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They pissed about with it for the owen smith election because they wanted to try and get rid of corbyn.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:22
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baka kaba posted:but brexit was a huge issue, and so was the successful character assassination. meanwhile the policies were popular, just like they were in 2017 when Labour had its biggest success in decades, it's just Labour voters didn't turn out for them this time because, see column A i agree with basically all this apart from I think quote:We've already seen that "corbynism" has the potential to resonate with people, we know it has potential to resonate with people like us, but the only datapoint on whether it resonated with anyone else is 2017. and there are two ways to look at 2017: a) the one I always favoured is the corbyny one where we overcame a terrible starting point from 2015 and a hostile press for a huge surge in the vote. with this version we can assume continuity corbynism without brexit around(!) and a not so thoroughly assassinated candidate can still win. b) but in this long dark twilight of the soul or whatever i don't think i can debunk the anti-corbyn version either, where we actually just swung and missed at a very, very easy target running the worst campaign ever. it was a good swing, but it was still a miss that could have hit. and the next time we ran into a campaign that was well run (despite having an equally poo poo campaigner as candidate) we got annihilated. if b) is true then we were wrong about how successful this can be as an electoral strategy and 2019 was actually a more serious rebuke. again i'm not really talking about the policies, (though actually i would like a modern left wing economic platform this time round), we know the policies were good and we know people want them, but the strategy trying to get people to support us to deliver them. also the candidate, corbyn does seem to be very personally unpopular despite what we thought
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Jan 7, 2020 18:23
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Populous The Beginning slapped hard
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Jan 7, 2020 18:42
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Archaeology Hat posted:Tbf utterly capitulating to the EU is probably the safest way to do Brexit at this point from a ‘the economy continues to function’ POV Hilariously enough I'm not sure even that is sufficient. Johnson is planning to ask for a deal that includes goods but not services, and I don't think EU will try to impose a more comprehensive deal on him
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Jan 7, 2020 18:48
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Communist Thoughts posted:imo part of the reason that response in 2017, that our military adventures were causing these attacks and making us less safe, worked so much was its kinda a rare left nationalist argument. its not in the national interest or that of our citizens to keep getting involved in these struggles abroad. There's a difference between nationalism and the national interest. In fact they're usually diametric opposites.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:51
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Ms Adequate posted:Populous The Beginning slapped hard hell yeah, that was the first pc game i bought, that and alpha centauri shame about godus *looks in steam library* 38 hours??? what the hell
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Jan 7, 2020 19:07
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jaete posted:Hilariously enough I'm not sure even that is sufficient. Johnson is planning to ask for a deal that includes goods but not services, and I don't think EU will try to impose a more comprehensive deal on him The alternative is that he's going to continue to ask the eu for the impossible and run out the clock into no-deal territory. I'm personally hoping he is lovely in the former rather than the latter sense.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:08
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Communist Thoughts posted:hell yeah, that was the first pc game i bought, that and alpha centauri
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Jan 7, 2020 19:12
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Julio Cruz posted:and? how about we attack the guy for being a raging loving sociopath rather than because he likes wearing a shirt without a tie The question was "what's arrogant about clothes". I submit that thinking everyone wants to see your arse on national television, or just not giving a poo poo about it, is that.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:17
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Dabir posted:The question was "what's arrogant about clothes". I submit that thinking everyone wants to see your arse on national television, or just not giving a poo poo about it, is that. ah right, presumably you complain when the female anchor isn't wearing enough makeup or showing enough cleavage for your taste too?
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Jan 7, 2020 19:23
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The male gaze of the eternal cummings.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:36
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Julio Cruz posted:ah right, presumably you complain when the female anchor isn't wearing enough makeup or showing enough cleavage for your taste too? is there a point to arguing with you or do you just come out with this drivel all the time
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Jan 7, 2020 19:38
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Dabir posted:is there a point to arguing with you or do you just come out with this drivel all the time I mean you're the one that thinks that wearing whatever clothes you like is somehow arrogant and also that that's the most important thing we should be criticising Cummings for
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Jan 7, 2020 19:46
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RockyB posted:The Indian Rebellion of 1857 had diverse political, economic, military, religious and social causes. They were RUMOURED to be made with those fats. Iirc they weren't actually.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:52
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Communist Thoughts posted:i agree with basically all this apart from I think The thing is that Mays campaign (13,636,684) was garbage in the end but it was equally appealling garbage as Johnsons (13,966,451) given the polarisation we've seen. The difference between 2017 and 2019 is unlikely to be found in analysing the differences in the Tory campaign and instead needs to think about how Labour connected and convinced the public in 2017 (12,878,460) and not 2019 (10,265,912) while still seeing decent gains in both from 2015 (9,347,273). I've got all the time in the world for strategic discussion about how to encourage leftwing consciousness and maintain it in the UK translating into votes in key areas because that's important but despite the scale of the losses there really doesn't seem to be much need for soul searching except for learning why Labour didn't see 2019 coming and building better defences next time around. Failures in party accountability like open selection seem a major issue because if rightwing MPs had not been the candidate then the strategy to push for lots of gains from Tory seats while risking the seats already held in order to rebalance the PLP wouldn't have been necessary, same with shoving everything in the manifesto as the back up plan to get those same MPs to have to vote for it when a slimmer focus might have been easier to get out there (although that's also a strategic failure to not see how the social media and political landscape had changed and the policy hits wouldn't have the same impact). Corbyn was too soft on defending himself against attacks and not hard enough on getting the MPs in line which didn't help but there also wasn't a leftwing media community to help him out (see RLBs announcement in the Tribune, not the Guardian as a point for them learning).
