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What if different people enjoy somewhat different aspects of the same game?
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Jan 7, 2020 19:21
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The thing that is in question is more or less how you are deciding if the power levels are equal. Cock flux hero says it should be based on how the character compares to the content and doesn't care what other classes or players have going on because each class stands on it's own Phigs is saying you have to consider what other classes have going on because if something seems better it devalues the perceived weaker thing Or that's how I'm reading it ::Edit to be clearer:: pyrofreak421 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 19:22
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ItBreathes posted:You very much appeared to be arguing that playing in any way but the most optimal one possible was intrinsically unenjoyable, so I very much doubt cock hero flux was arguing against your stated thesis as it wasn't supported by or even alluded to by the things you were saying. I mean, reaching clarity between sides is part of debate. We all interpret things differently and that's a lot of what makes debate and consensus hard.  pyrofreak421 posted:Cock flux hero says it should be based on how the character compares to the content and doesn't care what other classes or players have going on because each class stands on it's own This is my position/interpretation as well. As for how you figure out balance that's a more difficult problem and a whole area of study on its own really.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:32
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Don't want to put words in cfh's mouth, but there's only one set of content, for characters to be of equal power they have to be compared to each other, there's no way to measure equivalence otherwise. The question I think cfh was responding to, the one that iirc started the whole conversation was if it was OK to characters to not be of equal power level to begin with, to which cfh (and I) respond sure, as long as they're at all capable of dealing with the content. Having the harder options be labeled is a good thing, but I can't think of a roguelike that doesn't - some grey out unadvisable race-class combinations, some just don't let you select them, Sil even labels their races normal, hard, and harder. Games that don't explicitly stated relative power levels on the character select screen often have it in the documentation. CRPGs have more of an issue with it where you can make bad builds and there are too many options for the game to explicitly say 'don't do this', but since their content is all hand crafted the player has less opportunities to overcome it through system mastery.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:37
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Motherfucker posted:Kiiiind've a facile element to pay attention too but I really like that rat behavior. If they kept retreating when their numbers dwindle and could only breed while out of sight in some way they could actually be a good way to ratchet up pressure. Thanks, that is my perhaps my favorite part of the game so far. I may make it so scripted behaviours have a flag for if they are currently visible so they only breed in darkness. The rats are quite fun, I put them as a summon just to test out some stuff (make sure they are replicating correctly), and it can end up with rat wars, where both sides of rats clash, kill most of each other, and then the remaining rats on both sides scatter and summon a new horde. I'll probably make the Summon Rats teachable by a really secret hidden master, in the final game. ZearothK posted:Where can I wishlist this. Thanks, hopefully steam one day. I can only work on this part time after work, so I imagine I've got about 2 years left before it is finished up.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:39
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ItBreathes posted:CRPGs have more of an issue with it where you can make bad builds and there are too many options for the game to explicitly say 'don't do this', but since their content is all hand crafted the player has less opportunities to overcome it through system mastery. Yep. There is a huge difference between a game you only want to play once and a game you are going to play dozens or hundreds of times.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:51
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Tourist is presented to the player as a joke/challenge class. Any reasonable player should be able to get an immediate read on that information with even a superficial inspection, and they know what they're getting into. There's definitely a possibility of some players experiencing frustration if their early favourite class is noticeably weaker than the others when it's presented as just another normally viable choice, even if winning with it is doable by an expert. Maybe that class has unique looking gameplay and that might be the reason the player bought the game in first place. Whether the designer cares about balancing the classes against each other or not, the player can feel that kind of envy.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:54
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ItBreathes posted:Don't want to put words in cfh's mouth, but there's only one set of content, for characters to be of equal power they have to be compared to each other, there's no way to measure equivalence otherwise. The question I think cfh was responding to, the one that iirc started the whole conversation was if it was OK to characters to not be of equal power level to begin with, to which cfh (and I) respond sure, as long as they're at all capable of dealing with the content. I can see that's where you came in and we don't seem to disagree on the subject itself, but I point to the beginning of this argument coming from the discussion of DCSS and cock hero flux complaining about the devs removing things in successive patches. Their position being that the devs should not remove things for reasons of balance or removing boring-but-optimal options because none of that matters. They can correct me if I'm wrong though.
