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CelestialScribe posted:This is all legitimately great, but has absolutely zero bearing on his ability to pass Medicare for All through a Republican Senate. So like I said, you don't think activism will work, and there's no point in talking about it.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:50
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Again, this is great stuff, but how does it impact Bernie passing Medicare for All through a Republican senate?
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Jan 10, 2020 01:50
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King of Solomon posted:So like I said, you don't think activism will work, and there's no point in talking about it. It isn't that I don't think it will work, because activism obviously works. What I haven't seen articulated is how activism will get Medicare For All passed through a Republican Senate. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 10, 2020 01:50
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CelestialScribe posted:It isn't that I don't think it will work, because activism obviously works. What I haven't seen articulated is how activism will get Medicare For All passed through a Republican Senate. Well, the hope is that you can get a Democratic senate, but obviously that's not a given. You work with what you have, even if that means having the federal government support people banging on Mitch McConnell's door or something.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:52
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LinYutang posted:According to that poll, Steyer now has more Black support in SC than Bernie does. You can buy a lot of soft support from old people with ads. Most black voters in SC are olds.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:54
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King of Solomon posted:Well, the hope is that you can get a Democratic senate, but obviously that's not a given. You work with what you have, even if that means having the federal government support people banging on Mitch McConnell's door or something. Let's talk realistically - even if Bernie is able to create a large activist movement, which he can and is doing already, that isn't going to change Republican votes. Mitch McConnell and Republicans are not going to bow to Democratic pressure. So again I ask, how is activism meant to get Medicare for All passed? The more realistic scenario is that enthusiasm for Bernie creates enthusiasm for Senate candidates which results in a Democratic Senate several years from now, when Medicare for All can get passed. But this idea that protests and strikes etc are going to get Republicans to change their minds? Folly.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:55
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LinYutang posted:According to that poll, Steyer now has more Black support in SC than Bernie does. Well poo poo, my response was posted on the very end of the last page. Anyway, he has nine offices in South Carolina (equal to Warren and six more than Biden) and his campaign regularly runs a lot of volunteer events, phonebanking, and canvassing. Bernie's visited the state a few times though I think Nina Turner headlined more events than he has. His website has an interactive map of upcoming events in every state and South Carolina is pretty active on it. Google Maps has a list of the campaign's offices and where they are located although there hasn't been a new office in the state in a while.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:58
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CelestialScribe posted:Let's talk realistically - even if Bernie is able to create a large activist movement, which he can and is doing already, that isn't going to change Republican votes. Again, this is legitimately unprecedented stuff. No other president has tried to do this before, so it's just running on the history of activism being the way things get done in this country. VitalSigns posted the WV teacher's strike, for example. One thing that you'll notice if you dig in a little deeper (or even just think about it for a few seconds) is that West Virginia is a republican state. The legislature, the governor, all Republican. So if the WV teacher's strike worked, there's a possibility that you can get Mitch McConnell to bend through some aggressive activism. Is it likely? No. But it's worth a shot. And yes, there's also the hope that Sanders will have sufficient coattails to get the Democrats control of the senate, even if that control is 50 senators + VP.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:59
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King of Solomon posted:Again, this is legitimately unprecedented stuff. No other president has tried to do this before, so it's just running on the history of activism being the way things get done in this country. VitalSigns posted the WV teacher's strike, for example. One thing that you'll notice if you dig in a little deeper (or even just think about it for a few seconds) is that West Virginia is a republican state. The legislature, the governor, all Republican. So if the WV teacher's strike worked, there's a possibility that you can get Mitch McConnell to bend through some aggressive activism. Is it likely? No. But it's worth a shot. Sorry, but this is just completely foolish. If you seriously think McConnell will bend to Democratic protests you're out of your mind. The better chance is taking the Senate.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:02
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CelestialScribe posted:Sorry, but this is just completely foolish. If you seriously think McConnell will bend to Democratic protests you're out of your mind. I said it's unlikely, dude.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:03
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King of Solomon posted:I said it's unlikely, dude. It's not even unlikely, it's impossible.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:04
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CelestialScribe posted:Sorry, but this is just completely foolish. If you seriously think McConnell will bend to Democratic protests you're out of your mind. N...no. That’s not the goal. So, is anyone going to talk about the Democrats breaking a filibuster the old fashioned way?