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Jan 7, 2020 19:59
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namesake posted:The thing is that Mays campaign (13,636,684) was garbage in the end but it was equally appealling garbage as Johnsons (13,966,451) given the polarisation we've seen. The difference between 2017 and 2019 is unlikely to be found in analysing the differences in the Tory campaign and instead needs to think about how Labour connected and convinced the public in 2017 (12,878,460) and not 2019 (10,265,912) while still seeing decent gains in both from 2015 (9,347,273). I've got all the time in the world for strategic discussion about how to encourage leftwing consciousness and maintain it in the UK translating into votes in key areas because that's important but despite the scale of the losses there really doesn't seem to be much need for soul searching except for learning why Labour didn't see 2019 coming and building better defences next time around. Failures in party accountability like open selection seem a major issue because if rightwing MPs had not been the candidate then the strategy to push for lots of gains from Tory seats while risking the seats already held in order to rebalance the PLP wouldn't have been necessary, same with shoving everything in the manifesto as the back up plan to get those same MPs to have to vote for it when a slimmer focus might have been easier to get out there (although that's also a strategic failure to not see how the social media and political landscape had changed and the policy hits wouldn't have the same impact). Corbyn was too soft on defending himself against attacks and not hard enough on getting the MPs in line which didn't help but there also wasn't a leftwing media community to help him out (see RLBs announcement in the Tribune, not the Guardian as a point for them learning). Is it plausible that the Tory campaign was in fact better, but it was better at driving away Labour voters than attracting Tory ones? It was a hugely smeary campaign, and was much more about the flaws of COrbyn's Labour than the benefits of a Johnson government. Campaigns don't just affect the voters for that party...
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Jan 7, 2020 20:02
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Communist Thoughts posted:we know it has potential to resonate with people like us, but the only datapoint on whether it resonated with anyone else is 2017. Communist Thoughts posted:again i'm not really talking about the policies, (though actually i would like a modern left wing economic platform this time round), we know the policies were good and we know people want them, but the strategy trying to get people to support us to deliver them. also the candidate, corbyn does seem to be very personally unpopular despite what we thought well just to be clear, when I say "resonated" I mean popular or with support/approval, not "inspire people to vote Labour" which I think is kind of a different thing. Things like voter apathy can undermine even the best pitch, good and popular policies would hopefully make people want to vote but it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Remember, that was part of the tory strategy this time - make people believe both sides were just the same, everyone's lying, you're fed up, vote for us to get politics out of your life, etc Corbyn was unpopular, yeah, but the same was true in 2017 - he was the same candidate in 2019, but things changed, and that's definitely what we have to learn from Communist Thoughts posted:a) the one I always favoured is the corbyny one where we overcame a terrible starting point from 2015 and a hostile press for a huge surge in the vote. with this version we can assume continuity corbynism without brexit around(!) and a not so thoroughly assassinated candidate can still win. remember that the 2017 result was a huge shock to everyone, including the tories. It was a phenomenal gain, even if we didn't manage to win, and the political establishment take up to that point was that May was gonna increase her majority. The narrative of "wow such bad campaign very fail candidate" was established after the fact, trying to retcon May as a rogue element who sabotaged everything while the tories wrung their hands and said "no how can this be happening!!!" and allowed Corbyn to stumble his way to inevitable success. Nobody believed this before the exit poll came in *Stephen Whatshisface face* I'm not saying May ran a great campaign or that everyone had a good idea of what's happening, but whatever Corbyn did, the goalposts were always immediately shifted. There was no consistent, objective measure of how well he was doing, so you have to be careful because literally any leftist leader (any Labour leader, to some degree) will face the exact same criticism and impossible standards from the people who want you to fail. The important thing is there's work to be done, to create the conditions where enough people want to vote Labour and not vote for the Tories. And conditions are constantly shifting, it's an uphill battle, it's not a nice clean game where you can puzzle out the winning move. You just have to keep doing your best, y'know?