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Jan 7, 2020 19:55
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cock hero flux posted:if it took you 34 attempts then it's not a viable build and if your friend was also stuck on a boss for 50 attempts you would both just conclude that the game was bullshit
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Jan 7, 2020 20:10
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Thirsty Dog posted:It's more like if the game is a slog because you're playing something that's just flat out less powerful then it's less fun. cock hero flux has made that point several times already, though!
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Jan 7, 2020 21:38
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palecur posted:cock hero flux has made that point several times already, though! Honestly, I've skipped over most of the spittle flecked ranting of the last few pages. People need to tone it down a notch.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:53
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It hasn't really been that bad by forum standards. If anything the posts complaining about the discussion are more annoying than the discussion itself. They're certainly less interesting to read.
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Jan 7, 2020 21:58
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Mzbundifund posted:It hasn't really been that bad by forum standards. Seconded; it's been pretty tame, other than the frustration engendered by watching people repeatedly talk past each other.
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Jan 7, 2020 22:06
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Phigs posted:I can see that's where you came in and we don't seem to disagree on the subject itself, but I point to the beginning of this argument coming from the discussion of DCSS and cock hero flux complaining about the devs removing things in successive patches. Their position being that the devs should not remove things for reasons of balance or removing boring-but-optimal options because none of that matters. They can correct me if I'm wrong though. While they're connected I feel like the point of this argument isn't actually a direct segue from my wild-eyed frothing about the DCSS dev policy, that's it's own separate meltdown that happens to be on a similar topic but also includes other highlights like "the crawl devs have no consideration for the concept of flavour and won't make even the slightest effort to preserve it even if it's entirely possible for them to realize their misguided vision without actually killing the flavour". This is still pretty close to accurate, though. IronicDongz posted:I have absolutely been stuck on (possible)bosses in videogames for more than 50 attempts, and that does not mean it's bullshit true but in that case I feel like you having a friend who did it faster than you also would not detract from your enjoyment(unless he was unbearably smug about it but that's not really the game's fault) pyrofreak421 posted:Cock flux hero says it should be based on how the character compares to the content and doesn't care what other classes or players have going on because each class stands on it's own yes this is about right
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Jan 7, 2020 22:06
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Mzbundifund posted:It hasn't really been that bad by forum standards. If anything the posts complaining about the discussion are more annoying than the discussion itself. They're certainly less interesting to read. This thread has almost always been better than the rest of the forum as a whole, and the complaints have been few in number regardless. People are being kinda dickish and need to wind their necks in a bit.
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Jan 7, 2020 22:34
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it's less about hostility and more that at this point the convo could probably fill its own thread
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Jan 7, 2020 22:47
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Have you ever thought about how... about how life is actually like the only real actual roguelike?
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Jan 8, 2020 02:59
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Life is real time, has an absolutely ludicrous degree of metaprogression from previous characters, and the class balance is atrocious.
