|
Cythereal posted:The AM is the winning side, I agree. Super convenient he spouts that off after he does just enough murder to conquer both his neighbors
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 14:21 |
|
|
Zore posted:Super convenient he spouts that off after he does just enough murder to conquer both his neighbors He spouts it a long time before, actually. In part one, Dimitri knows about that side of himself, hates it, and tries very hard to avoid situations where it would come up. It's part of his depression in his mix of PTSD in part two. He knows he's a terrible person even by his own measure. As early as chapter two, Dimitri talks at length about how much he hates war, hates killing, and sees it all as impossible to justify - and he says that as a man who knows he enjoys fighting and killing more than anyone should. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jan 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:14
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:True. The Blue Lions don't abandon their friends even when things are hard. Azure Moon is my favorite route, but Crimson Flower is absolutely worth playing if you enjoy the game. Were you planning on doing Silver Snow? If so, just save before the split so you can do both easily.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:21
|
|
|
I like Edelgard a lot, but it's really fun opposing her on the other routes. I think you can't fully appreciate Dimitri or Azure Moon if you don't see them from the other point of view.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:23
|
|
|
Especially on CF because it gives you a view at what Dimitri would have been if he hadn't had a mental break and turned into a murder hobo for a few years. Instead he foists his responsibility off on Rhea and dies an ignominious death after she uses him and his forces as bait. Then burns down his home city to really drive home how much of a fuckup he is
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:28
|
|
|
Tae posted:Edelgard is Cao Cao. Ultimately the victor, but questionable as a "Hero" even in their most glorious viewing of Three Kingdom media. Ultimately the victor, you say. I have real bad news about Hubert's grandson. Possibly also Hubert.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:33
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:
Sure, war is hell, but, Dimitri isn't a pacifist, at all. Even at his most benevolent and well adjusted, he's still absolutely willing to kill his enemies for the sake of his political goals. In his route, he's absolutely justified, but it's weird to make it out like he's Gandhi or someone when he's still a military commander. If Dimitri truly believed that killing is never justified, he'd disband his entire army and circulate a petition to give to Edelgard instead. I don't get this pure non-violent reading of him at all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:39
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:True. The Blue Lions don't abandon their friends even when things are hard. possibly the most liberal application of the phrase "when things were hard" ever. you could use it to describe the Veitnam War
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
Smirking_Serpent posted:Sure, war is hell, but, Dimitri isn't a pacifist, at all. Even at his most benevolent and well adjusted, he's still absolutely willing to kill his enemies for the sake of his political goals. In his route, he's absolutely justified, but it's weird to make it out like he's Gandhi or someone when he's still a military commander. I'm not saying Dimitri is a pacifist, at all. But it is a thing in Azure Moon that before he goes off the deep end, Dimitri hates war and does not see killing as ever being justified. He'll still fight and kill, but he thinks doing so is an evil thing and it doesn't reflect well on him. Dimitri, in my read on him, would truly prefer to not ever have to fight, but people keep forcing his hand and he's not going to let his friends die and his kingdom be conquered while he sits on his rear end. It takes a profoundly personal betrayal to crack that particular nut, and even once you get him back to sanity Dimitri doesn't think he'll ever be redeemed or deserve to be called a good person due to all the blood on his hands. indigi posted:possibly the most liberal application of the phrase "when things were hard" ever. you could use it to describe the Veitnam War I'd rather not jump to hyperbole, thanks. The Blue Lions in AM are not fair weather friends. They're in this together from the beginning, and they'll be together for the end.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
I know someone else that refuses to play Crimson Flower and I guess my thought is if you've paid for 100% of a game why only play 75% of it
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 00:53
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:he's not my favorite but I do appreciate that hubert is basically intsys trying to humanize a mid boss from any other fe game Dimitri has been a consistent source of  so far in what I've played of Post-timeskip AM so far. When I read somewhere (don't recall if Tumblr or Reddit) that Dimitri felt like what would happen to a Marth/"reluctant but plucky"-type FE Lord (Seliph, Eliwood, Lucina, etc) actually fell into despair/snapped, I was not expecting the places Dimi is taking me. Felix undershoot the mark with the whole "Boar Prince" thing.All that said: At least in the English version, and after having played CF and VW already, Chris Hackney definitely did the strongest job out of the three lords so far, so props to Jerry Manderbilt who called it. I loved him as Boey in FE15, but goddamn it feels loving unnerving to hear him as Dimitri. Cythereal posted:Just watching an LP of it makes me feel unclean.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:02
|
|
|
I mean I understand sticking to your chosen route because I feel just as bad opposing Edelgard, both because she's my favorite but also because I agree with her and what she does. I failed to play AM because of that and just youtubed it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:22