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Jan 7, 2020 20:02
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thespaceinvader posted:Is it plausible that the Tory campaign was in fact better, but it was better at driving away Labour voters than attracting Tory ones? It was a hugely smeary campaign, and was much more about the flaws of COrbyn's Labour than the benefits of a Johnson government. Campaigns don't just affect the voters for that party... Or converting tories to libs and labour to tories.
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Jan 7, 2020 20:06
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It was apparently the same team for the tories as the aussie liberals, using the same tactic of "illegally overspend by a completely unprecedented amount on smearing the opposition with blatant microtargeted libel, knowing its not possible to get caught" the only point to examining tory success is to work out who you need to put on a list
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Jan 7, 2020 20:10
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thespaceinvader posted:Is it plausible that the Tory campaign was in fact better, but it was better at driving away Labour voters than attracting Tory ones? It was a hugely smeary campaign, and was much more about the flaws of COrbyn's Labour than the benefits of a Johnson government. Campaigns don't just affect the voters for that party... Yes but I think it's reasonable to expect to be attacked by the opposite party during an election at extreme levels (and any left threat to be attacked viciously by the state and bourgeoisie) and their attack lines weren't new weapons being deployed, they could have been countered and rebuffed well before the election (given an aggressive strategy and the necessary communication networks already in place and connected with the public). There was no surprises this election except the result which actually probably added to some of the apathy of Labour voters who didn't get the radicalism feeling again but obviously you can't rely on surprises to win you an election.
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Jan 7, 2020 20:10
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namesake posted:Yes but I think it's reasonable to expect to be attacked by the opposite party during an election at extreme levels (and any left threat to be attacked viciously by the state and bourgeoisie) and their attack lines weren't new weapons being deployed, they could have been countered and rebuffed well before the election (given an aggressive strategy and the necessary communication networks already in place and connected with the public). There was no surprises this election except the result which actually probably added to some of the apathy of Labour voters who didn't get the radicalism feeling again but obviously you can't rely on surprises to win you an election. How? What are the necessary communication entwroks when the entire communication establishment is dedicated to communication against you?
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Jan 7, 2020 20:16
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Communist Thoughts posted:hell yeah, that was the first pc game i bought, that and alpha centauri God drat, you're meant to start your videogaming career with mediocre entries so you have somewhere to work your way up to, not start with the highest bars possible
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Jan 7, 2020 20:32
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thespaceinvader posted:How? Leftwing media does exist, it's just extremely small compared to mainstream media so the answer is to grow it. There's a co-operative news organisation in Bristol called the Bristol Cable which does independent investigative journalism and I imagine that model could be set up in most UK cities with people willing to dedicate time to set up a funding network. There's Breadtube and podcasts which are trying to produce content which doesn't just follow the established media lines in ways that people will absorb. More important that just having information networks is the environments that people find themselves in and how it shapes their perspective. Isolated people in oppressive situations learn to accept what they are given and to hope is to hurt so they don't hope at all. Positive community spaces which welcome others need to be expanded and organisations which include and mobilise their members show them that they can work collectively for better things and their political outlook becomes more welcoming and more positive as a result so that needs to be happening everywhere.
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Jan 7, 2020 20:35
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:God drat, you're meant to start your videogaming career with mediocre entries so you have somewhere to work your way up to, not start with the highest bars possible Not counting the mega drive my first videogame was a weird charity compilation for the ps1 that had broken sword, myst and... road rash??
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Jan 7, 2020 20:38
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ThomasPaine posted:Not counting the mega drive my first videogame was a weird charity compilation for the ps1 that had broken sword, myst and... road rash?? Help! I've got a copy of this somewhere, not sure who it was Helping, mind.
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Jan 7, 2020 20:42
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Meanwhile over in Ireland, the Government has just announced that the commemoration planned for the Royal Irish Constabulary/Dublin Metropolitan Police service has been cancelled due to public backlash. I think their problem with this was when people said "isn't this offensive?" Your response shouldn't be "Why are you being offended over this?" Of course when asked "isn't this glorify the Black and Tans?" The Government's response shouldn't have been "We are not commemorating the Black and Tans. Just the RIC." Which to explain, the Black and Tans was the nickname given to the RIC's Special Reserve squad. It's the equivalent of saying "we aren't hosting a celebration to the Armed Response Unit. We are celebrating the Police Force." Bad mismanagement of this incident by the Irish Government.
