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pro starcraft loser posted:Sounds easier to just put him on a flight to Toronto. Can't have your own people doing the dirty work
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Jan 10, 2020 02:00
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Fojar38 posted:Oh you don't say? Maybe the blame for the result of pulling the trigger should be placed on the people who pulled the trigger perhaps? Hmm, perhaps so. But the people who pulled the trigger are some officers in an AA nest in the Iranian countryside who hosed up, whereas you're content to simply say "Iran" as if Rouhani said "yeah gently caress those Canadians" and ordered the plane downed.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:00
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The key to negligently killing civilians is to do it in smaller batches for years and years on end. Not one big oopsie.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:02
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Fojar38 posted:If Iran's pride didn't dictate that it respond to the death of Soleimani with ineffective missile strikes that could have provoked a response, hence necessitating hair trigger AA batteries, those people would also likely be alive. So what you're saying is Fojar38 posted:Nothing in that post is factually incorrect. ?
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Jan 10, 2020 02:04
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Fojar literally doesn't believe that Iran is a sovereign nation, which means the US is justified in assassinating its SecDef while Iran is not justified in responding.
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Jan 10, 2020 02:18
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Holy poo poo this derail is immensely stupid, as is all the personal sniping. It's incredibly ghoulish for everyone involved to use the death of these civilians to take aim at their posting rivals. Get a grip
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Jan 10, 2020 02:52
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OctaMurk posted:If the United States hubris didnt dictate that it bomb a foreign war hero that could have provoked a response, those people would also likely be alive. Why stop in 53! Surely the invasion in 41 and subsequent removal of the shah to be replaced by his more easily controllable son by the combined Anglo-Soviet forces had a major impact?
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Jan 10, 2020 03:14
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OctaMurk posted:Hmm, perhaps so. But the people who pulled the trigger are some officers in an AA nest in the Iranian countryside who hosed up, whereas you're content to simply say "Iran" as if Rouhani said "yeah gently caress those Canadians" and ordered the plane downed. Responsibility rests with everyone within a chain of command when soldiers kill civilians because they made a whoopsie. Incredible that the Iranians are shooting pinpoint missiles with terrifying accuracy to avoid any injury but can't get their aerial monitoring right and killed volumes of non combatants.
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Jan 10, 2020 03:37
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freeasinbeer posted:Why stop in 53! Hadrian should never have given up Mesopotamia! Trajan's legionaries should not have died in vain!
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Jan 10, 2020 04:48
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when the poster is right, they're right
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Jan 10, 2020 05:15
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Brown Moses posted:We did our usual thing with it: Did they explain to the Times why they were outside at night, already filming in the exact direction of a plane being shot down and didn't seem to react at all?
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Jan 10, 2020 07:43
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Did they explain to the Times why they were outside at night, already filming in the exact direction of a plane being shot down and didn't seem to react at all? Probable combination of a guy having a smoke (or at least some smoke can be seen while exhaling, might be just vapor), heard the missile being fired (there's a military base just a few km away) and there you go.
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Jan 10, 2020 07:57
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Karmalis posted:Probable combination of a guy having a smoke (or at least some smoke can be seen while exhaling, might be just vapor), heard the missile being fired (there's a military base just a few km away) and there you go. The BBC and US press reported satellite detections of two AA missile launches, so after the first one went up I think a lot of people would pull out their phones and keep filming, especially as AA missiles would be fired in short succession. I don't know why someone would expect someone to react, while by themselves at 6am, to seeing an explosion in the sky. They're not going to yell "oh gently caress" in Farsi. I remember with videos of the Chelyabinsk meteor striking Russia a few years ago, with tons of dashcam videos with audio, and like none of them had any reaction from the drivers, and that was a way larger explosion. Also there are like 10 million people in the Tehran area, of which probably at least a few hundred thousand are within adequate filming distance of the AA strike, it would seem pretty unlikely if there was no one up and outside at 6:15 am (i.e. perfect time to start going to work to get to downtown Tehran to beat morning rush hour), and that none of them would bother using their cell phone to film weird things going on in the sky. E: Chelyabinsk video compilation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpmXyJrs7iU . Nearly all the videos have audio, but notice the utter lack of reactions from anyone driving by to seeing a giant burning light streaking across the sky. People don't tend to react until they hear the explosion (or obviously, feel, if they're close enough). Saladman fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 08:04
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RandomBlue posted:If we hadn't assassinated an Iranian general those people would likely be alive. If Soleimani had converted to Buddhism and moved to Madagaskar then we would have had a very boring week.