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:I'm not saying Dimitri is a pacifist, at all. But it is a thing in Azure Moon that before he goes off the deep end, Dimitri hates war and does not see killing as ever being justified. He'll still fight and kill, but he thinks doing so is an evil thing and it doesn't reflect well on him. The thing is that this is true of Edelgard as well; she's just more honest about it. She also realizes, unlike Dimitri, that the victims of the status quo reflect on the people who fight to preserve that status quo. At the end of the day, if Dimitri really thought that it's evil to fight and kill, he'd just surrender to Edelgard. Obviously he continues to fight because he believes that the alternative is worse, just as Edelgard does. But where Edelgard is fairly clear-sighted about this choice, even when she's an antagonist (she explicitly states that she has to weigh the dead of this war against those who will die and suffer under the status quo), Dimitri is really not, at least in my opinion. At the end of the day I think this is just a flaw in the writing: the writers take it for granted that of course it's justifiable to fight a "defensive" war, whereas Edelgard's "aggressive" war has to be more explicitly justified. But to get back to the original point, if you played CF you'd know that Edelgard hates war and feels a lot of guilt about those who die because of her actions; she feels just as forced into what she's doing as Dimitri, because her principles won't allow her to just step back and let people continue suffering under the status quo. The game actually hints that she feels worse about the cost of her actions than Dimitri: in the parallel quests where it talks about each of them visiting the graves of the fallen, it makes it clear that Edelgard mourns the dead regardless of their allegiance in life, whereas Dimitri only mourns those who fought for him. It's a minor thing, but I think it does reflect on both of them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:25
|
|
|
Eimi posted:I mean I understand sticking to your chosen route because I feel just as bad opposing Edelgard, both because she's my favorite but also because I agree with her and what she does. I failed to play AM because of that and just youtubed it. What did you think of it?
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:27
|
|
|
ROFL Octopus posted:What did you think of it? AM feels the most standard heroic of the routes in game, with Dimitri as the noble returning prince with some darkness in the middle. That darkness felt too easily glossed over to me. Basically I feel that Edelgard properly shows how she overcomes her character flaws in CF but Dimitri just suffers a magical death that 'cures' him. And I know his S support with Byleth says it still affects him, but it doesn't affect the narrative, old prince charming Dimitri is back after that point. If they stuck the landing on him getting over his flaws it'd improve the route a lot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:31
|
|
|
Those "cinematic" Youtube montages of each route that also include snippets/highlights of each map do a fine job of conveying the full picture of the routes perfectly well imo, since you're not just watching cutscenes and you also get stuff like Seteth and Flayn's in-battle convos
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:37
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:The thing is that this is true of Edelgard as well; she's just more honest about it. She also realizes, unlike Dimitri, that the victims of the status quo reflect on the people who fight to preserve that status quo. "Stop making me hit you! You're just as bad as you say I am because you hit back!" is always tedious logic. AM makes the point that no matter what Edelgard's motives are, thousands upon thousands of people who have nothing to do with her fight or her goals are suffering and dying because of her actions. I think Edelgard is exactly the same as Rhea: she's been grievously hurt and is fighting to unmake the world that permitted the evil that happened to her so she can make a new world where that evil can never happen. And I think both are tyrants leading cults of personality who do not know or care why anyone opposes them, they're so convinced of their own righteousness that anyone who does oppose them must be deluded or evil. AM is great because both Edelgard and Rhea end up in the dumpster at the end.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:41
|
|
|
Wark Say posted:Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by mid-boss, they've been consistently doing that since FE4. I don't mean the one good guy boss that sticks with his side because honor or w/e, I'm talking about the generic evil guys
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:44
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:True. The Blue Lions don't abandon their friends even when things are hard. Just recruit them to the empire, they have cookies
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 01:48
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:I agree with Dimitri's view that war itself is a crime and there is no such thing as a justified or necessary act of killing. Weirdly, I consider an abusive aristocratic/theocratic caste system that's resulted in a thousand years of suffering and social violence (oh, and killing) to require cessation even if that takes five years of war. Sure, the war killed a bunch of people and inflicted suffering but how much suffering happened because of the caste system, aristocratic rule and so on? Better deal with the issue (through war, because the current powers of Fodlan have made clear that peaceful reform is not on the table) now rather than let the slowly-and-quietly-but-still-mass-murderous system continue for another millenia (or, in my worst ending, basically be re-implemented whoops). And it wasn't like things were getting better: as crests became less common the nobles were becoming increasingly evil in trying to maintain their (false) "divine right", one of the main forces of Fodlan committed a genocide for fuckall reason and suffered no consequences etc etc. Eventually without the shakeup to the status