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Jan 8, 2020 05:47
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so much grinding
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Jan 8, 2020 05:50
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Ciaphas posted:Speaking of Invisible Inc., anyone have a "here's how to not completely gently caress up" guide they'd recommend? It was all rather overwhelming last time I tried to play it, wiping out about 2 missions in I should record a video to get the micro-tactical stuff that I won't think to write down (I have one on my YT but I was waaay worse when I recorded it), but here's some top dome stuff that got me through expert plus You should start missions fanning out in a sort of loose cloud - there's no great formula on the balance to strike between keeping each other in saving range and covering ground, so just start focusing on avoiding the extremes of {buddies tethered together} and {if this person is spotted, they're doomed}. Try to get a sense of where you are in the level in terms of center of mass - this is a skill you'll just learn over time as you understand what kind of stuff the level gen makes. Then, have whoever is on an end clean up their end so you can move your whole unit to the other side. Pinning is insanely important, and you'll use it multiple times each map. When you knock out a guard, consider - am I near an edge, and fine to just finish my business and leave before this guard wakes up? Or is this close enough to center I'll have to deal with them again? A very common pattern is something like: Agent A and B are fanning out, close enough that they're each others rescues. A finds a dead end with a safe, B finds a way in to further riches. B encounters a guard and knocks them out. Since B is closer to unexplored stuff, they continue pushing on, while A pins the guard B knocked out until B clears out their area, dragging the guard to a spot that balances A being closer to where they're going next with the guard being irrelevant when they wake up. As B is coming back, A sets off to explore a new area on the turn when B can take over the pin. Then B leaves and the guard wakes up, defending a wing that's now clean. There's a ton of other ways it can go but that's a common example that shows you the kind of things to think about. Remember that sprinting exists. Especially remember it when you're on pin duty - oftentimes pin duty is synonymous with "no one is in earshot" (watch out for levels with sound bugs though!), so you can sprint-drag and move the guard even further. As you get to more advanced days, item juggling is *critically* important, maybe the biggest differentiator of being good enough for Expert vs. Expert+. I've had one Storm Gun get six kills from four shooters before. I've revived someone with a Med-Gel that was 25 tiles away at the start of the turn. I've had someone swing 4 disruptors in 4 turns. Whenever you disrupt someone, you should always stop and ask critically - should the person who just disrupted have the burn-out disruptor, or is it time to switch it with someone else's so they can disrupt again next turn? It's pretty common to end up with 2 agents who are superior frontliners and two agents who roll as their supports - it makes a giant different when the frontliner disrupts on overwatch, and the support uses their movement to roll up and say "okay boss, I got the pin, here's a fresh disruptor, and you can spend all of your movement going forward know that you're able to disrupt again if there's another person up there." The other important thing to understand about item juggling is that it means one Med Gel and one Charge Pack is usually fine. It's surprisingly easy to get things in the right hands when you need to. Remember that you're going to find sick loot that requires a character to be high level with a skill to use it - make sure you're spending money ensuring that if you get Paralyzer IV or something, you can actually do something with it. Don't blow it all on toys; make sure you develop your agents enough that you can actually get quick value from surprise windfalls. Don't loot a guards credits until you're sure all agents with higher Anarchy are never gonna get a chance to pass the body. On Day 1 you should expect to crack every safe or every safe but one (and that one better be like, rear end end of the level in a 2 camera room kinda thing); play more aggressively if this seems impossible to you. Remember, being spotted is not a huge deal if you don't go down. On latter days, sometimes there will be those situations where you just flat out can't get those last 1-2 safes. That's fine, but make sure you're going hard enough early that you have a sense of what's actually doable. To the above, getting an early tool to help with firewalls (either another program or a buster chip) is quite important and should be a huge early priority. Also getting a spare disruptor because getting more agents is top priority and they don't start with one. It's actually pretty rare you need to hack the power stations for barriers, since you can drag a guards body through to disable em. That's usually enough. Getting guards attention deliberately with sprinting and door shenanigans can be a huge help; don't sleep on it as an option. All I can think of for now but I'm sure there's plenty more tricks so feel free to ask any question. Invisible Inc rules! It was my #3 game of the decade behind only Disco Elysium and Through the Ages. hito fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jan 8, 2020 |
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Jan 8, 2020 05:51
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palecur posted:This is objectively incorrect, hope this helps. Like, the idea that someone out there is moving 60% faster or clearing a boss on the first try that took me a dozen deaths somehow affects my own enjoyment is bizarre and incomprehensible. Objectively incorrect is some pretty strong language here. It is super duper common for people to feel super nettled that their chosen/preferred playstyle is notably inferior to other play options, even in pretty much completely singleplayer experiences. An example that immediately comes to mind is friends of mine getting really annoyed that their preferred Monster Hunter World weapons had way shittier kill times than other weapons they didn't like as much at the time, and that game is about as singleplayer as it gets and is all about repetition and incremental improvement.