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Jan 10, 2020 02:06
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CelestialScribe posted:It's not even unlikely, it's impossible. This thing that has never been tried before is impossible. I know this because
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Jan 10, 2020 02:06
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In a world where Bernie wins the presidency, I think there is a good chance D's take the senate.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:07
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CelestialScribe posted:Again, this is great stuff, but how does it impact Bernie passing Medicare for All through a Republican senate? You don't see what activism that pressured Republican legislators to vote for progressive policy has to do with activism pressuring Republicans to vote for progressive policy?
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Jan 10, 2020 02:08
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VitalSigns posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_West_Virginia_teachers%27_strike That's a little disingenuous because they had Republicans behind them in the House of Delegates to begin with and the Republican governor. Like the pressure from the teachers was absolutely crucial and great, but there was a lot going on there that resulted in that outcome. But the pressure only existed in the first place because the Republican governor had promised state employees* a raise and the Republicans in the House of Delegates were supportive.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:13
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mcmagic posted:LOL @ these loving morons still supporting Mayo Pete at this point in the race. I think he's hurting Biden more than anyone else though. At this point, isn't it Biden hurting Pete?
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Jan 10, 2020 02:13
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Sometimes I wonder if people like CelestrialScribe are just waiting for the magical day that someone finally says "Ah yes, I asked the precogs and they said that including 10 prime numbers in the MfA legislation would brainwash Republicans into voting for it." (of course they reality is that they just don't give a poo poo about this stuff and primarily care about owning the left by repeatedly pointing out how change is impossible) CelestialScribe posted:I've asked several times how Bernie supporters actually expect him to get stuff passed, and every answer is just "uhhhh build a movement? executive order??? somehow???" There is literally no other answer to this. You can't magically prove that you can get bad people to pass good things. Think of it this way - if Congress was 100% Republicans you'd admit that the only real option is to attempt to build a movement to get them out of office, right? We exist in a situation where passing good things is inherently impossible without changing the people in our government, and changing the people in our government requires an actual political movement. And you can't build a political movement without actual goals beyond just "elect Democrats." What exactly are you trying to accomplish anyways? Even if you ignore the fact that we're all obviously aware of the fact that Congress won't pass anything decent without heavy pressure (and even then it's uncertain), what response are you hoping for? CelestialScribe posted:How? Please provide in detail how you think this is going to work, I'm being serious. It is literally impossible to envision an answer to this question that you would find acceptable (by the way, this is an effective litmus test for telling if someone is acting in bad faith). It is obviously impossible to provide a direct guide to how to accomplish such an uncertain huge long-term goal. If I had the ability to do that, it would be because I was a hypergenius with the literal superpower of precognition. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 02:13
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sports posted:Fred Hampton knew a thing or two about building progressive movements. Liz Warren would release a statement about how Fred Hampton was a dangerous anti American radical but killing him was wrong.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:29
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New national poll by Ipsos: Sanders 17 (+2) Biden 15 (-3) Warren 10 (0) Bloomberg 6 (+1) Buttigeg 5 (+1)
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Jan 10, 2020 02:32
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overmind2000 posted:New national poll by Ipsos: Sanders 17 (+2) Biden 15 (-3) Warren 10 (0) Bloomberg 6 (+1) Buttigeg 5 (+1) Democratic nominee Don't Know running away with it at 23%.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:35
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overmind2000 posted:New national poll by Ipsos: Sanders 17 (+2) Biden 15 (-3) Warren 10 (0) Bloomberg 6 (+1) Buttigeg 5 (+1) this is a great poll, unironically. It means that uninformed people only pick Biden based on name recognition. Also, the Steyer bump is odd, though he's easily the third best candidate purely on the issues
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Jan 10, 2020 02:40
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Democratic nominee Don't Know running away with it at 23%. 538 gives "Don't Know" a 1 in 7 chance of winning
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Jan 10, 2020 02:42
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:That's a little disingenuous because they had Republicans behind them in the House of Delegates to begin with and the Republican governor. Like the pressure from the teachers was absolutely crucial and great, but there was a lot going on there that resulted in that outcome. But the pressure only existed in the first place because the Republican governor had promised state employees* a raise and the Republicans in the House of Delegates were supportive. So activism worked but it doesn't count for reasons. I mean ok. If you think Republicans will keep the Senate and no legislation is possible then Bernie is the only good candidate because his foreign policy, where the President has unilateral power, is the only good one