quo that the war provided, Fodlan would have exploded into a orgy of civil wars and inter-nobility-violence and likely one of the foreign powers that Fodlan hasn't maintained a good relationship with would move in to kick Fodlan when it was down. Mark Twain's quote has been used a lot in the discussions of 3H morality, but here it is again cause it's incredibly relevant to Fodlan: “There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.” The "Terror" Fodlan waged on itself for a thousand years (and would have continued to wage on itself had the status quo just kept going) inflicted infinitely more suffering and death than the 5 year war that is the only thing that allowed the status quo to be changed for the better (in all routes). Cythereal posted:AM makes the point that no matter what Edelgard's motives are, thousands upon thousands of people who have nothing to do with her fight or her goals are suffering and dying because of her actions. I mean "tyrant leading cults of personality who do not know or care why anyone opposes them" is basically monarchy 101 and Dimitri is pretty solidly into the whole "monarchy" dealio. At least Edelgard steps down as "tyrant" a la Cincinnatus after trying to implement required-for-Fodlan-social-reforms, while Dimitri...well, huzzah for Kingdoms, aristocracy and Crests, let's all hope none of the absolute monarch's descendants turn out to be unfit to rule in however many years they are in power after the story ends (or get TWSTD), I guess. Also, I find the idea of trying to portray Edelgard as "convinced of their own righteousness that anyone who does oppose them must be deluded or evil" (see her discussions on Claude which basically comes to Claude is not evil, nor deluded, just with clashing ambitions) is pretty out there. She sees some of her foes as deluded (Catherine, Dimitri) or malevolant (TWSTD, Rhea), but she absolutely recognizes that some people she's fighting are neither (Claude+Alliance, Almyrians etc). Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jan 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:05
|
|
|
Correct. War is good, and you should start them as soon as you think you have a good reason to. Listen to the Empress with personal grievances against the church and a whole bunch of mental issues who falls head over heels for a mercenary that jumps in front of an attack she caused, I totally trust her to know what's best for society.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:I don't mean the one good guy boss that sticks with his side because honor or w/e, I'm talking about the generic evil guys A little bit of dialogue and screen-time can do wonders sometimes. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:16
|
|
|
Shinji117 posted:Mark Twain's quote has been used a lot in the discussions of 3H morality, but here it is again cause it's incredibly relevant to Fodlan: And I find that an incredibly privileged sentiment written by a man who had never been to war. It's so very easy to say that war is necessary and justified if you don't expect to ever pay the price yourself, and war means that hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heartbreak in spades for every land it affects.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:16
|
|
|
Eimi posted:AM feels the most standard heroic of the routes in game, with Dimitri as the noble returning prince with some darkness in the middle. That darkness felt too easily glossed over to me. Basically I feel that Edelgard properly shows how she overcomes her character flaws in CF but Dimitri just suffers a magical death that 'cures' him. And I know his S support with Byleth says it still affects him, but it doesn't affect the narrative, old prince charming Dimitri is back after that point. If they stuck the landing on him getting over his flaws it'd improve the route a lot. To be fair, Edel's character flaws are a lot more subdued in CF (I assume it refers to her trust issues) and the story itself doesn't really address how it could have affected her campaign - are there potential allies that she distrusted, resulting in a more difficult battle than it's supposed to be, and so on. Once she gets her anchor in Byleth at the start of part 2 none of that ever really surfaces. While Dimitri's issues on the other hand are obviously front and center for most of AM. While I don't disagree that AM could've stuck the landing better, the comparison is also not entirely equal because the writers have a lot more to work with in AM. And I dunno, in terms of narrative structure, I personally find CF to be a straightforward heroic narrative itself, almost "power fantasy" like, it just doesn't look that way because Edelgard is an anti-hero. It reminds me of Alm's route in Echoes in that they're a revolutionary army that has a straight, practically unchallenged path to victory, and what apparent setback happened to them (Arianrhod's nuking in CF, Alm killing his own dad in Echoes) ultimately didn't throw them off their course at all. CF part 2 is mostly the army going from one place to the next conquering areas, and while there's controversy around CF in the meta discussions, the route itself doesn't address those questions much outside of Edel going "this is the path I've chosen", so it plays out pretty straightforwardly. blizzardvizard fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Jan 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:17
|
|
|
I find the positive spin put on Edelgard restoring the power of the Emperor unsettling when the whole reason her father became a figurehead in the first place was because he had an entire family put to death.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:21
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:Correct. War is good, and you should start them as soon as you think you have a good reason to. this unironically
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:22
|
|
|
Ah, so we should listen to the prince with an untreatable-due-to-tech-level unspecified mental disorder causing delusions and hallucinations and severe trauma who blindly follows the tyrant that caused the societal setup that caused a lot of his trauma in the first place/murdered people because of his delusions instead and stays in power despite knowing what happens when he breaks down instead, I see, this makes sense Fake E: they're both rulers in systems of highly centralized power they both suck as rulers because the system they operate under is innately unjust