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Jan 8, 2020 11:51
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cock hero flux posted:My argument is that in a singleplayer game balancing classes against each other is pointless. Everything must be balanced against its opponents. In a multiplayer game, your opponents are other players and thus the classes must be balanced against each other because those classes are the opponents. In a singleplayer game, they aren't: the AI is your opponent. Thus, every class must be balanced against the AI, not against the other classes. Balance against the other classes is completely pointless. It's funny that this argument stemmed from DCSS because the dev team balances on the assumption that everybody is simultaneously every playstyle and has access to all abilities, instead of being locked into a specific playstyle. Thus, they are always just balancing against opponents and not whether one playstyle is better/worse than another. Species are basically the only place where "class balancing" occurs and is usually rarely done (to be fair, that balancing when it does occur is also usually the most controversial when they decide to remove a thing due to it being bland/too similar and players loved it for flavor reasons). Backgrounds are meant to be more like bundles of starting equipment that you should abandon if the game is dropping loot or giving you early god altars that tell you to go in a different direction for better survival. Anything else in game is assumed to be a part of any character's toolset. Whether that's a good way to design the game, when many people play a background as if they are exclusively that role and do not branch out at all, is another question.
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Jan 8, 2020 13:23
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hito posted:I should record a video to get the micro-tactical stuff that I won't think to write down (I have one on my YT but I was waaay worse when I recorded it), but here's some top dome stuff that got me through expert plus Dang that's way more than I expected; but useful, that gives me a good idea of how to think during missions. Thanks!
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Jan 8, 2020 16:21
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I think there's a pretty big difference between the type of balance we've been mostly talking about (balance between classes/choices you make during character creation) and balance between tactical options (like the pillar-dancing). Letting a player choose their difficulty level at the game's start is cool, but when I see discussions about this type of balancing it's usually more about moment to moment playstyles and whether they're a chore or not. The two types of choices may seem similar in the abstract, but they feel super different in practice! Choosing to handicap yourself at a game's start can feel super good, but part of what makes it feel good is that by setting boundaries for yourself you then give yourself full range to strive as hard as you can to win within those boundaries. Having an option that constantly available to you, powerful, but would make the game less fun sours a game in a way that's very different than choosing a suboptimal class at game's start. There have been studies that have found that if you have two options in a game--one that's fun but suboptimal and one that's strong but less fun, that the vast majority of players will end up choosing the strong but unfun one. You can say that it's just their choice when they do that, but there's something illogical in the way our brains are wired. Good game design should naturally push people towards the fun in the game. The game I've gotten hit the hardest by this recently is actually Qud. You can hit level 2 and get some better gear in the starting village if you spend a few minutes doing quest and shopping stuff. I'm pretty new to the game, so it's pretty common that I go to the first dungeon and just am instantly stoned to death by baboons on the way in. That's fine--the basic flow of roguelikes is that you die a ton and learn a little each death. The fact that I'm spending the first five minutes of each run doing semi-mindless bookkeeping, only to die in minute seven, gets really frustrating (in what otherwise seems like an extremely cool and well designed game). I could choose just to skip it, but since I'm already dying a ton at the game's start it feels like I need all the help I can get.
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Jan 8, 2020 17:54
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Ratt your game sounds extremely like my jam. Also now I want SaGa Frontier 2: The Roguelike.
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Jan 9, 2020 01:42
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i haven’t been reading this thread in a while so sorry if i’m like necroing a discussion or something but are people playing griftlands? it’s dirt cheap and looked fun so i picked it up and i’m quite enjoying it. impatience on negotiations is complete bullshit tho
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Jan 9, 2020 01:53
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watho posted:i haven’t been reading this thread in a while so sorry if i’m like necroing a discussion or something but are people playing griftlands? it’s dirt cheap and looked fun so i picked it up and i’m quite enjoying it. impatience on negotiations is complete bullshit tho I mean, I'll buy literally anything Klei puts out at this point, but Griftlands is pretty great.
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Jan 9, 2020 02:02
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I mean, I'll buy literally anything Klei puts out at this point, but Griftlands is pretty great. OH they made shank! i knew the art style was familiar. i should also get oxygen not included at some point
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Jan 9, 2020 02:05
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OtspIII posted:Choosing to handicap yourself at a game's start can feel super good, but part of what makes it feel good is that by setting boundaries for yourself you then give yourself full range to strive as hard as you can to win within those boundaries.