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Jan 10, 2020 08:30
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Fojar38 posted:If Iran's pride didn't dictate that it respond to the death of Soleimani with ineffective missile strikes that could have provoked a response, hence necessitating hair trigger AA batteries, those people would also likely be alive. It's not a pride thing. Iran has to show there are consequences for what the US did or else America will keep pressing. Showing weakness could legit result in senior officials getting killed or sites in Iran getting bombed.
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Jan 10, 2020 08:48
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WorldsStongestNerd posted:It's not a pride thing. Iran has to show there are consequences for what the US did or else America will keep pressing. Showing weakness could legit result in senior officials getting killed or sites in Iran getting bombed. Thank goodness for strong ayatollah and his peace missiles 
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Jan 10, 2020 09:06
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Saladman posted:The US press reported satellite detections of multiple AA missile launches (3?), so after the first one went up I think a lot of people would pull out their phones and keep filming, especially as AA missiles would be fired in short succession. I think you might be making the mistake by viewing at Iran as if it was a
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Jan 10, 2020 09:11
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Karmalis posted:I think you might be making the mistake by viewing at Iran as if it was a free civilized western country. It's not. I bet there's more videos, but it's not that easy to "share information" when you're in Iran. I'm pretty sure that soon enough, we will start to see more videos emerging. With the missile or without. Eh? What are you quoting? I never said it was easy to share videos. I was agreeing with you and responding to WhiskeyWhiskers, so not sure what you’re responding to. I imagine there are more videos that will come out, but they’re not ones I’d personally want to upload to LiveLeak or whatever if I were living in Iran, since it goes against the official story. I’d be scared as hell to share that video. I wasn’t expecting tons of dashcam videos since that seems to be a Russian cultural exclusive, but rather the Russia video was to counteract the claim that the video is false because the guy filming isn’t screaming "oh gently caress oh gently caress oh gently caress" or whatever the other poster thought is an appropriate response. Saladman fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 09:13
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Nenonen posted:If Soleimani had converted to Buddhism and moved to Madagaskar then we would have had a very boring week. If you call someone and tell them their child has been shot and is about to die, and they drive too fast on the way to where you told them their kid is at, and get into an accident, you're *at least* partially at fault. It's not good to speed but you're the one that precipitated the entire series of events that led to the accident. If you ponder this you may begin to understand why America is at fault  Nenonen posted:Thank goodness for strong ayatollah and his peace missiles Heck yeah! It would be a horrific tragedy if America did to Iran what it did to Iraq
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Jan 10, 2020 09:27
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Nenonen posted:If Soleimani had converted to Buddhism and moved to Madagaskar then we would have had a very boring week. Also this sounds like some poo poo the Joker would tell Batman to justify crushing Robin's skull with a crowbar "Ahahaha, should have taken a vacation, Bats!"
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Jan 10, 2020 09:31
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WorldsStongestNerd posted:It's not a pride thing. Iran has to show there are consequences for what the US did or else America will keep pressing. Showing weakness could legit result in senior officials getting killed or sites in Iran getting bombed. If this was their goal then they completely and utterly failed considering their response was a wet fart that actively resulted in them self-owning by shooting down a civilian airliner. It was absolutely a pride thing. The goal wasn't to deter the US, it was to maintain a strong image to the Iranian public, who if you recall were actively protesting against the regime en masse two months ago. This is why immediately after the strikes Iranian state media switched tack to "dozens of American dead and hundreds of injuries; American bases in flames!" A secondary goal may have been to intimidate the Iraqis into forcing the US out, but apparently nobody told the Ayatollah that attacking someone is generally a poor way to get them to drop their military alliance with the world's sole superpower. And of course, all you need to do is switch around a few proper nouns and your post becomes justification for the US taking out Soleimani, or in fact retaliating against Iran's retaliation if they wanted to. It'd be just as lovely in that context. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 09:36
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i doubt that weird psychoanalysis of shooting down this jet is at all fruitful. at the moment we cannot even be certain that it *was* shot down (though it seems very likely), and if it was it almost certainly was not a policy decision beyond iranian air defence being overly trigger-happy, which is certainly not an unreasonable posture in a situation of elevated tension - which was created pretty unilaterally by the USA in this instance
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Jan 10, 2020 09:44
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Nenonen posted:If Soleimani had converted to Buddhism and moved to Madagaskar then we would have had a very boring week. Iran is on America's crosshair because it has large oil and gas reserve, and try to sell them outside of the petrodollar system, not because of its religion.