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Jan 7, 2020 20:46
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The Question IRL posted:Meanwhile over in Ireland, the Government has just announced that the commemoration planned for the Royal Irish Constabulary/Dublin Metropolitan Police service has been cancelled due to public backlash. I'm really grateful to the Irish government for giving us some fun, light news at this time. Like being Irish politicians and apparently not knowing what the Black & Tans were.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:02
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https://twitter.com/iresimpsonsfans/status/1214611507469783041
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Jan 7, 2020 21:04
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Come out ye Black and Tans, there's a parade for you my man We regret to misinform you; it's been cancelled. ThomasPaine posted:Not counting the mega drive My first videogames were when my da bought an Atari 800XL and two disk drives from a guy at a car boot, and it came with a box of the exact sort of software that you'd expect a guy selling an Atari and two disk drives at a car boot to have. I think there was Mr Do and Centipede and Gumball and text adventures a bunch others that I can barely remember and couldn't figure out for the life of me how to play because they were all on Verbatim floppy disks with handwritten labels and no manuals.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:13
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Why hasn't Johnson been sighted today, is he Donald Orange after his two weeks in Mustique? Normally they make a big song and dance with photos etc at the first cabinet of a parliamentary session
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Jan 7, 2020 21:17
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He's hid like he did after he won the Brexit vote and when he was asked for an interview.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:17
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Jose posted:find me a better game theme song than cannon fodder It is the game theme song most relevant to British society. But best is a tough sell.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:18
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Ms Adequate posted:Populous The Beginning slapped hard Genuinely warmed by the enthusiasm for P:TB in this thread. Most people have never even heard of it. Communist Thoughts posted:hell yeah, that was the first pc game i bought, that and alpha centauri I’ve somehow managed to accumulate 242 hours in Imperator: Rome despite being that game’s arch-hater lol. [would not recommend this game] feedmegin posted:They were RUMOURED to be made with those fats. Iirc they weren't actually. Yeah, that’s my understanding too. But it wasn’t an accident that the rumours were believed. While early on the Brits were generally content to let heathens be heathens so long as they snapped to and paid their taxes on time, by the 19th century Evangelical thought was starting to take hold and the unChristian nature of India began to be seen as a problem to be solved. Missionaries were allowed into the country and the governor generals started to legislate against certain Hindu religious practices. Hinduism began to be seen as barbaric, rather than merely exotic, and the Hindus, unsurprisingly, picked up on that. It got worse in the mid-century, with the annexation of Sindh (generally held to be criminal even by the British), and especially Oudh, which was perceived as a betrayal of an exceptionally loyal and noble vassal. (We claimed that they had been mistreating their subjects; nobody gave a gently caress). Dalhousie introduces the doctrine of lapse, by which we claimed the right to annex any princely state whose monarch died without a legitimate heir, which pissed everyone off- not least because what constitutes a “legitimate” heir was determined on very narrow and very British terms, and did not recognise the common native practice of adopting heirs. The invasion of Afghanistan was also a complete disaster (and a completely pointless one- anyone who genuinely thought Russia would be able to manage an overland invasion of India across Central Asia and the Kush was our of their goddamn mind), and it punctured the British aura of military invincibility. Worse, it meant forcing a bunch of high-caste soldiers to cross the Indus, violating a major taboo and causing the soldiers to become outcaste. The company refused to pay for the (costly) caste reinstatement ceremonies. So by the time the pig fat cartridge rumours rolled around the Indians were 100% convinced that the British had no respect for them or their traditions- and they were right.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:23
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Julio Cruz posted:I mean you're the one that thinks that wearing whatever clothes you like is somehow arrogant ok so you're just projecting whatever opinions you feel like disagreeing with onto the nesrest available target, gotcha
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Jan 7, 2020 21:32
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Dabir posted:ok so you're just projecting whatever opinions you feel like disagreeing with onto the nesrest available target, gotcha Dabir posted:The question was "what's arrogant about clothes". I submit that thinking everyone wants to see your arse on national television, or just not giving a poo poo about it, is that. yeah I can clearly see how you're not at all someone who thinks wearing whatever you like is arrogant must be just me projecting
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Jan 7, 2020 21:35
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IMO cummings appearance. it's the same as Mays cough at the tory conference a couple years ago, it's not a topic worth discussing when they are responsible for actual horrors we should focus on. Or when everyone got distracted by pig-gate instead of th- oh wait, Cameron def hosed a pig.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:40
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Julio Cruz posted:yeah I can clearly see how you're not at all someone who thinks wearing whatever you like is arrogant now do the one where I'm a sexist pig who thinks all female newsreaders should have their tits out
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Jan 7, 2020 21:41
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baka kaba posted:Nobody believed this before the exit poll came in *Stephen Whatshisface face* Talking of which I wonder why he isn't running. He was clearly gearing up for it in 2017.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:43
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Missionaries were allowed into the country and the governor generals started to legislate against certain Hindu religious practices. I mean if you're thinking of suttee I'm not sure I disagree with them.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:45
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Dabir posted:now do the one where I'm a sexist pig who thinks all female newsreaders should have their tits out I can do the one where you think that people on TV should all dress according to how you think they should we wouldn't want to have anyone looking scruffy or, quote, "not giving a poo poo about" how they look like you know the group of people who get that kind of poo poo the most, right
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Jan 7, 2020 21:51
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