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Jan 9, 2020 06:41
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watho posted:i haven’t been reading this thread in a while so sorry if i’m like necroing a discussion or something but are people playing griftlands? it’s dirt cheap and looked fun so i picked it up and i’m quite enjoying it. impatience on negotiations is complete bullshit tho Yeah, I've been playing it every now and then, but I don't want to play it too much before we have all of the story chapters done. It's always a letdown to have the curtain brought down prematurely. The game is great though!
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Jan 9, 2020 07:15
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I picked up Hades and am now desperately trying to keep myself from overplaying it into the ground before it’s finished. Please send help.
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Jan 9, 2020 07:30
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I've been playing Etrian Odyssey Nexus lately, and while it's not a Roguelike, it ties into the whole thing about balance design. I've been playing a party that is very much not an optimal, but it's very fun and can be very effectively. It's basically an entire team of status ailment dealers. It required a lot of work for it to get actual damage, and requires a lot of setup to do its damage, but that's a lot of fun. They have zero durability and damage until they land status effects, but drat it feels good once you get something to stick. Is it as optimal or as simply strong as just having a balanced crew or a crew of beatsticks? Probably not? But I'm on the hardest difficulty with a hard to use team and I've been doing good. I don't have to do the Optimal Play. Well, I still could if I wanted by just swapping out to a different party, but I like this too much.
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Jan 9, 2020 10:52
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Tangentially related, I got back into Slay the Spire today and uhhhh did they make the heart even harder? I remember the ~55 damage move but I sure as gently caress do not remember the 4x15 one that immediately followed it.
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Jan 9, 2020 13:29
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Stelas posted:Tangentially related, I got back into Slay the Spire today and uhhhh did they make the heart even harder? I remember the ~55 damage move but I sure as gently caress do not remember the 4x15 one that immediately followed it. I can't remember the Heart ever not having the x12(15) move. It has two attacks it uses in a random order, but it'll always use both attacks each cycle.
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Jan 9, 2020 13:56
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Mithross posted:I picked up Hades and am now desperately trying to keep myself from overplaying it into the ground before it’s finished. Please send help. I already fell down that rabbit hole lol. On the plus side it sounds like it's pretty close to feature complete - it doesn't seem like the ending will be another full zone. In like two weeks we're getting another god and some other bits and bobs.
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Jan 9, 2020 16:40
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I'm not sure I'd want it to be any longer. Elysium already feels like it drags a bit. I'd rather see branching paths, dead cells style.
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Jan 9, 2020 16:42
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I would definitely rather it does not go down the BoI route and keep adding more and more 'end' content onto the game and extending the game length repeatedly
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Jan 9, 2020 17:06
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I'd like more alternate bosses and more elite rooms like the barge/butterfly room, and a "true ending" StS style thing that doesnt gate heat progress. The length seems very good right now. Giving the world 4 boss some of his other weapons would be cool too but possibly unnecessary.
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Jan 9, 2020 17:29
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Kchama posted:I've been playing Etrian Odyssey Nexus lately, and while it's not a Roguelike, it ties into the whole thing about balance design. For me, that's a sign of a well balanced game. Perfect balance, of course, is impossible. But a developer that didn't care about balance would not have created a game that is actually challenging for an optimal party on max difficulty but is still reasonably beatable with a gimmick party on max difficulty. A team that doesn't care about balance would not have spent the man-hours necessary to make it work. Similarly, there is a best character in Slay the Spire, and some teams are better than others for Into the Breach. But since the dev cares about balance, these games will be challenging but doable regardless of which character or team is chosen. golden bubble fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jan 9, 2020 |
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Jan 9, 2020 17:39
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No Wave posted:I'd like more alternate bosses and more elite rooms like the barge/butterfly room, and a "true ending" StS style thing that doesnt gate heat progress. The length seems very good right now. we don't have all of his weapons either. there's a 6th slot in the open and 3 more at the bottom. dunno what those will be for.
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Jan 9, 2020 17:42
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