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Jan 10, 2020 09:52
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Sharkie posted:If you call someone and tell them their child has been shot and is about to die, and they drive too fast on the way to where you told them their kid is at, and get into an accident, you're *at least* partially at fault. It's not good to speed but you're the one that precipitated the entire series of events that led to the accident. If you ponder this you may begin to understand why America is at fault Are you comparing Iran's government and military to a panicked parent? If they acted at that level of rationality then Iran definitely should be demilitarized. I really don't understand why you are trying so hard to absolve the people who shot down an airliner from their responsibility. Do you also feel that someone other than United States was ultimately responsible for US Navy shooting down Iran Air 655? In my mind you are always responsible for your own actions, especially when you are operating loving surface to air missiles near international flight routes.
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Jan 10, 2020 09:52
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Saladman posted:Eh? What are you quoting? I never said it was easy to share videos. I was agreeing with you and responding to WhiskeyWhiskers, so not sure what you’re responding to. I imagine there are more videos that will come out, but they’re not ones I’d personally want to upload to LiveLeak or whatever if I were living in Iran, since it goes against the official story. I’d be scared as hell to share that video. I wasn’t expecting tons of dashcam videos since that seems to be a Russian cultural exclusive, but rather the Russia video was to counteract the claim that the video is false because the guy filming isn’t screaming "oh gently caress oh gently caress oh gently caress" or whatever the other poster thought is an appropriate response. Hm, I possibly misunderstood your post. Cheers for clarifying.
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Jan 10, 2020 10:21
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In other news. https://twitter.com/rengels11/status/1215568844930109440
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Jan 10, 2020 12:41
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Nenonen posted:Are you comparing Iran's government and military to a panicked parent? If they acted at that level of rationality then Iran definitely should be demilitarized.
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Jan 10, 2020 13:34
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The question now, more than what led that AA group to launch the missiles, is why air traffic was still allowed in the area given the dispersal of AA units (with their own individual radars not linked to anything larger), the known threat and heightened tension.
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Jan 10, 2020 13:44
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Mozi posted:The question now, more than what led that AA group to launch the missiles, is why air traffic was still allowed in the area given the dispersal of AA units (with their own individual radars not linked to anything larger), the known threat and heightened tension. Poor co-ordination between military and civilian ATC is quite believable. If the Iranian government expected no escalation from the USA, then they might not shut down their own airspace. Which as far as I can tell, was a valid assumption - I don't see any reports the US had air assets anywhere NEAR Tehran in the hours after the Iranian missile salvo. Maybe they saw no response was coming after some hours and made a decision not to close it, maybe they never intended to close it... I agree it would have been *entirely* prudent to pause flight activity.
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Jan 10, 2020 14:08
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https://twitter.com/RealAlexRubi/status/1215465616649392128
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Jan 10, 2020 14:17
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Fojar38 posted:Oh you don't say? Maybe the blame for the result of pulling the trigger should be placed on the people who pulled the trigger perhaps? I, too, am incapable of comprehending any case where multiple parties could be liable for an event.
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Jan 10, 2020 14:51
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This is from a 2018 Jane's articlequote:Air defence is one of the primary pillars of Iranian military strategy, yet until recently Iran’s air defence units had a reputation for aggression as opposed to effectiveness. In 2012 the New York Times cited a classified US intelligence report stating that the Iranians were so anxious about Israeli airstrikes on their nuclear facilities during 2007–08 that they mistakenly fired on civilian aircraft, as well as an Iranian air force F-14 fighter. One incident involved a Tor-M1 mobile surface-to-air missile (SAM) system firing on an airliner in June 2007. The report noted that Iranian communications and training were so poor that “misidentification of aircraft will continue”.
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Jan 10, 2020 14:53
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More confirmation the site is bulldozed https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1215633920961785862
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Jan 10, 2020 15:01
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Also recall that last year or maybe 2018, Syrian air defenses, already engaged in defending against an Israeli air strike, mistakenly shot down a Russian IL-20 Coot reconnaissance aircraft, killing something like 20 people.
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Jan 10, 2020 15:02
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It is fairly impressive that the syrians managed not to shoot down any civilian airliners with the amount of AA missiles they've fired at israeli planes over the last few years. Though they did accudentally shot down a large russian military plane and at one point accifentally hit the island of cyprus. Edit: beaten
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Jan 10, 2020 15:04
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Syrians did bag an F-16I, though.
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Jan 10, 2020 15:06
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Yes, with an ancient s-200 system too. Got to hand it to them.
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Jan 10, 2020 15:08
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Footage from the crash site confirms it's been completely cleared of wreckage https://twitter.com/RuptlyVU/status/1215655709603442688
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Jan 10, 2020 16:51
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Iran: "Oh yeah? Where's your evidence it was a missile???" *quickly removes all possible evidence of a missile*
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Jan 10, 2020 16:53
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Footage from the ground confirms the geolocation we did of the video that showed the apparent missile strike: https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1215660228391460864 https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1215661629842608129
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Jan 10, 2020 18:24
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