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:25
|
|
|
Wark Say posted:No yeah, I know who you mean: Like the guys from Verdane that you fight throughout most of the Prologue/Chapter 1 that you cannot recruit. They all feel like fairly well-realized (even if admittedly minor) characters. Admittedly, both Prologue and Ch 1 take several loving hours to complete even if you're playing super fast, so yeah. no I mean like the hilariously evil bad guys in fe4/5. like those priests that want lief dead
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
Lol at the dude who said edelgard had to go to war because no one else wanted political reform, when both Dimitri and Claude want to reform.the politics of Fodlan to create a more equal land with less suffering, but are unwilling to start a war about it. Edelgards a crazy person who decided the only way change would ever happen is through violent revolution, and did not even make a single inch of an attempt to find another way. She sent thousands to their death and experimented on hundreds because she was sure this was the only way it would work. And in every route besides her own she ends up little more than a petty dictator screaming impotently. When Dimitri offers his hand to her to help heal the world and fix things, so long as her reasons were just, she screeches and goes further into her own head about how only she can heal the world, because she has a messiah complex.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:27
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:And I find that an incredibly privileged sentiment written by a man who had never been to war.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:28
|
|
|
Like Clockwork posted:Ah, so we should listen to the prince with an untreatable-due-to-tech-level unspecified mental disorder causing delusions and hallucinations and severe trauma who blindly follows the tyrant that caused the societal setup that caused a lot of his trauma in the first place/murdered people because of his delusions instead and stays in power despite knowing what happens when he breaks down instead, I see, this makes sense Personally, I think we should trust none of these kids/dragons with massive issues. Like I said, democracy for all. But Edelgard is the only one of them that starts a war, so she's the one I complain about more.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:28
|
|
|
Tbh CF would have been even cooler if you got a Summoner type class that could conjure up Demonic Beasts Just go all in on the evil
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:29
|
|
|
Shinji117 posted:At least Edelgard steps down as "tyrant" a la Cincinnatus after trying to implement required-for-Fodlan-social-reforms ...After putting Ferdinand and Caspar in the positions their fathers held and giving anyone who wanted their land back (Ingrid, for instance), and then when she steps down she handpicks her own successor. Reforms, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
Shinji117 posted:Assumptions make an rear end out of you. I'm pretty sure you have no idea who I am or what I do. I mean, I guess it it's technically true because of how rarely war is officially declared these days, but still. I was talking about Mark Twain.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
Like Clockwork posted:Ah, so we should listen to the prince with an untreatable-due-to-tech-level unspecified mental disorder causing delusions and hallucinations and severe trauma who blindly follows the tyrant that caused the societal setup that caused a lot of his trauma in the first place/murdered people because of his delusions instead and stays in power despite knowing what happens when he breaks down instead, I see, this makes sense I mean the part about blindly following the tyrant would be a lot more damning if anyone outside of Edelgard had any idea that that was what Rhea was doing. Yeah she does come off as sketch, but it's honestly a huge leap from that to the reality of what actually has happened and (understandably, because of circumstances) the only person who learns what Edelgard knows is Byleth on CF, and she almost doesn't even reach out that much. Also it is good to overthrow the church but the imperial revanchism doesn't sit well with me, but that's because I'm sick of real world constant justification of imperialism as 'what needs to be done'. It's not like Edelgard had better options that she could risk taking from her position, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
edelgard's route is the only route where a public education system is invented
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:31
|
|
|
Augus posted:edelgard's route is the only route where a public education system is invented Incorrect, this happens in every route if manuela and lorenz pair up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:32
|
|
|
edelgard leads the adrestian empire (aka 'the nemesis empire' (aka 'the hubris against the gods empire')), so my conclusion is that nemesis is the good guy, actually. thanks for coming to my ted talk
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:33
|
|
|
KittyEmpress posted:Incorrect, this happens in every route if manuela and lorenz pair up. that obviously isn't canon, nobody would ever marry lorenz in a million years
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 14:21 |
|
|
ungulateman posted:edelgard leads the adrestian empire (aka 'the nemesis empire' (aka 'the hubris against the gods empire')), so my conclusion is that nemesis is the good guy, actually. thanks for coming to my ted talk Nemesis was just a good king who had a simple dispute (murdering her entire family and people) with that evil Seiros (who founded the Empire) and the relics were made by the hands of man (through cyber moleman technology from the bones of a entire race of people) dontcha know
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2020 02:34
|
|