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Jan 10, 2020 02:44
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Seems a bit late in the game for this but I don't know what other lane she really has at this point beyond "middling compromise that pleases no one": https://twitter.com/AlxThomp/status/1215442444491403264 Case in point: https://twitter.com/RoseFasa/status/1215327086900056066
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Jan 10, 2020 02:45
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oxsnard posted:this is a great poll, unironically. It means that uninformed people only pick Biden based on name recognition. it was the steyer sons
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Jan 10, 2020 02:46
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This illustrates how Steyer/Bloomberg have any polling numbers whatsoever- https://twitter.com/DavidWright_CNN/status/1215295977818656768 I don't buy for a second that Steyer is now in 2nd place in SC. I want someone to actually see if they can find a person who legit supports him in that state
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Jan 10, 2020 02:49
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Mat Cauthon posted:Seems a bit late in the game for this but I don't know what other lane she really has at this point beyond "middling compromise that pleases no one": Interesting pitch to make when she's the one warring the most in the debates.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:49
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Mat Cauthon posted:Seems a bit late in the game for this but I don't know what other lane she really has at this point beyond "middling compromise that pleases no one": I supported her earlier but she lost me flopping on M4A. That was the stupidest thing she ever could have done and no one should believe her after it.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:53
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https://twitter.com/emrata/status/1215370874452422657?s=20
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Jan 10, 2020 02:59
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wait, did I really just read a bunch of smarmy posts about how mass movements can't and haven't ever made change? that's so wildly ignorant of how movement, in any direction, has ever been made anywhere. read a loving book, god drat. or just remember ten years ago when the tea party completely washed the republican party and then the democrats. edit: progress isn't a gift of capital, it's always been a fight. it's a fight that imprisons and kills. Bernie isn't trying something never before seen, he's the potential grip on the levers of power that the broader labor and socialist and communist movement used to have. this is a continuation of the fight for an eight hour work day, for unemployment insurance, minimum wage, voting rights, integration, etc. it will work because it's the only thing that has ever worked nearly killed em! fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 03:20
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Who?
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Jan 10, 2020 03:22
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droll posted:Who? Bernie Sanders
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Jan 10, 2020 03:24
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nearly killed em! posted:wait, did I really just read a bunch of smarmy posts about how mass movements can't and haven't ever made change? that's so wildly ignorant of how movement, in any direction, has ever been made anywhere. read a loving book, god drat. or just remember ten years ago when the tea party completely washed the republican party and then the democrats.
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Jan 10, 2020 03:28
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Oh geeze I forgot about Klob. She's catnip for a NYT op-ed writer. They're not going to endorse a no hope candidate, they'll endorse one of the top four. Since they won't endorse Sanders, that leaves Biden, Warren or Butt. I feel like they're going to go Butt because he's young and a technocrat.
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Jan 10, 2020 04:06
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Charlz Guybon posted:They're not going to endorse a no hope candidate, they'll endorse one of the top four. NYT editors is pretty much Mayo Pete's base
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Jan 10, 2020 04:10
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droll posted:Who? She's a model/actress.
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Jan 10, 2020 04:11
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Mat Cauthon posted:Seems a bit late in the game for this but I don't know what other lane she really has at this point beyond "middling compromise that pleases no one": This is a good argument for her and I could even see it working if Biden craters hard.
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Jan 10, 2020 04:19
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FlamingLiberal posted:This illustrates how Steyer/Bloomberg have any polling numbers whatsoever- It would be great if he was, cut's down on Biden's chance to win.
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Jan 10, 2020 04:20
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Foreign policy can also impact domestic policy. LBJ’s Great Society could have been even greater if he didn’t let the country get dragged into Vietnam. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/opinion/vietnam-war-great-society.amp.html
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Jan 10, 2020 04:20
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