't think either philosophy is wrong tbh, it just depends on the game and what the designer is trying to do. https://twitter.com/SevereniTM/status/1200925382486241280
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Jan 6, 2020 21:30
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i tapped out of dead cells after ~20 hours of struggling to get past 2BC that was my wall
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Jan 6, 2020 21:33
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Oxxidation posted:i tapped out of dead cells after ~20 hours of struggling to get past 2BC drat man, 1BC was my wall. Love that game though!
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Jan 6, 2020 21:35
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 Oxxidation posted:i tapped out of dead cells after ~20 hours of struggling to get past 2BC Dead Cells is so gear based after a certain point any difficulty just feels based off of how god your poo poo is.
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Jan 6, 2020 21:35
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i don't think there was a better genre than rhythm games for that feeling of seeing high level play and going "this is literally impossible" and then actually improving after a few months to the point where it at least seemed feasible I don't do the "iterate/improve" thing with many genres but it feels so good for RGs for me
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Jan 6, 2020 21:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6LoC9KUVtI
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Jan 6, 2020 21:41
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i don't think there was a better genre than rhythm games for that feeling of seeing high level play and going "this is literally impossible" and then actually improving after a few months to the point where it at least seemed feasible This is why I’ve been playing instruments for most of my life tbh Like not even being smug as I love rhythm games, it’s the same flow and improvement loop and it owwwwns I wish there were more solid rhythm games around
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Jan 6, 2020 21:48
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